Coronavirus Thread

[leicsmac]

19 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Have the WHO actually done anything to help or have they just come out with warnings and shit slogans like 'test, test, test'?

Depends on what you define by "help", really.

 

Given advice based on the changing situation and making the best they can of information that is limited and may be bogus depending on the source? Yeah.

Come riding over the horizon at full charge with the vaccine in hand ready to distribute to everyone who needs it on the surface of the Earth? No.

 

As with the scientists, they're in a double bind - do what they're doing and they get pilloried for being indecisive and not doing much, give definitive orders that then turn out to be wrong (which is likely given the limited information) and they get pilloried for being wrong.

 

To say nothing of that fact that if they did try to give more decisive advice the nationalists in the higher echelons of most of the big nations would squawk bloody murder at "international interference" - they're doing a lot of that already.

Edited 18 September 2020 by leicsmac

[Nalis]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Depends on what you define by "help", really.

 

Given advice based on the changing situation and making the best they can of information that is limited and may be bogus depending on the source? Yeah.

Come riding over the horizon at full charge with the vaccine in hand ready to distribute to everyone who needs it on the surface of the Earth? No.

 

As with the scientists, they're in a double bind - do what they're doing and they get pilloried for being indecisive and not doing much, give definitive orders that then turn out to be wrong (which is likely given the limited information) and they get pilloried for being wrong.

 

To say nothing of that fact that if they did try to give more decisive advice the nationalists in the higher echelons of most of the big nations would squawk bloody murder at "international interference" - they're doing a lot of that already.

Well obviously wasnt expecting a vaccine on day 1 but I think you went OTT on that just to back up your first point. How has the quality advice been though? They were slow on picking things up in China for a start.

 

Warning of of the potential dangers of an increase in something most of us on this forum could do by looking at a trend, and thats all we seem to be getting from them.

 

Its not the science I am doubting, its the governance of the WHO who come out with soundbites when they want to be heard it seems.

 

But yeah, I do agree with your final paragraph to be fair.

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Well obviously wasnt expecting a vaccine on day 1 but I think you went OTT on that just to back up your first point. How has the quality advice been though? They were slow on picking things up in China for a start.

 

Warning of of the potential dangers of an increase in something most of us on this forum could do by looking at a trend, and thats all we seem to be getting from them.

 

Its not the science I am doubting, its the governance of the WHO who come out with soundbites when they want to be heard it seems.

 

But yeah, I do agree with your final paragraph to be fair.

I did use hyperbole to make my point there, it's true.

 

I honestly think that there's not much more the WHO could have done without either being derided as wrong or pilloried by the nationalists in various governments tbh, so while what they're saying seems obvious and therefore spurious I'm not sure what more people might expect of them. Them being slow out of the blocks at the start is a fair criticism, though.

 

It highlights, yet again, how an international organisation that ostensibly has everyone's best interest at heart can be hamstrung.

[Col city fan]

9 hours ago, Col city fan said:

It’s already started

Headmasters shitting themselves and kids being sent home with the snuffles

Parents then having to socially isolate and completely overwhelming the test availability

It’s gonna be a long winter this one...

https://apple.news/ADyq3rosURyyfxpQNn5VwsQ
 

‘a state of absolute pandemonium’...

Edited 18 September 2020 by Col city fan

[Guest Fktf]

6 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

That's a strange assumption.  Why would you assume that?  If I knew the answer I would certainly tell you.

 

No, I haven't done the research and I don't know the answer.  That is why I ask the question.  But yes, I am assuming that of the 40-odd thousand people who have died with coronavirus after having a recent positive test, that some of them had underlying conditions and would have died anyway, and that some of them had nothing wrong and could have carried on living for many many years.  I don't know what the split is.  With flu and pneumonia, about 20% of the recorded deaths are generally analysed as being caused by flu and pneumonia, not by other causes.  Is coronavirus the same?  I suspect it might be - but I want to know. 

Sorry mate, but the three paragraphs or so you wrote seemed very authoritative, heavily skewed towards the idea covid19 was only killing those about to go anyway. I just wanted to know where that sense of certainty was coming from.

[joachim1965]

6 hours ago, Nod.E said:

Let's see. The total lack of entire neighborhoods dropping dead, despite the most invisible and infectious disease in recent times inevitably having spread, and continuing to spread. That enough?

 

The people panicking about cases increasing contradict themselves in their panic.

