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[Captain...]

On 14/06/2020 at 12:16, foxile5 said:

The left wing has been an embarrassment, frankly. 

 

There was potential for change and discourse. Instead they rallied about taking down statues in some meaningless gesture politic attempt and resulted in provoking an aggressive right. 

 

Any chance for change has been dissipated this weekend. Well done left wing. You all instagrammed yourselves mucking about with a statue. Ugh. 

 

Or the media has turned the debate into one about statues and Fawlty Towers. The overwhelming majority of people who support BLM want to peacefully demonstrate their support for black lives.

 

23 hours ago, Strokes said:

Just what the movement wanted, tokenism.

Is there a black person around here that can read, anyone will do. Who cares they are any good or not.

 

It's only tokenism if they are there to make the show look more woke. If they have actually realised that black voices are largely not heard and marginalised on prime time tv and realise that they can do something positive about it then it is not tokenism.

 

5 hours ago, RobHawk said:

BLM lost me when they went after comedy. Im a big believer in freedom of speech and beleive no topic cannot be joked about. 

 

I could understand the peaceful protests, I could understand the non peaceful side of things was a small minority, I thought the Edward Colton statue was a landmark moment. 

 

I support equal rights for everyone, and I don't mean that in an 'all lives matter' way. I mean as in equality for women is also a big issue at the moment. 

 

But BLM lost me, I don't know what the movement is trying to achieve in the UK and beleive some of the impacts are detrimental to everyone in society.

 

BLM did not go after comedy, you could argue they held up a mirror to society and caused a lot of people to reflect on their own output and the content they are providing. Then that is an unintended positive consequence. Nobody on the protests were calling for Little Britain to be cancelled or Fawlty Towers to be censored. That came from within.

 

1 hour ago, simFox said:

This is hugely offensive and sums up everything wrong with the BLM movement. My wife is black and my kids are mixed race, but I don't support BLM, so I guess I must be racist? 

 

To be honest, none of this crap going on today is helping. None of it.

 

 

 

This is a large overreaction to the actions of a tiny minority. BLM is a huge cause that is supported by a huge cross section of society the overwhelming majority just believe the central cause that Black Lives Matter and are sick of the direct and indirect racism that is seen everyday. The problem is it is such a wide reaching message that it will encompass some absolute ****s with in it's support. Don't let them destroy this movement. Call out their actions not a huge movement of 99% peaceful people.

 

39 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Is it any wonder that ethnic minorities are likely to be further down the Socioeconomic ladder, when many arrive here with little to nothing? It’d be far more beneficial to look a bit more in depth at raw figures.

I agree that we can't take stats at face value, but we also need to look at the overwhelming non statistical evidence of pretty much every single BAME person has experienced some for of racism in this country.

[Pliskin]

14 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Certainly a contributing factor, but many of these families came over at a similar time to other demographics who have struggled far less, on the whole. Surely those whom were born in Britain and are second/third or even fourth generation migrants shouldn't be facing the same issues decades on? 

 

I agree with your point on the first one, but it also needs to be countered against the number of arrests and sentencing too. Black people are seemingly in that situation, rightly or wrongly, far more consistently than other demographics and that then allows for other statistics to be skewed unfavorably. 

 

Recent and studies have suggested that the third one can be at least partially attributed to racial abuse and depression, anxiety and the like have risen alongside increased hate crime, so that is seemingly a factor at play. There are other factors too such as toxic masculinity being ingrained in some black culture and consequently a black man discussing his feelings is more taboo than it should be. 

 

I know next to nothing about the childbirth issue, but it's certainly an interesting and worrying statistic. I'd have to look further into it to discuss further.

 

Schools can certainly be attributed to socioeconomic issues. Growing up in poorer backgrounds and having access to poorer schools would be a significant starting point, then other factors like grooming into gangs, crime, lack of opportunities in later school life etc too in certain areas. 

 

The sentencing figure is perhaps the most startling. The legal system needs an overhaul in many areas, the demographics are starting to change but it remains full of old, rich, white and out of touch men and the access to a fair trial is not as straight forwards as it should be, ironic given today being the anniversary of the Magna Carta. I'm also still not overly keen on trial by jury because far too many people in this country have prejudices of varying degrees. There are various studies that show juries are predisposed to choose a guilty verdict also, so when you consider that a disproportionate number of black people are on trial it certainly adds up.

 

We still live in a country whereby plenty of parents would be uncomfortable or even angry if their child brought home a black partner and that prejudice would undoubtedly follow into work, even if much of it is subconscious.  

