The Politics Thread 2020

[StanSP]

16 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

1. Government provides a further £100 billion to sure up the economy
2. Dominic Raab which does not tally with popularist opinion

Which one to discuss most?

 

When did optics become more important than actions? 

 

7 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Never even mind the money slapped in, the mere news that the hit to the economy is expected to be less than originally thought (though still big) should at least give us 5 minutes of cheer. 

Sorry, you make it sound like everyone has ignored the good points which is just inherently untrue. Dare I say 'point scoring'? You guys love that phrase

 

Let me just get it straight. I know I said I can't be arsed but turns out for 5 minutes I am again

 

Government providing money for the protection and safety of the economy - obviously good. Who has said otherwise? Please do enlighten me/us. 

 

Government spending **** loads on a plane re-paint/re-brand job when most times it could be vastly cheaper smacks of misaligned priorities (don't know if any of you noticed but they just had to U-turn and be persuaded not to let kids go hungry!). Why does the repaint have to be done right now?! What's the urgency? Can nearly £1m go to anywhere else? Is it just to look good across the world? Nah, not buying it. More pressing matters to tend to or perhaps better ways to spend the money. Not least during a pandemic. 

 

Can you imagine how much rage you'd be feeling if, say for instance, Corbyn or Starmer was in charge and they chose to spend 900k on a paint job at the time of crisis? You would all be up in arms and going crazy. 

 

Also, regarding whether it went to tender - can that info be made public? I genuinely don't know but it'd be good to know who was considered, if anyone, or was it just given to one of their buddies to keep them sweet? Like when they awarded that PPE contract to a pest controller. Doesn't look too good and does come across questionable... 

 

I hope this post doesn't get deleted/I don't get suspended because it's not meant to be antagonistic or cause mad personal arguments. 

[Voll Blau]

32 minutes ago, Strokes said:

What good did our say actually do in such matters?

A fair few here for starters:

 

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-in-brussels-had-been-far-greater-than-recognised/

 

According to this we also backed more than 97% of EU laws passed in the past 12 years:

 

https://encompass-europe.com/comment/analysing-the-uks-influence-in-eu-policy-making

 

 

Moot point now though ennit. We're out and that's that.

[Mickyblueeyes]

3 hours ago, StanSP said:

Oh come on! 

 

 

For an ex-magic circle lawyer, Dominic Raab really doesnt think things through before he speaks. I appreciate everyone has opinions on the gestures and movements of the BLM. However, this is a movement not just gripping the nation but the world at present. Referencing Game of Thrones and showing a complete disregard for background research as to why certain things are being done is just not on for a ****ing cabinet secretary and future PM hopeful. He should know the background story! End of. 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

A fair few here for starters:

 

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-in-brussels-had-been-far-greater-than-recognised/

 

According to this we also backed more than 97% of EU laws passed in the past 12 years:

 

https://encompass-europe.com/comment/analysing-the-uks-influence-in-eu-policy-making

 

 

Moot point now though ennit. We're out and that's that.

I just think it’s ironic those that say we have little to no power in our exit and future negotiations are often the same that say we had a big voice within. We are either a big player or we aren’t.

[davieG]

37 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I would imagine it’s possibly sealed bids, so unless it’s incredibly underhand then no.

There are exceptions for national security but as we haven’t used them before, it would leave us wide open for legal action.

The French seem to manage it 

 

 A bit old but I'd guess it's not a lot different now.

 

By Kim Willsher in Paris

12:01AM BST 07 Apr 2002

 

FRANCE has the worst record of all European countries for flouting European Union regulations and failing to implement community directives, according to latest figures from Brussels.

A new "name and shame" report reveals that the French break more free market agreements than any other EU country and are the slowest to adopt agreed trading legislation. Of 1,500 internal market infringements under investigation by the European Commission, France heads the list with 224 followed by Italy with 192. Britain has been found guilty of 76.

 

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, davieG said:

The French seem to manage it 

 

 A bit old but I'd guess it's not a lot different now.

 

By Kim Willsher in Paris

12:01AM BST 07 Apr 2002

 

FRANCE has the worst record of all European countries for flouting European Union regulations and failing to implement community directives, according to latest figures from Brussels.

