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filbertway

Coronavirus Thread

By filbertway, in General Chat

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Beechey

Beechey

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Actually it's any emotional expression of patriotism - particularly in respect of a warlike foreign policy. And since we are reminded by such rhetoric that the virus originated overseas and we are "waging a war against it" - I think my description of Boris's contrived appeals to nationalistic fervour is quite apt. 

I disagree. You're conflating foreign policy and health policy. I think you're really reaching with your overseas remark. It's simply not foreign policy.

Extreme (ish...) patriotism, maybe, but not jingoism. Waging a war I think is more of an apt description of this situation than describing Boris as jingoistic. The state (in fact, nearly every state on Earth) has mobilised itself against this virus.

 

We're not invading China because of this virus.

Edited by Beechey
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Strokes

Strokes

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Beechey said:

I disagree. You're conflating foreign policy and health policy. I think you're really reaching with your overseas remark. It's simply not foreign policy.

Extreme (ish...) patriotism, maybe, but not jingoism.

 

We're not invading China because of this virus.

Yet :ph34r:

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Dunge

Dunge

Posted
Posted

Regardless of the word used to define it, I don’t mind Boris playing the Patriojingoism card with the virus response.

It would be ideal for people to get behind the science, but not everyone will. So if by going “tally-ho everyone, let’s all band together and give this enemy virus a jolly good English thrashing” he gets more people on board with the messages than he otherwise would then I’m fine with that. It may be annoying to some people, but I think they’d generally be already on board with the message through the science and won’t change their minds on it just because they find Boris annoying. It’s about preaching to the unconverted, and I hear it’s an approach that does work in this instance.

 

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SpacedX

SpacedX

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, Beechey said:

I disagree. You're conflating foreign policy and health policy. I think you're really reaching with your overseas remark. It's simply not foreign policy.

Extreme (ish...) patriotism, maybe, but not jingoism. Waging a war I think is more of an apt description of this situation than describing Boris as jingoistic. The state (in fact, nearly every state on Earth) has mobilised itself against this virus.

 

We're not invading China because of this virus.

I disagree. It's not me that's "really reaching", that's precisely the rhetoric that the right employs and has done throughout the past year from Brexit to Coronavirus.

 

Although opinion pieces, the following sum up my choice of the term:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/02/the-british-charlatan-style-has-been-sent-packing-by-too-much-reality

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/09/why-boris-johnson-s-former-supporters-have-no-right-complain-over-his-failures

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Beechey

Beechey

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Line-X said:

I disagree. It's not me that's "really reaching", that's precisely the rhetoric that the right employs and has done throughout the past year from Brexit to Coronavirus.

 

Although opinion pieces, the following sum up my choice of the term:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/02/the-british-charlatan-style-has-been-sent-packing-by-too-much-reality

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/09/why-boris-johnson-s-former-supporters-have-no-right-complain-over-his-failures

I feel I've derailed us enough for one day, so I won't continue this after my post here. I'll just explain my rationale.

 

They might well be saying that, indeed, I agree with you, they have been. However, it's simply not jingoistic. Nationalistic in a general sense, or appealing to patriotism, yes. I'm being pedantic, but it happens a lot, people just apply words they like to unrelated situations, and it dilutes the actual meaning.

I can only access the first article, but if you've based your wording from this then fair enough, but their choice of wording is wrong.

They mention jingoism once, not even in the article text, and seemingly try to explain that by talking about "British pluck", or some form of exceptionalism. That's even further away from the definition of jingoism. They instead switch to talking about nationalism. They're not exactly the same thing.

 

Jingoism is a very specific form of nationalism with regards to foreign policy only. It originates from the Russian-Turkish War in 1877. The UK threatened to send a squadron of ships to block the Russians from taking Constantinople (modern Istanbul), during a period known as The Great Game between the British and Russian Empires. It was a threat of war to achieve their diplomatic goals. Throughout history it was entirely constrained to foreign policy action, for example, the US turning to military internationalism from their period of isolation, or Roosevelt (below) being called jingoistic for interfering militarily in Colombia after they refused to sign the Hay–Herrán Treaty during the early 20th century.