Excellent post. And the same to be said to @Innovindil too for raising more excellent points. 

[Blue-fox]

12 hours ago, LCFCbwoi said:

Apart from a few idiots vandalising a statue, no ones trying to tarnish British history apart from bringing to light this countries past? 

But what’s the point? All it causes is grief. Not one man is perfect and during the times that they lived that was probably a representation of how life was. Nowadays it’s different, but you can’t paint people in a bad light by judging modern day standards to the standards back then. It’s pointless. 

[urban.spaceman]

11 hours ago, leicsmac said:

...I'm going to assume that there is a point to these posts and it is "look how we do when we're without police!" or is this all purely for the lulz?

 

For the lulz. I love how batshit crazy America is!

[RobHawk]

3 hours ago, theessexfox said:

Just to reiterate what @StanSP said, when exactly did ‘BLM’ go after comedy? Might it not be a little disingenuous to equate a few dispersed calls on Twitter for shows to be removed (and a degree of pre-emption from some broadcasters given the current climate) with the entire movement for racial justice?

I don't use Twitter so can only base my opinion on the end result which I feel is wrong and reactionary. 

 

Do I still support equal rights? Of course, but BLM in the UK seems like a lost puppy, trying to act up like the big bad dog it looks up to (US). 

 

Not only that but I've seen people call these comedy's racist (which I don't believe they are) and call out people with this differing view as racist. I responded in this thread because someone said that not supporting BLM makes someone a racist which I think is ludicrous. 

 

I have no issue with BLM, I'm not against it, but I'm no longer sure what it's really trying to achieve in the UK In order to support it. 

 

 

[leicsmac]

Random Internet find on life as a black person in the US. Verbose, eloquent and shows just how much more needs to be done.

 

"I grew up in Reno, Nevada.

In third grade a boy confidently tells me and my brother that his mom said black people cannot swim because our muscles are different than those of white people.

In middle school, standing among a group of white classmates talking video games, I am the only black child. One classmate expresses surprise that my family has enough money to afford a PlayStation.

In high school, I am the only black kid among a group of friends. When sharing drinks in my presence they frequently tell each other not to “niggerlip” the bottles. Even though I object, they continue to use the phrase.

In high school, my brother is at a teen house party that gets broken up by police, a common occurrence. The kids at the party scatter, also a common occurrence. My brother, the only black child in attendance, is the only one on whom a police officer draws a firearm to get him to stop running away. He is 14.

In high school, a group of my white friends frequently sneak on to the outdoor basketball courts at an athletic club to play. They can usually play for hours, including with club members. On the two occasions I attend, club members complain and we are ejected from the club within minutes.

In high school, I am excited about black history month and am talking to a friend about black inventors. My friend snorts and says, “Black people have never invented anything.”

In high school, as graduation approaches, many of my white friends tell me that I am lucky. They tell me that due to my skin color, I will get into any college I want.

I remain in Reno for college.

During college an employer keeps food for employees in the break room refrigerator. One morning I decided to have microwaveable chicken wings for breakfast. The employer tells me I might not want to eat that for breakfast with my skin color. The employer immediately apologizes.

In college I am standing in a group of white friends on campus. A white acquaintance of one of my friends approaches to chat. The acquaintance tells a story about something that frustrated him and then reels off a series of expletives ending with the word, “n*****.” None of my friends corrects him.

In college I visit an antique shop in Auburn, California with my girlfriend, who is white, and her parents. The shopkeeper follows me around the store whistling loudly as I browse, until we leave.

I move to San Diego, California for law school.

In law school, during a discussion in my criminal law class, a white classmate suggests that police officers should take a suspect’s race into account when determining whether there is reasonable suspicion to believe that an individual is committing a crime.

The weekend of my law school graduation my family comes to San Diego. I go to the mall with my brother and sister and visit the Burberry store. Two different employees follow us around the store – never speaking to us – until we leave.

After law school, I return to Reno.

A co-worker jokingly calls me “King David” upon seeing me each day. I joke that I’m not treated like a king. The co-worker then begins to call me “Slave David” each time we encounter one another. When I ask the co-worker to stop because it is hurtful, I am told by my co-worker that this is a problem that I have in my head.

I attend a pub crawl with friends. We end up at a party in a hotel suite in downtown Reno. I am greeted by a white man at the door who loudly expresses surprise that I am an “educated negro” upon hearing me speak.