A new "name and shame" report reveals that the French break more free market agreements than any other EU country and are the slowest to adopt agreed trading legislation. Of 1,500 internal market infringements under investigation by the European Commission, France heads the list with 224 followed by Italy with 192. Britain has been found guilty of 76.

 

This is our trouble, we are far too obedient

 

[Leicester_Loyal]

2 hours ago, Bilo said:

Weekly u-turns after initially doubling down on their previous position, including somehow getting politically outmanouevered by a 22-year-old footballer, is massively worrying ahead of already mishandled Brexit negotiations entering the final stages. 

 

A lot of the people saying it's worrying that Rashford 'politically outmanouevered' the Government or whatever they want to call it, would be calling for the Governments head if they had doubled down and refused to offer out the meal vouchers. We'd see the usual cries of 'Tory *****' 'Ivory Towers' etc. I for one am glad they decided to offer out the vouchers and ensure kids don't starve to death.

[Innovindil]

19 minutes ago, StanSP said:

 

Sorry, you make it sound like everyone has ignored the good points which is just inherently untrue. Dare I say 'point scoring'? You guys love that phrase

 

Let me just get it straight. I know I said I can't be arsed but turns out for 5 minutes I am again

 

Government providing money for the protection and safety of the economy - obviously good. Who has said otherwise? Please do enlighten me/us. 

 

Government spending **** loads on a plane re-paint/re-brand job when most times it could be vastly cheaper smacks of misaligned priorities (don't know if any of you noticed but they just had to U-turn and be persuaded not to let kids go hungry!). Why does the repaint have to be done right now?! What's the urgency? Can nearly £1m go to anywhere else? Is it just to look good across the world? Nah, not buying it. More pressing matters to tend to or perhaps better ways to spend the money. Not least during a pandemic. 

 

Can you imagine how much rage you'd be feeling if, say for instance, Corbyn or Starmer was in charge and they chose to spend 900k on a paint job at the time of crisis? You would all be up in arms and going crazy. 

 

Also, regarding whether it went to tender - can that info be made public? I genuinely don't know but it'd be good to know who was considered, if anyone, or was it just given to one of their buddies to keep them sweet? Like when they awarded that PPE contract to a pest controller. Doesn't look too good and does come across questionable... 

 

I hope this post doesn't get deleted/I don't get suspended because it's not meant to be antagonistic or cause mad personal arguments. 

Was there any other information provided with this story? Did they get the asked for ppe? For the right price? On time? Hard to get outraged at something without all of the information... Don't you think? 

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

A lot of the people saying it's worrying that Rashford 'politically outmanouevered' the Government or whatever they want to call it, would be calling for the Governments head if they had doubled down and refused to offer out the meal vouchers. We'd see the usual cries of 'Tory *****' 'Ivory Towers' etc. I for one am glad they decided to offer out the vouchers and ensure kids don't starve to death.

Hear hear. The government u-turning is somehow seen as a bad thing. Which baffles me more than anything. Either we want a government that listens, or we want a dictatorship... Which ironically people were screaming from minute 1.

[Finnaldo]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

This is our trouble, we are far too obedient

 

In a nutshell, pretty much. I imagine we continued to be to build at least some goodwill in negotiations. 
 

I personally voted Remain but I’m not Pro-EU, it was more pragmatic that I don’t think we have much to gain and more to lose leaving than any allegiance. There’s far too much overreach in the organisation and in my view it would be better simply as a trading bloc with FOM and some low-level political forum. For all it’s supposed power, it’s silence over the Guardia Civil brutalising Catalonians, Hungary’s move to authoritarianism and failures in assisting Italy proficiently show its a lot more bluster. As davieG’s story show, the more obedient pushovers get punished and the p!sstakers get to keep pushing. Even my friend, who’s a pretty ardent European Federalist, feels the EU shouldn’t have really expanded past West Europe, or did so far too early at the least. 
 

This is all pretty derailed from the initial chat, but whilst I feel we would’ve been better leveraging our power in the EU with Italy and other detractor nations, it’s in the past and I hope once we can sort a deal we start focusing on as much local manufacturing/production as we can realistically achieve today, I don’t want all the bluster to be for us to sell ourselves wholesale to stronger powers.