 

If you accept it's spreading like wild fire (It is, it's basically inevitable at this point, and you do accept this if you're panicked), you are also accepting that we're in a bad place case wise. If you accept this and realise how quickly it has come after schools went back, you must also accept the inevitability of it all. What's your solution? Stop everything for 2 or 3 years until there's a vaccine or it just all blows over? While we're at it let's make it illegal to leave the house without sun cream in summer due to the cancer this causes.

 

Either it's spreading like wildfire and we're not dying from it at a rate that should raise any more concern than the next cause of death, so it's not a concern.

 

OR

 

It isn't spreading that much because of the measures we have in place. So it isn't as much of a concern as it might be.

 

Clearly the second option isn't right as here we are in the midst of the inevitable panic off the back of schools returning. So clearly these half measures don't work.

 

Choose one. Either restrictions work or they don't. The only possible argument you have at this point is that we should batten down the hatches to save any unnecessary loss of human life, which, frankly, is not only ridiculous, but counterproductive due to the side effects of such an approach leading to, you guessed it, long term loss of human life.

 

Lockdown should be regarded an absolute last resort. Only when hospitals are at tipping point should it be considered an option. The damage caused from lockdown psychologically and economically are far too great to treat it as an 'ah well best to be on the safe side, eh' option.

 

It's the equivalent of breaking your left leg to stop the pain in your right. 

 

60 million people die every year for fvck sake. Covid has 'only' killed 1 million and that's a rate that will slow down as medicine is already catching up. And that's also with some very questionable attribution with Covid seemingly cropping up on death certificates and taking all the plaudits. Polio used to kill 500k every year before a vaccine! 

 

Sick to fvcking death of idealistic, head in the clouds thinking.

 

It really is as simple as people needing to chill the fvck out about this. Sorry if my perspective offends you, and apologies that I'm not sh*tting the bed over this. I'm aware that's the popular response.

amen 🙏 to that.

[Guest Fktf]

6 hours ago, Nod.E said:

Let's see. The total lack of entire neighborhoods dropping dead, despite the most invisible and infectious disease in recent times inevitably having spread, and continuing to spread. That enough?

 

The people panicking about cases increasing contradict themselves in their panic.

 

If you accept it's spreading like wild fire (It is, it's basically inevitable at this point, and you do accept this if you're panicked), you are also accepting that we're in a bad place case wise. If you accept this and realise how quickly it has come after schools went back, you must also accept the inevitability of it all. What's your solution? Stop everything for 2 or 3 years until there's a vaccine or it just all blows over? While we're at it let's make it illegal to leave the house without sun cream in summer due to the cancer this causes.

 

Either it's spreading like wildfire and we're not dying from it at a rate that should raise any more concern than the next cause of death, so it's not a concern.

 

OR

 

It isn't spreading that much because of the measures we have in place. So it isn't as much of a concern as it might be.

 

Clearly the second option isn't right as here we are in the midst of the inevitable panic off the back of schools returning. So clearly these half measures don't work.

 

Choose one. Either restrictions work or they don't. The only possible argument you have at this point is that we should batten down the hatches to save any unnecessary loss of human life, which, frankly, is not only ridiculous, but counterproductive due to the side effects of such an approach leading to, you guessed it, long term loss of human life.

 

Lockdown should be regarded an absolute last resort. Only when hospitals are at tipping point should it be considered an option. The damage caused from lockdown psychologically and economically are far too great to treat it as an 'ah well best to be on the safe side, eh' option.

 

It's the equivalent of breaking your left leg to stop the pain in your right. 

 

60 million people die every year for fvck sake. Covid has 'only' killed 1 million and that's a rate that will slow down as medicine is already catching up. And that's also with some very questionable attribution with Covid seemingly cropping up on death certificates and taking all the plaudits. Polio used to kill 500k every year before a vaccine! 

 

Sick to fvcking death of idealistic, head in the clouds thinking.

 

It really is as simple as people needing to chill the fvck out about this. Sorry if my perspective offends you, and apologies that I'm not sh*tting the bed over this. I'm aware that's the popular response.

I see you're still in the game of trying to extend people's logic of dealing with covid19 to every other cause of death. We don't have to have one rule to apply to everything.

 

Your perspective doesn't offend me. The way you put it across might offend some, but I find it quite enjoyable. 

