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[urban.spaceman]

What's happened to David Lammy?!

 

 

 

[Pliskin]

58 minutes ago, Benguin said:

That's what the left need to figure out. 

 

I think the point is, that the methodology is woeful. As you'll know, from previous exchanges I'm more right leaning on most issues but on this issue I think there is only one position to take. What's different is the how that position is employed. 

 

For me it's not about what a statue represents but rather how dessimation of statues furthers a movement. After the George Floyd murder, 99% of people were rallying behind the movement to dismantle institutional racism and only 1% of people were saying things like "racism doesn't exist" or "all lives matter" that is a great success. Sadly now, 20% are talking about dismantling institutional racism and 80% are talking about why Little Britain was removed from Netflix. That is a great failure for the movement. What's changed? The tactic has regressed to mob mentality. Anyone who sincerely wants institutional racism to be addressed but thinks removing statues is the best way to achieve it is, in my opinion, an embarrassment to the movement. 

 

Let's no longer erect statues of slave traders, let's no longer praise racists, let's teach people about history so they grow up appalled by racism. Let's not use divisive tactics as they always fail. 

 

 

 

I think the message at the start was unity and most people coming together to protest about the social inconsistency that flows through Britain, when it comes to ethnic groups.... I think.

 

 

But then we saw a vast change in this, as pockets of individuals decided to hijack the movement by resorting to violence, and then they saw this as an opportunity to bizarrely turn on British history, it was almost like because it’s a very rare occurrence police shoot anyone in this country, something had to be pulled out to justify to continued protesting and violence. 
 

Bristol I think is purely coincidental, they have been divided about the statue for some time, and I think following the mass gatherings around Britain someone privy to the stance on the statue took action, and everyone else followed. There was probably only a percentage of people pulling the rope to topple Carlston actually knew why they were doing it.

 

The British movement lost its was from that point I feel, defacing war memorials in this country let’s face it is extremely ****ing stupid, if there’s one thing we know this country collectively (or not) cherish is the respect for the fallen soldiers. Subsequently the far right movements came out of the wood work, as an excuse for a bit of a scrap. The message has now all but gone, the streets descended into thuggery and violence and petitions about removing statues that previously no one probably gave two shits about. 
 

It’s now just nonsense, farcical and makes no sense at all. The social media hero’s are brandishing anyone willing to debate a racist, and the retired far right, are pissing on the memorials they promised to protect and causing riots with the cops rather than the opposite they promised to battle with.....

 

Thus, there is nothing I want to see more now than Vardy playing up to empty seats. Frankly, I’m ****ed off.

Edited 14 June 2020 by Pliskin

[Leicester_Loyal]

Makes me think some of these idiots deserve everything that got, shocking.

[CosbehFox]

 

5 hours ago, Benguin said:

That's what the left need to figure out. 

Who is the left though? It's not a singular entity. Thats the difficulty - the statue campaign was led by a Stop Trump group. How do Black Lives Matters as an organisation stop that? Despite what people may suggested, BLM is not a highly sophicated organisation which has money to back itself. It makes you think back to other previous campaigns which had a figurehead to lead the direction of it. 

 

The echo chambers of social media have created a cesspit. Sadly it looks like no one longer recognises that an individual is not representative of an entire group. 

 

The culture wars linked by Putin's investment across the World have truly eased open the divides within society. Chilling. 

 

In the last couple of weeks, I have had serious discussions with my other half about how we could move abroad because there's times I simply detest facets of the society created here. 

 

 

Edited 14 June 2020 by Cardiff_Fox

[nnfox]

The message is lost here because the message here was never that clear.  As I've mentioned before, the killing of George Floyd rightly raised questions about systemic and institutionalised racism in America.  People in America want real change to how certain establishments treat black people, starting with taking a long, hard look at the police.  They can justifiably point to many, many instances of black people having excessive force used against them by the police, not every time with tragic consequences, but very often nevertheless.

 

The UK is different.  Videos of police officers being unjustifiably heavy handed with black people here are thankfully so rare, they're almost non-existent.  So while in America, the public can point to lots of evidence that supports their claim that police are racist, the same cannot be done here.  Without a specific claim, without pointing at specific incidents, the "We want an end to institutional racism" is a very difficult subject to tackle that descends into historical wrongs and TV shows that we can't really do anything about. 

 

Yesterday was the first time I heard of an example of something that can be spoken about.  I think it took place at the Reading protest.  A 13 year old black girl spoke about a situation at school where the class were studying "Of Mice and Men".  She was the only black child in the class and was offended by the teacher, even after expressing her frustration,  by allowing the other students to use the "N" word whilst discussing the book.  Is this an example of institutionalised racism?  Let's talk about that, we might be able to discuss it, come up with some answers and change some things with legislation.