[David Guiza]

18 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

For an ex-magic circle lawyer, Dominic Raab really doesnt think things through before he speaks. I appreciate everyone has opinions on the gestures and movements of the BLM. However, this is a movement not just gripping the nation but the world at present. Referencing Game of Thrones and showing a complete disregard for background research as to why certain things are being done is just not on for a ****ing cabinet secretary and future PM hopeful. He should know the background story! End of. 

Perhaps that's why he barely lasted there, he was destroyed by people in the profession during the leadership debate. A particular favourite quote from the time:-

 

'every self-satisfied magic circle trainee every other lawyer has ever dealt with,’ adding that the debate was ‘basically him boasting on a Friday night in the Pitcher and Piano about the latest deal he’s done the photocopying on'

 

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

A lot of the people saying it's worrying that Rashford 'politically outmanouevered' the Government or whatever they want to call it, would be calling for the Governments head if they had doubled down and refused to offer out the meal vouchers. We'd see the usual cries of 'Tory *****' 'Ivory Towers' etc. I for one am glad they decided to offer out the vouchers and ensure kids don't starve to death.

 

4 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Hear hear. The government u-turning is somehow seen as a bad thing. Which baffles me more than anything. Either we want a government that listens, or we want a dictatorship... Which ironically people were screaming from minute 1.

It's a double bind, absolutely - they were damned either way.

 

The solution to that was, of course, being aware of and acting on the situation before Mr Rashford felt he had to get involved - if such a thing was indeed possible.

[David Guiza]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

 

It's a double bind, absolutely - they were damned either way.

 

The solution to that was, of course, being aware of and acting on the situation before Mr Rashford felt he had to get involved - if such a thing was indeed possible.

Also worth mentioning that teachers had been campaigning prior to Rashford's involvement and their calls fell on deaf ears, it was only due to the heft of Rashford that it gained any traction. 

[Dahnsouff]

23 minutes ago, StanSP said:

 

Sorry, you make it sound like everyone has ignored the good points which is just inherently untrue. Dare I say 'point scoring'? You guys love that phrase

 

Let me just get it straight. I know I said I can't be arsed but turns out for 5 minutes I am again

 

1 Government providing money for the protection and safety of the economy - obviously good. Who has said otherwise? Please do enlighten me/us. 

 

2 Government spending **** loads on a plane re-paint/re-brand job when most times it could be vastly cheaper smacks of misaligned priorities (don't know if any of you noticed but they just had to U-turn and be persuaded not to let kids go hungry!). Why does the repaint have to be done right now?! What's the urgency? Can nearly £1m go to anywhere else? Is it just to look good across the world? Nah, not buying it. More pressing matters to tend to or perhaps better ways to spend the money. Not least during a pandemic. 

 

3 Can you imagine how much rage you'd be feeling if, say for instance, Corbyn or Starmer was in charge and they chose to spend 900k on a paint job at the time of crisis? You would all be up in arms and going crazy. 

 

Also, regarding whether it went to tender - can that info be made public? I genuinely don't know but it'd be good to know who was considered, if anyone, or was it just given to one of their buddies to keep them sweet? Like when they awarded that PPE contract to a pest controller. Doesn't look too good and does come across questionable... 

 

I hope this post doesn't get deleted/I don't get suspended because it's not meant to be antagonistic or cause mad personal arguments. 

You know you love it

 

Each point in turn then

1 Its not about saying something is good, its about only saying something is bad

2  I have no idea how much much a plane paint job is  

However, the fact you spent time responding to this point rather than the previous one does indicate some preference for the bad, as mentioned in point 1

3 I know I may come across as a Tory, but I am not, nor Labour, largely indifferent but just want a fair fight. 

 

I understand that it is, at least in part, for the government to be under perpetual scrutiny, however, the fervour with which people turn over every stone to do so, whilst wilfully forgiving the opposition, is slightly weird. So no, point scoring was not mentioned, but it is certainly there in spirit! 

 

Finally, if your above post got deleted, it wasn't me!

 

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

In a nutshell, pretty much. I imagine we continued to be to build at least some goodwill in negotiations. 
 