I walk a friend who is a white woman from a restaurant to her car because it is night time. As we stand by the car chatting, a police officer pulls up and shines a light on us, asking if everything is okay. Once my friend confirms, the officer drives away. I tell her that he was worried about her, she teasingly says, “Oh yeah, because you’re so scary.” Later, I tell another white friend I felt racially profiled by the officer. My friend shrugs and says, “I don’t know man, that’s a stretch.”

A white friend tells me that white voters have become upset at black people because of black people’s liberal use of food welfare benefits. When I point out that more whites than blacks receive welfare benefits in the U.S., my friend expresses confusion at how that could be the case.

I leave a downtown restaurant with my wife. As we walk along the river a homeless man appears to be having a schizophrenic episode, engaging auditory hallucinations. Upon seeing me, he becomes lucid and begins to shout the word “n*****” over and over.

I discover that one of my clients does not want me to represent him as his Public Defender because he does not want a black attorney. I am given the option to withdraw as counsel. I do not.

Last year, I am at a barbecue chatting with a white acquaintance who asks if I have ever experienced racism. When I say it is a nearly daily occurrence, the acquaintance retorts, without missing a beat, “Bullshit.”

Two months ago. I am driving to lunch with the black teen I mentor. At a red light a white woman crosses the street. As I begin to drive, she turns around and screams at us, “F**k you f****ing n*****!”

Before any of these instances, my family of origin moved to Reno, Nevada from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in 1984.

My mother recently told me that when I was a very young child my parents hired a company to remove a tree from our front lawn. Two white men showed up and removed the tree. One of them carved a swastika into the stump. My father had to confront him and ask him to remove it.

Before that, my now 93 -year-old grandfather served in the Army National Guard and was stationed in the U.S. south. Despite being active duty, he was not allowed to eat in restaurants due to “whites only” signage. He had to wait for fellow Guardsmen to bring him food outside.

Not long before that, my family were slaves, owned by Americans of English and Irish descent, which is why – despite being primarily of African descent – I have an English last name.

This is my experience of being black in America. To be black in America is to be told over and over that you are not good enough, that you do not belong, that you are genetically unfit, that your physical presence is undesirable, and that everything about you – right down to your lips – is wrong. It is absolutely true that everyone experiences hardships in life, but the psychological weight of being told both explicitly and implicitly, on a daily basis, that your very existence is objectionable can at times feel unbearable.

And despite this experience, I still love my country, my state, and my city. Despite my experience, I would not choose to be anything other than a black American. The history of black people in this country is one of struggle and triumph. Our people were brought to this country as slaves and against all odds, in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles, have made our mark. Through slavery, poll taxes, literacy tests, redlining, and black codes we have persevered. Through the unspeakable horrors of mass lynchings; the Tuskegee syphilis experiments; and the massacres at Tulsa and Rosewood, we have persevered.

Bass Reeves, Dovey Johnson Roundtree, Sarah Boone, Oscar Micheaux, Shirley Chisholm, Dorie Miller, Susie King Taylor, Georgia Gilmore, Octavius Catto, Jack Johnson, Garrett Morgan, James W.C. Pennington. These are just a handful of extraordinary and oft forgotten black Americans who helped to mold and preserve the American Dream. These individuals and their accomplishments should not be regarded as “black history,” but rather as American history.

I am an American of privilege, which makes me an African American of great privilege. I am an attorney. I live in a safe neighborhood. My children do not worry about their next meal. I can afford child care. My family can afford personal vehicles. If my children become sick, I can take them to the doctor. If I am this privileged, and these have been my experiences, primarily in my own hometown, often with friends and acquaintances who are fond of me, and of whom I remain fond even now; just imagine what daily life must be like for a black person in this country who does not enjoy my level of privilege.

The protests in the streets of America are certainly about the killing of George Floyd, but not just about George Floyd. They are about countless black men, women, and children for whom the punishment did not fit the crime – if indeed there was a crime at all. We live in a country where, in order to recall what life under Jim Crow felt like, many white Americans must pick up a history book. Meanwhile, many black Americans need only pick up a telephone, and call their parents.

When we as people of color share our experiences, we are not doing so to score political points, “play the race card,” get sympathy, assign blame, or to make you feel bad about yourself. We are asking you for help. We are asking you to join us in the ongoing fight against racism in our country, because we cannot do it alone. It will take Americans of every stripe to eradicate racism from American society.