 

Racism by individuals is still the bigger problem.  The idiots in London yesterday brought out everything that represents the worst that this country has to offer.  They are a problem that needs addressing, their individual outdated thoughts, actions and reactions.  They are not easy matters to effectively address and will likely require time (generations) to properly eradicate.

 

 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Makes me think some of these idiots deserve everything that got, shocking.

Yeah I agree but comments like these people and hampering a whole group of people by the actions of one are wrong in this case, as well as BLM last week.

[Shane]

 

 

 

[foxile5]

21 minutes ago, Shane said:

 

 

 

Who's this guy? 

 

Ridiculous pronunciation of Ypres. 

[urban.spaceman]

Meanwhile, in CHAZ...

 

 

 

[Dahnsouff]

13 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Meanwhile, in CHAZ...

 

 

 

WTF is that?

[Strokes]

13 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Meanwhile, in CHAZ...

 

 

 

No wonder they think they can just disband the police, they will outlaw crime.

Unplanned donation

 

[yorkie1999]

4 hours ago, nnfox said:

The message is lost here because the message here was never that clear.  As I've mentioned before, the killing of George Floyd rightly raised questions about systemic and institutionalised racism in America.  People in America want real change to how certain establishments treat black people, starting with taking a long, hard look at the police.  They can justifiably point to many, many instances of black people having excessive force used against them by the police, not every time with tragic consequences, but very often nevertheless.

 

The UK is different.  Videos of police officers being unjustifiably heavy handed with black people here are thankfully so rare, they're almost non-existent.  So while in America, the public can point to lots of evidence that supports their claim that police are racist, the same cannot be done here.  Without a specific claim, without pointing at specific incidents, the "We want an end to institutional racism" is a very difficult subject to tackle that descends into historical wrongs and TV shows that we can't really do anything about. 

 

Yesterday was the first time I heard of an example of something that can be spoken about.  I think it took place at the Reading protest.  A 13 year old black girl spoke about a situation at school where the class were studying "Of Mice and Men".  She was the only black child in the class and was offended by the teacher, even after expressing her frustration,  by allowing the other students to use the "N" word whilst discussing the book.  Is this an example of institutionalised racism?  Let's talk about that, we might be able to discuss it, come up with some answers and change some things with legislation.

 

Racism by individuals is still the bigger problem.  The idiots in London yesterday brought out everything that represents the worst that this country has to offer.  They are a problem that needs addressing, their individual outdated thoughts, actions and reactions.  They are not easy matters to effectively address and will likely require time (generations) to properly eradicate.

 

 

I keep getting notifications from sky about black people being shot by the police but they’re all American. Obviously America has a big race problem and probably always will, but I thought the U.K. had become a pretty well integrated nation so when I see all these marches and protests it seems to me a bit of a kick in the teeth to all those people who, over the years, have changed their attitudes to immigrants into this country. Do we actually have white coppers targeting black youths because of their colour in this country? I know a lot of black lads get arrested in London but, there has been a big problem for years there with turf wars etc. 

[bovril]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/fox-news-monty-python-joke-seattle-protests-a9565506.html

[LCFCbwoi]

6 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

The whole point of a protest is to gain sympathy and therefore support. I bet there's millions of people in this country that now won't show any sympathy and think "let them get on with it" because before this all kicked off there wasn't fighting on the streets, so the protests will have done exactly the opposite of what they set out to do apart from probably gaining more support for the anti blm supporters.

‘Hey, don’t protest against systemic racism just incase you piss the racists off’

[LCFCbwoi]

45 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

I keep getting notifications from sky about black people being shot by the police but they’re all American. Obviously America has a big race problem and probably always will, but I thought the U.K. had become a pretty well integrated nation so when I see all these marches and protests it seems to me a bit of a kick in the teeth to all those people who, over the years, have changed their attitudes to immigrants into this country. Do we actually have white coppers targeting black youths because of their colour in this country? I know a lot of black lads get arrested in London but, there has been a big problem for years there with turf wars etc. 

Probably not then because minorities aren’t protesting in huge numbers for no reason, also the protests are happening in solidarity with what’s going on in America 

[Blue-fox]

6 minutes ago, LCFCbwoi said:

Probably not then because minorities aren’t protesting in huge numbers for no reason, also the protests are happening in solidarity with what’s going on in America 

But why attack our police then? They do not cause any of the same issues. 

[LCFCbwoi]

40 minutes ago, Blue-fox said:

But why attack our police then? They do not cause any of the same issues. 