 

I refuse to accept it's simply a synonym for the wide tent of nationalism, it plainly isn't. There's an argument to be made that during the Brexit period there have been jingoistic comments, but to claim that rhetoric in combatting a virus is jingoistic is linguistically flimsy.

 

image.png.1af2b9ed55927c134433c9eee9281aae.png

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SpacedX

SpacedX

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Beechey said:

I feel I've derailed us enough for one day, so I won't continue this after my post here. I'll just explain my rationale.

 

They might well be saying that, indeed, I agree with you, they have been.

 

That was solely my point.

 

6 minutes ago, Beechey said:

However, it's simply not jingoistic. Nationalistic in a general sense, or appealing to patriotism, yes. I'm being pedantic, 

 

Yes I think you are. 

9 minutes ago, Beechey said:

but it happens a lot, people just apply words they like to unrelated situations, and it dilutes the actual meaning.

 

It does and the meaning has indeed been "diluted" over the years. I am agreeing with you, but a cursory examinatio of contemporary definitions will confirm that its meaning has grown to encompass staunch nationalism, or a blind adherence to the rightness or virtue of one's own nation. Strictly speaking though, you are absolutely right that the term is derived from a political perspective that advocates the use of threats or military force in foreign relations.

 

15 minutes ago, Beechey said:

but if you've based your wording from this then fair enough, but their choice of wording is wrong.

 

No, to reiterate, I based it upon the same (siege) mentality - implicit metaphor if you like - surrounding Boris's cause célèbre over Brexit. In this case, declaring war upon and defending our realm against an overseas 'enemy' and invader of foreign origin as Boris's invocation of a wartime spirit/footing has been testament to. We stood alone in 1940. We stood up for ourselves in the Brexit referendum...."We must act like any wartime government and do whatever it takes to support our economy". "We have never in peacetime faced a fight against an invader like this one" "This incoming enemy can be deadly". "Sending “coronavirus packing within 12 weeks”. "A world beating track and trace system"; Irrespective of the origin of the term, can all be referred to as jingosim (in the modern sense of the word). Again, I concede you are correct, the true meaning of the word relates to foreign policy only.

 

Thank you for taking the time to put together such a well informed and interesting response - an education, since I had mistakenly attributed it to nationalist calls for intervention in the Franco-Prussian War. 

 

 

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String fellow

String fellow

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Beechey said:

I don't think I'd say it's jingoistic. Appealing to patriotism, definitely, but not jingoistic at all.

Jingoism is an expression of nationalism in the realm of foreign policy, not in domestic health policy.

 

We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do,

We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too,

We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true,

The Russians shall not have Constantinople!

 

Regardless of my pedantic point, I agree with the sentiment. Who'd have thought minimising social contact reduces the spread of a virus? The revelation shocked me! lol

That verse is okay until the last line, where the rhyming is a load of Istan-bull.

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Sampson

Sampson

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, String fellow said:

That verse is okay until the last line, where the rhyming is a load of Istan-bull.

I think they should have at least written it By-zan-tium of a rhyming dictionary.

Sorry, I thought about that for about 10 minutes and that was the best I could come up with.

Edited by Sampson
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ealingfox

ealingfox

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

 

Spineless. They sit on the fence and if it goes wrong they'll just blame the Tories rather than actually opposing it and helping to come up with a better solution.

 

You know that isn't what would happen if they opposed it.

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Sampson

Sampson

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Otis said:

Anyone would think they didn't want to get into power.

Next election is still 4 years away tbf. Nothing this far in advance of an election decides it. You're in no danger in your party decision making at this stage really.

It will likely be whether our economy bounces back or really struggles on the back of Brexit and Covid which will decide who wins the next election.

Edited by Sampson
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