I am now asking for your help. Please seek truth and knowledge. When sharing information, please check your sources and make sure that they are reliable. Try to place what is happening today into a historical context. Read about systemic racism and anti-racism. When your friends of color tell you that racism is real and affecting their lives, believe them and then, if you can, do something about it.

My children are likely to attend the same middle school and high school that I did. It is my great hope for them that those around them have the knowledge, compassion, and guidance to know better than to daily deluge them with words that make them doubt their intelligence, their beauty, and their worth as human beings based only on the color of their skin; and instead judge them by the content of their character.

It is for all of the above reasons, and so many more that we proudly say #blacklivesmatter"

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Captain... said:

 

 

I agree that we can't take stats at face value, but we also need to look at the overwhelming non statistical evidence of pretty much every single BAME person has experienced some for of racism in this country.

As has everyone from the LBGTQ....community. Unfortunately some people will always be racist or homophobic. You can educate it to a point but some people will always preference their own group and that doesn’t exclude any demographic. I know walk into a hosiery factory in Leicester that I maintain, has Indian bosses and must be 95% Indian workers. Does that make them racist?

 

We have to look at why certain groups are achieving better than others sure, but if you’re going to claim it’s racist until it’s perfectly balanced then it will never not be racist.

There are so many variables and there are minority communities doing far better than the black community. Given that integration should be easier for most on religious grounds, why is that?

[The Horse's Mouth]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

 

 

That's really daft

[Captain...]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

As has everyone from the LBGTQ....community. Unfortunately some people will always be racist or homophobic. You can educate it to a point but some people will always preference their own group and that doesn’t exclude any demographic. I know walk into a hosiery factory in Leicester that I maintain, has Indian bosses and must be 95% Indian workers. Does that make them racist?

 

We have to look at why certain groups are achieving better than others sure, but if you’re going to claim it’s racist until it’s perfectly balanced then it will never not be racist.

There are so many variables and there are minority communities doing far better than the black community. Given that integration should be easier for most on religious grounds, why is that?

Not saying everything has to be statistically equal to prove there is no racism, in fact the opposite. Even if you can disprove all of those statistics as being evidence of systemic racism in Britain, it is clear there is still a problem by the fact that virtually every BAME person living here has experienced racism on one level or another.

[Innovindil]

35 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Recent and studies have suggested that the third one can be at least partially attributed to racial abuse and depression, anxiety and the like have risen alongside increased hate crime, so that is seemingly a factor at play. There are other factors too such as toxic masculinity being ingrained in some black culture and consequently a black man discussing his feelings is more taboo than it should be. 

I saw a video on the BBC the other day where a reporter was talking to a few black people about their experiences. One young man discribed being racially abused but never reporting it. So whilst other reports are in the works it seems a good place to start. Won't fix all the problems surely but it's something we can do now. In the style of the covid simpleton response. 

 

See racism. 

Report racism. 

Fight racism. 

 

The more reports there are, the greater the chance of seeing these idiots punished. 

[LCFCbwoi]

13 minutes ago, Blue-fox said:

But what’s the point? All it causes is grief. Not one man is perfect and during the times that they lived that was probably a representation of how life was. Nowadays it’s different, but you can’t paint people in a bad light by judging modern day standards to the standards back then. It’s pointless. 

Of course you can, so Edward Colston wasn’t a bad person because slavery was perfectly ‘legal’ when he was alive? I’m not really arsed about the statues but to suggest that we shouldn’t be teaching people about the realities of historic figures because it might ‘cause some grief’ is ridiculous IMHO. let’s present a balanced argument about historic figures, and suggest why they shouldn’t or wouldn’t be revered in modern day due to their actions, whether that be Churchill, Gandhi etc.

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Not saying everything has to be statistically equal to prove there is no racism, in fact the opposite. Even if you can disprove all of those statistics as being evidence of systemic racism in Britain, it is clear there is still a problem by the fact that virtually every BAME person living here has experienced racism on one level or another.

I don’t disagree there is a problem at all. I’ve witnessed racism countless times, although much less these days.

I just think we shouldn’t need to prove there isn’t systematic racism, it needs to be proved. Raw statistics doesn’t do that.

[twoleftfeet]

I graduated from university about 6 years ago and let me relay to you what I observed on my first day the black boys sat with the black boys, the black girls sat with the black girls the white boys sat with the white boys and the white girls sat with the white boys. I as the 45 year old sat on my own initially. whilst not scientific I do think we like to be with people like us. I would like to think it wasn't for racist reasons but perhaps it was and the safety in numbers thing. 