 

FWIW, I do agree that restrictions have been working to keep things under control. But I think they'll only work in the summer, and as the weather changes we'll be in trouble again - we're just starting to see the beginning of that. For instance, pubs are fine when people can sit outside, but once it gets cold and everyone goes in doors, they'll be huge transmission venues.

Edited 18 September 2020 by Fktf

[Jon the Hat]

My kids have been back at school for a week and both are off sick with colds.  Snot everywhere!  Presumably if we were all about to get Covid they would have that instead.

This level of panic is nuts it really is.  We will look back on this ****wittery with a wince at the vast economic cost, long term death rates from untreated illness including cancer, and loss of liberty.  Meanwhile Sweden is out the other side and motoring.

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

9 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

The underlying health conditions were not necessarily going to cause any of those people to die at the time they did had they not contracted covid though. Millions of people live with underlying health conditions, you can live a perfectly normal life, and have a pretty good life expectancy, with many underlying health conditions. It's not these conditions that killed these people at the time they died.

Yes I agree but also as I have put on here a number of times 10000 people die each week in England and Wales, people die of various illnesses and underlying health conditions could mean anything including terminal cancer, yes they may of lived a little longer but really to say they’ve been taken by covid is stretching the truth a little too far.

People die, and the annual death numbers when released at the end of the year will indicate how many excess deaths there has been due to COVID this year.

 

[FoxesDeb]

4 minutes ago, Mark 'expert' Lawrenson said:

Yes I agree but also as I have put on here a number of times 10000 people die each week in England and Wales, people die of various illnesses and underlying health conditions could mean anything including terminal cancer, yes they may of lived a little longer but really to say they’ve been taken by covid is stretching the truth a little too far.

People die, and the annual death numbers when released at the end of the year will indicate how many excess deaths there has been due to COVID this year.

 

The underlying health conditions have included obesity, normally managed moderate asthma, diabetes and pregnancy.  People who would not normally have died of these conditions alone, and would certainly have been expected to live more than 'a little longer'.

 

I don't disagree with your point regarding the excess deaths though.

[Col city fan]

51 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

My kids have been back at school for a week and both are off sick with colds.  Snot everywhere!  Presumably if we were all about to get Covid they would have that instead.

This level of panic is nuts it really is.  We will look back on this ****wittery with a wince at the vast economic cost, long term death rates from untreated illness including cancer, and loss of liberty.  Meanwhile Sweden is out the other side and motoring.

I predict this will only get much worse.

When colds die off and seasonal flu kicks in our ‘state of pandemonium’ will be off the scale imo

 

Edited 18 September 2020 by Col city fan

[dsr-burnley]

2 hours ago, Fktf said:

Sorry mate, but the three paragraphs or so you wrote seemed very authoritative, heavily skewed towards the idea covid19 was only killing those about to go anyway. I just wanted to know where that sense of certainty was coming from.

Take out the word "only" and you'd be right.  My post quite definitely says that covid19 is killing those who were about to go anyway, AND that it's killing people who were in more or less good health.  What they don't tell us is how many of each.

 

But by putting in the word "only" - which you have done yourself, I didn't so it - you've changed the slant entirely.  Covid, like flu, kills the healthy and the dying.  In what proportion?

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

5 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

The underlying health conditions have included obesity, normally managed moderate asthma, diabetes and pregnancy.  People who would not normally have died of these conditions alone, and would certainly have been expected to live more than 'a little longer'.

 

I don't disagree with your point regarding the excess deaths though.

I really don’t know the statistics, does anyone? My “little longer” quote was directed at the people with terminal cancer who sadly died.
How many pregnant women have died? About as many that have been ran over by a bus which is commonly used to support the other side of the argument.

 

10000 people die every week of various diseases, accidents, old age etc etc etc just maybe, quite possibly a few of these may also have covid, on top of what was going to kill them anyway.

[Guest Fktf]

5 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Take out the word "only" and you'd be right.  My post quite definitely says that covid19 is killing those who were about to go anyway, AND that it's killing people who were in more or less good health.  What they don't tell us is how many of each.

 

But by putting in the word "only" - which you have done yourself, I didn't so it - you've changed the slant entirely.  Covid, like flu, kills the healthy and the dying.  In what proportion?

Fair play - seems I've read something in your post that you didn't mean.