I personally voted Remain but I’m not Pro-EU, it was more pragmatic that I don’t think we have much to gain and more to lose leaving than any allegiance. There’s far too much overreach in the organisation and in my view it would be better simply as a trading bloc with FOM and some low-level political forum. For all it’s supposed power, it’s silence over the Guardia Civil brutalising Catalonians, Hungary’s move to authoritarianism and failures in assisting Italy proficiently show its a lot more bluster. As davieG’s story show, the more obedient pushovers get punished and the p!sstakers get to keep pushing. Even my friend, who’s a pretty ardent European Federalist, feels the EU shouldn’t have really expanded past West Europe, or did so far too early at the least. 
 

This is all pretty derailed from the initial chat, but whilst I feel we would’ve been better leveraging our power in the EU with Italy and other detractor nations, it’s in the past and I hope once we can sort a deal we start focusing on as much local manufacturing/production as we can realistically achieve today, I don’t want all the bluster to be for us to sell ourselves wholesale to stronger powers.

I said before the referendum and after, that people that support left wing politics should naturally be more Eurosceptic than those on the right. And it’s like the argument flips when when we talk about the EU and everyone swaps seats

 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, David Guiza said:

Also worth mentioning that teachers had been campaigning prior to Rashford's involvement and their calls fell on deaf ears, it was only due to the heft of Rashford that it gained any traction. 

Then it certainly was possible to consider such action before all of this became big news and as such I don't have much sympathy for them being caught in the aforementioned double bind due to lack of foresight.

[Innovindil]

So looking into this pest control firm that got awarded a big government contract. Again, not seeing where the outrage should be. 

 

The company said they have procured and distributed protective equipment from Chinese suppliers for the past 15 years and that their small team was nonetheless spanning three continents. 

 

They described themselves as a “family-run business that has the unique ability to secure production at specialised medical PPE manufacturing plants” and “provide these vital items at a time when the entire world was chasing diminishing supplies.” 

 

A Pestfix spokesperson said that the company was “proud” of the work they had done. 

 

"Our team has worked non-stop for the past 78 days to support efforts of getting PPE to the frontline involving an ongoing and herculean logistics operation,” he said. 

 

The company told OCCRP it had already delivered millions of items to the NHS and was “on track” to deliver tens of millions more. 

 

So they've been picked in an emergency situation resulting in there being no open tender for the contract, but they're delivering exactly what they said they would. Ain't the size of the dog in the fight boys, it's the size of the fight (and big ****ing contacts) in the dog. 

 

Next outrage please. 

 

 

[Finnaldo]

Just now, Strokes said:

I said before the referendum and after, that people that support left wing politics should naturally be more Eurosceptic than those on the right. And it’s like the argument flips when when we talk about the EU and everyone swaps seats

I think it speaks to what the Frankenstein’s Monster the whole Brexit saga became, you were Remain or Leave which makes it incredibly hard to discuss in nuance the shiftier capitalistic and politicking elements of the European Union and the benefits of FOM because in the eyes of the wider conversation you’re either a fact-denying Brexiteer or a whinging Remoaner depending what position you’re taking. 
 

I’m a regionalist amongst other things, so if the context was you either remain in the EU, in its current model that will then reform into a Federation of European States afterwards, or leave, then I’d have voted Leave. If the context was a decentralised EU as a trading bloc with FOM and a lesser political forum, then I’d be a proud Pro-EU Remainer. 

 

[davieG]

22 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

In a nutshell, pretty much. I imagine we continued to be to build at least some goodwill in negotiations. 
 

I personally voted Remain but I’m not Pro-EU, it was more pragmatic that I don’t think we have much to gain and more to lose leaving than any allegiance. There’s far too much overreach in the organisation and in my view it would be better simply as a trading bloc with FOM and some low-level political forum. For all it’s supposed power, it’s silence over the Guardia Civil brutalising Catalonians, Hungary’s move to authoritarianism and failures in assisting Italy proficiently show its a lot more bluster. As davieG’s story show, the more obedient pushovers get punished and the p!sstakers get to keep pushing. Even my friend, who’s a pretty ardent European Federalist, feels the EU shouldn’t have really expanded past West Europe, or did so far too early at the least. 
 