[StanSP]

11 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

That's really daft

The sentence or what he did? 

[Dahnsouff]

The answer is for all parties to agree the rules of what classifies racism.

If you can do that, you can classify it, if you can classify it you can spot it, you can record/report it. Then you can educate and (largely) eradicate it.

[LCFCbwoi]

7 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

I saw a video on the BBC the other day where a reporter was talking to a few black people about their experiences. One young man discribed being racially abused but never reporting it. So whilst other reports are in the works it seems a good place to start. Won't fix all the problems surely but it's something we can do now. In the style of the covid simpleton response. 

 

See racism. 

Report racism. 

Fight racism. 

 

The more reports there are, the greater the chance of seeing these idiots punished. 

It would be a great place to start, however I think the legalities you’d have to go through would just be such a long process, especially without any strong evidence. I think education will be key, but I have high hopes looking at the age of people turning up to these protests

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

The answer is for all parties to agree the rules of what classifies racism.

If you can do that, you can classify it, if you can classify it you can spot it, you can record/report it. Then you can educate and (largely) eradicate it.

As things stand the victim only has to believe it to be racially motivated for it to be recorded as so.

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, Strokes said:

As things stand the victim only has to believe it to be racially motivated for it to be recorded as so.

The question then becomes a legal one I presume of proving said guilt.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

The question then becomes a legal one I presume of proving said guilt.

They are for crime statistics, not conviction statistics. Which I would guess would be a better one to guide us.

Edited 15 June 2020 by Strokes

[Captain...]

1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

The answer is for all parties to agree the rules of what classifies racism.

If you can do that, you can classify it, if you can classify it you can spot it, you can record/report it. Then you can educate and (largely) eradicate it.

So does that include the N word?

 

Even when used by former army major on a light entertainment show?

 

(Sorry probably shouldn't reopen that can of worms)

 

What your suggesting is largely impossible unless you go down the quota route like they did in South Africa. Enforced equality doesn't really work. 

 

What is and isn't considered offensive will change over time and can't really be defined. I would love to get to a point where a kid can "black up" to dress up as his favourite footballer or superhero and nobody would bat an eyelid because skin colour is nothing more than superficial skin colour. If it is defined as a racist act then we will never get there.

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

They are for crime statistics, not conviction statistics. Which would I guess would be a better one to guide us.

Sorry, not sure I get that!  Just trying to understand. You originally said

 

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

As things stand the victim only has to believe it to be racially motivated for it to be recorded as so.

So are you saying we should just the statistics  for recorded case rather than criminally proven cases?

[Innovindil]

2 minutes ago, Captain... said:

So does that include the N word?

 

Ironically I'm at work listening to music while running my machine and I'm still not sure whether I'm allowed to sing along to Jay z when he uses the N word. 

 

Needs settling tbh. Probably not urgently... 

[Captain...]

Just now, Innovindil said:

Ironically I'm at work listening to music while running my machine and I'm still not sure whether I'm allowed to sing along to Jay z when he uses the N word. 

 

Needs settling tbh. Probably not urgently... 

Probably not, just to be on the safe side.

[ozleicester]

I will just pop this in here...

In New South Wales...
83% of INDIGENOUS people with cannabis charges go before the courts

52% of NON indigenous people with cannabis charges go before the courts
Hidden racism

Also...

Aboriginal drivers received 3.2 times more fines from being pulled over by police than non-Aboriginal drivers. But when tickets were issued by traffic cameras, Aboriginal drivers received slightly fewer penalties on average than non-Aboriginal drivers.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/feb/05/aboriginal-drivers-in-wa-more-likely-to-get-fines-from-police-officers-than-traffic-cameras

Systemic racism

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Captain... said:

So does that include the N word?

 

Even when used by former army major on a light entertainment show?

 

(Sorry probably shouldn't reopen that can of worms)

 

What your suggesting is largely impossible unless you go down the quota route like they did in South Africa. Enforced equality doesn't really work. 

 

What is and isn't considered offensive will change over time and can't really be defined. I would love to get to a point where a kid can "black up" to dress up as his favourite footballer or superhero and nobody would bat an eyelid because skin colour is nothing more than superficial skin colour. If it is defined as a racist act then we will never get there.

Oh for sure - the bolded part is the holy grail of inclusivity.

Not really sure what the way forward is, and the more you consider what it means to be racist, the more complex the question becomes.

Like all perceived crimes, it needs definitions to allow it be regarded as a punitive offence. (Assuming here, resident lawyer type please correct!)