Tiny, tiny, tiny minority in London, and I don’t think police horses helped the situation. Peaceful protests in Leicester, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool, Coventry and on and on

[hackneyfox]

1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

I keep getting notifications from sky about black people being shot by the police but they’re all American. Obviously America has a big race problem and probably always will, but I thought the U.K. had become a pretty well integrated nation so when I see all these marches and protests it seems to me a bit of a kick in the teeth to all those people who, over the years, have changed their attitudes to immigrants into this country. Do we actually have white coppers targeting black youths because of their colour in this country? I know a lot of black lads get arrested in London but, there has been a big problem for years there with turf wars etc. 

Uh yes

if you’re black and drive a good car you’ll get pulled over.

C4 News couple of nights ago started the programme with a story about a black bank manager.

charged home with possession of fire arms

then money laundering

then people trafficking then threw in gun trafficking on top of that.

Talk to black parents who have to have the conversation with their kids about how  plod will treat them differently from their white friends.

Things have moved in massively from the seventies but it’s still far from perfect.

[Blue-fox]

30 minutes ago, LCFCbwoi said:

Tiny, tiny, tiny minority in London, and I don’t think police horses helped the situation. Peaceful protests in Leicester, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool, Coventry and on and on

The problem is the tiny minority ruin the message. On both sides, any arguments will end up invalid if it ends in riots etc... 

[LCFCbwoi]

6 minutes ago, Blue-fox said:

The problem is the tiny minority ruin the message. On both sides, any arguments will end up invalid if it ends in riots etc... 

No they don’t, you choose to let it ruin the message. Like I said vast majority have been peaceful, what exactly is the counter argument to BLM? 

[nnfox]

49 minutes ago, hackneyfox said:

Uh yes

if you’re black and drive a good car you’ll get pulled over.

C4 News couple of nights ago started the programme with a story about a black bank manager.

charged home with possession of fire arms

then money laundering

then people trafficking then threw in gun trafficking on top of that.

Talk to black parents who have to have the conversation with their kids about how  plod will treat them differently from their white friends.

Things have moved in massively from the seventies but it’s still far from perfect.

 

I've seen the Channel 4 piece. It's a difficult one as it is a very one sided narrative.  The Met can't comment.  The police need to follow up on information they receive.  That follow up might result in nothing, it might result in some action or a lot of action being taken.  Most investigations end with no further action being taken and I would think that money laundering, links to terrorism and firearms would be a more complex investigation and take longer than say a simple punch up in the street.  That said, 26 months sounds like a long time, but is that because the officers investigating have 20 different cases to investigate and are spread too thinly? Or is it purely because the guy is black? The distinction is important if you are saying the police in the UK are still institutionally racist.

 

 

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, hackneyfox said:

Uh yes

if you’re black and drive a good car you’ll get pulled over.

C4 News couple of nights ago started the programme with a story about a black bank manager.

charged home with possession of fire arms

then money laundering

then people trafficking then threw in gun trafficking on top of that.

Talk to black parents who have to have the conversation with their kids about how  plod will treat them differently from their white friends.

Things have moved in massively from the seventies but it’s still far from perfect.

It has, that's perfectly obvious, but that demonstrates that change takes time. Society cannot change over night especially where racial harmony is concerned, but what i'm seeing on the news and in the press is the stirring up of old feelings which i feel has just taken us back 30 years. My childrens generation are a lot more conscious of what can and cannot be said in regards to offending people than my generation  and are consequently less, or not, bothered about racial differences, maybe their children wont even think about racial divides. The pictures and videos i've seen over the last few days seem to be a throwback to the 80's and 90's of football hooligans out for a scrap, i thought all that sh*t was starting to die out, but it obviously hasn't because the mob have been given an excuse to start again. A black guy marching down the street with a megaphone shouting black lives matter is only going to do one thing, and that's start a riot, why give the mob an opportunity to react, that's all i'm saying. And another thought, who actually said that black lives don't matter?

[Blue-fox]

52 minutes ago, LCFCbwoi said:

No they don’t, you choose to let it ruin the message. Like I said vast majority have been peaceful, what exactly is the counter argument to BLM? 

I would guess it’s to protect British history. 

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, LCFCbwoi said:

No they don’t, you choose to let it ruin the message. Like I said vast majority have been peaceful, what exactly is the counter argument to BLM? 

Well the counter argument is who said that black lives don't matter.

[The Horse's Mouth]

1 hour ago, LCFCbwoi said:

No they don’t, you choose to let it ruin the message. Like I said vast majority have been peaceful, what exactly is the counter argument to BLM? 

I dont think defunding our already under funded law enforcement is a smart big brained idea personally