This is all pretty derailed from the initial chat, but whilst I feel we would’ve been better leveraging our power in the EU with Italy and other detractor nations, it’s in the past and I hope once we can sort a deal we start focusing on as much local manufacturing/production as we can realistically achieve today, I don’t want all the bluster to be for us to sell ourselves wholesale to stronger powers.

Well it started out as a Trading Bloc when we joined, as for changing from within we tried that on a low level with Cameron but were roundly rejected by the all powerful French (at least in the EU) and Germany.

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

I think it speaks to what the Frankenstein’s Monster the whole Brexit saga became, you were Remain or Leave which makes it incredibly hard to discuss in nuance the shiftier capitalistic and politicking elements of the European Union and the benefits of FOM because in the eyes of the wider conversation you’re either a fact-denying Brexiteer or a whinging Remoaner depending what position you’re taking. 
 

I’m a regionalist amongst other things, so if the context was you either remain in the EU, in its current model that will then reform into a Federation of European States afterwards, or leave, then I’d have voted Leave. If the context was a decentralised EU as a trading bloc with FOM and a lesser political forum, then I’d be a proud Pro-EU Remainer. 

 

I don’t think our views are as far apart as you think.

[leicsmac]

Ummm...I don't want to go massively Godwin here but this is either a really unfortunate coincidence or...

 

 

 

That's not great optics there, tbh.

[Bilo]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

They are struggling yes.  Boris and Cummings have stacked the Cabinet with too many lightweights who toe the line, which would probably have been fine for their original plans, but has left them exposed in this time of crisis.  They should have pulled in some heavyweights early on.  Javid for Coronavirus response minister perhaps.  Frost though is doing a good job of the Brexit negotiations, and they will come good - it is sad that it has taken this long for the EU to admit they wanted an extension and to then concede it isn't happening. Now finally we can get on with it properly.

 

The U turns have been a bit strange - shown a lack of awareness of the public mood, which is unusual.  The decision themselves were right in the end, but how we got their was daft.

I think that's fair.

 

The Conservatives made it pretty much a single issue election as they knew the 45% or so who wanted Brexit done above all else would latch onto it, and it worked very well indeed. Couple this with Labour's being pretty unclear and woolly on the issue, as well as being burdened with a weak leader to boot, and the outcome was fairly obvious. 

 

The problem is that the government is now exposed as one to win an election and get Brexit done with very limited substance beyond it. A single issue campaign is one thing, but a single issue party in power will look poor when out of its comfort zone. 

 

It is, as you say, a very weak Cabinet handpicked for compliance rather than competence. Up against the weak leadership and shadow cabinet of 2019, they could just about get away with it. Putting them up against a far more able LOTO and Shadow Cabinet leaves them looking even more exposed. 

 

I think a massive issue is that they are always too slow off the mark. They appear to be stuck between wanting to govern according to traditional Tory instincts, such as with the NHS surcharge and reluctance to extend food vouchers for FSM children, and having to govern more in line with the promises they made to break down the Red Wall. By the time they implement policies to engage the latter, it has become very clear that it was a forced decision as they would've preferred the former. 

 

On early evidence, it does look as though they're probably going to struggle to hold on to some of the newly won seats like Bolsover and Sedgefield - especially considering that they have a number of MPs who clearly didn't expect to win and appear to be rather unprepared. 

[davieG]

Not sure this is the best place or even it's authenticity but interesting ended up on my Facebook page

 

Alistair Hood

thtecgt1cS3pd Juneot atagslnshorrm 1s3:ed03

I'd heard of this experiment but I'd never seen it.
Stunning. And for it's time....wow

 

 

[David Guiza]

'Presidential' Keir starting to take effect on the YouGov polling. 

 

[CosbehFox]

2 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Hear hear. The government u-turning is somehow seen as a bad thing. Which baffles me more than anything. Either we want a government that listens, or we want a dictatorship... Which ironically people were screaming from minute 1.

Just on this point - loose place to put this but Starmer did mention extending school meals the week before Rashford campaigned the government. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Tbf I think the people getting rowdy over a £900k paint job when the government have just rolled tens of billions of pounds into the economy are probably just barking up a mad tree. Woof woof.

Some similarities in the same tactics used when waffling on about statues rather than the main issue at hand