[Guest Fktf]

1 minute ago, Mark 'expert' Lawrenson said:

I really don’t know the statistics, does anyone? My “little longer” quote was directed at the people with terminal cancer who sadly died.
How many pregnant women have died? About as many that have been ran over by a bus which is commonly used to support the other side of the argument.

 

10000 people die every week of various diseases, accidents, old age etc etc etc just maybe, quite possibly a few of these may also have covid, on top of what was going to kill them anyway.

Deaths isn't the only metric. Covid passes on in the womb - we won't know the complications of infection for the baby for years.

[Jon the Hat]

20 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

The underlying health conditions have included obesity, normally managed moderate asthma, diabetes and pregnancy.  People who would not normally have died of these conditions alone, and would certainly have been expected to live more than 'a little longer'.

 

I don't disagree with your point regarding the excess deaths though.

The days when people can allow their health to go to shit with obesity, type 2 diabetes and heart disease from poor lifestyle choices and expect the NHS to keep them going for decades might be over.  Could be a big wake up call for a lot of people

[ealingfox]

4 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

The days when people can allow their health to go to shit with obesity, type 2 diabetes and heart disease from poor lifestyle choices and expect the NHS to keep them going for decades might be over.  Could be a big wake up call for a lot of people

 

You'd hope so, smokers too. Can't see it though.

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

I think just reading the posts on here gives an idea of the ever increasing divide in people’s opinions on the covid crisis.

I enjoy reading all the differing opinions and it’s good to debate.

On a larger scale it may not be so good, the country will become divided, extremists views will get louder and whatever restrictions put in place by the government will be met with hostility by many.

This crisis will rumble on throughout the winter and I do wonder what things will be like when we get to springtime 

 

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

13 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

The days when people can allow their health to go to shit with obesity, type 2 diabetes and heart disease from poor lifestyle choices and expect the NHS to keep them going for decades might be over.  Could be a big wake up call for a lot of people

Haha did you see the hoards of people lining up at McDonald’s when it reopened? 

[Costock_Fox]

For those with taste issues, would you say it’s literally a complete loss of taste?

 

Basically I feel like I’ve got a very mild cold but my taste and smell is a bit off. It’s not gone completely, I’ve tasted vinegar but it smells a bit strange.

 

No tests available which is ideal.

[simFox]

9 minutes ago, Mark 'expert' Lawrenson said:

I think just reading the posts on here gives an idea of the ever increasing divide in people’s opinions on the covid crisis.

I enjoy reading all the differing opinions and it’s good to debate.

On a larger scale it may not be so good, the country will become divided, extremists views will get louder and whatever restrictions put in place by the government will be met with hostility by many.

This crisis will rumble on throughout the winter and I do wonder what things will be like when we get to springtime 

 

We'll be covid free but queuing at food banks.

[simFox]

Just now, Costock_Fox said:

For those with taste issues, would you say it’s literally a complete loss of taste?

 

Basically I feel like I’ve got a very mild cold but my taste and smell is a bit off. It’s not gone completely, I’ve tasted vinegar but it smells a bit strange.

 

No tests available which is ideal.

Go eat a maccys. If it tastes nice, you have covid.

[simFox]

Even the tide on here is turning. I can only resort to one liner quips now as everything I want to say is already being said.

[fuchsntf]

13 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

The days when people can allow their health to go to shit with obesity, type 2 diabetes and heart disease from poor lifestyle choices and expect the NHS to keep them going for decades might be over.  Could be a big wake up call for a lot of people

Shows you dont seem to know or Care what situation can arise in peoples lives...

I am 6.2..66 Yes old..ex-high performance athlete,until injuries in foot & legs Made their Impact for amy decent Level of Sport..

So I decided from 22-24, to be adventurous ,and to travel,trek,and work,around the World's far corners....After 28yrs , (50yrs old)I After so much Wear & tear found myself slowly becoming a Walking catastrophy..; Disabled...then I discovered I had diabetes,then  I got cancer,then Wheel..chair....

Many normal fit people,hit that wall....

Ist Not all about weakness or unwilling to Keep active...some People just cant..!!!

[yorkie1999]

27 minutes ago, Costock_Fox said:

For those with taste issues, would you say it’s literally a complete loss of taste?

 

Basically I feel like I’ve got a very mild cold but my taste and smell is a bit off. It’s not gone completely, I’ve tasted vinegar but it smells a bit strange.

 

No tests available which is ideal.

Drink a glass of freshly squeezed lemon juice, if you can't taste it, then worry.