Coronavirus Thread

[Guest Harrydc]

2 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

I suspect it's because flu is less dangerous than coronavirus.  Like I said, I don't know if this action in practice would be the correct or proportionate thing to do.  But there is nothing wrong with it in principle, any more than there is anything wrong with insisting that certain nurses must have a hepatitis B jab.

Yes. But the Phizer vaccine is supposed to be 96% effective against this so called 'delta' varient. So the elderly who are in a care home should be protected against it. 

 

Unless they're anti vaxxers and don't trust it? 

[Babylon]

18 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

Yes. But the Phizer vaccine is supposed to be 96% effective against this so called 'delta' varient. So the elderly who are in a care home should be protected against it. 

 

Unless they're anti vaxxers and don't trust it? 

Even if all of them took it, 96% means potentially for 4% it doesn’t work. 
 

Which means 4/100 possibly dying seeing as they are some of the most vulnerable, or potentially 28,000 of the 700,000 in care homes. 
 

Now of course the it’s highly unlikely they all get it and that they all die from it. But I’m just trying to highlight that 96% sounds a lot, until you start dealing in huge numbers and realise 4% of hundreds of hundreds of thousands and millions is a lot of people still.

[dsr-burnley]

22 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

Yes. But the Phizer vaccine is supposed to be 96% effective against this so called 'delta' varient. So the elderly who are in a care home should be protected against it. 

 

Unless they're anti vaxxers and don't trust it? 

I don't know enough about it to say whether it is justified in this case.  All I have said is that in principle there is, to me, no objection.  Just like, in principle, I have no objection to the government rolling out this vaccine that killed Charlotte's husband - the government cannot refrain from making a decision just because someone might die.  If the government had decided not to vaccinate anyone, Charlotte's husband might still be alive, but that doesn't de facto mean they were wrong.

 

Very old and infirm people have lower resistance and less effective immune systems than the younger and healthier.  The chances are this 96% protection from the vaccine is more like 99% for a young and healthy individual and well below 96% for an old and infirm individual.  The data should be - though whether it will be is doubtful - studied in detail and analysed to judge whether, in practice, vaccination should be required of staff in care homes.

[fox_favourite]

The last 3 days cases levels have to be of concern.  Tuesday over 7k, Wednesday 9k, Thursday 11k cases. I know people say “it’s not about cases” but the more cases, the more chance of people entering hospitals and more chance of deaths. 
 

just as it looked like it was under control, this is an alarming increase, surely. 

[st albans fox]

3 hours ago, fox_favourite said:

The last 3 days cases levels have to be of concern.  Tuesday over 7k, Wednesday 9k, Thursday 11k cases. I know people say “it’s not about cases” but the more cases, the more chance of people entering hospitals and more chance of deaths. 
 

just as it looked like it was under control, this is an alarming increase, surely. 

Some of us were musing that there seemed to be a plateau around 7500.  sadly the much touted rise has begun. Let’s hope it soon begins to round off.  Recent studies show that amongst younger age groups (unvaccinated) it is very much rising. Of course these groups are more likely to be asymptomatic or suffering very mild symptoms so not getting tested and not showing in the numbers we get each day.

 

govt have way more data than us and make their decisions based on that (unless it’s a political call ref India on the red list). A report yesterday mentioned protection in the elderly is tapering off after 6 months or so.  That must mean the most vulnerable in society based on age will need a booster jab by the end of the summer.  So avoiding the delta variant becoming massively widespread is a cautious approach but still understandable. 

[CosbehFox]

12 hours ago, Col city fan said:

Of course you can’t physically force anyone to have a vaccine. It’ll be the implications of not having it eg. Staff being sacked from nursing homes, res homes etc if they continue to decline it

It’s hugely big brother ish... and I don’t think it’ll be enforceable legally 

 

Is it a lot different than say numerous people in travel industry who have to take vaccinations to protect themselves for the likes of Hepatitis? 
 

I wouldn’t say so 

[Guest Harrydc]

37 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Is it a lot different than say numerous people in travel industry who have to take vaccinations to protect themselves for the likes of Hepatitis? 
 

I wouldn’t say so 

To protect themselves? 

 

That's the old definition of vaccines.

[Robo61]

9 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

To protect themselves? 

 

That's the old definition of vaccines.

 

You've lost me,  are you suggesting the travel industry mandating vaccines to only protect the employee,  that makes no sense.  

Mass vaccination of populations had aleays been for public health and not purely the protection of the individual.  Most of us wish to protect wider society.

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Is it a lot different than say numerous people in travel industry who have to take vaccinations to protect themselves for the likes of Hepatitis? 
 

I wouldn’t say so 

 

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the policy, this will lead to mass resignations (several at Mrs B's care home have already indicated their intention to leave if it's enforced) and recruitment problems  in an industry already chronically understaffed.

 

Furthermore, it's unworkable as it stands; have you any idea how many outside agencies visit a care home in the course of a week? Tradesmen of all kinds; GPs; District nurses; ambulance crews; relatives; deliver drivers; pharmacists - the list goes on.

[Robo61]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the policy, this will lead to mass resignations (several at Mrs B's care home have already indicated their intention to leave if it's enforced) and recruitment problems  in an industry already chronically understaffed.

 

Furthermore, it's unworkable as it stands; have you any idea how many outside agencies visit a care home in the course of a week? Tradesmen of all kinds; GPs; District nurses; ambulance crews; relatives; deliver drivers; pharmacists - the list goes on.

Completly agree with the first paragraph and this risk certainly needs to be factored in to any government consideration on the matter.

 

Not sure though thst the proposal involves non clinical visitors to care homes and dont at all see why it would.

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, Robo61 said:

Completly agree with the first paragraph and this risk certainly needs to be factored in to any government consideration on the matter.

 

Not sure though thst the proposal involves non clinical visitors to care homes and dont at all see why it would.

 

It's the only way to ensure Covid biosecurity; if they are to be exempt it makes a mockery of the proposal.

Edited 18 June 2021 by Buce

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-57492961

 

Informative look at what's going on in the other side of the world.

 

I will say however that Korea are finally getting their act together as far as vaccines go, somewhere between 500-700k daily rate consistently now, so they shouldn't take too long to catch up from here.

[Robo61]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

It's the only way to ensure Covid biosecurity; if they are to be exempt it makes a mockery of the proposal.

No it does not,  its about reducing risk to what is reasonable not ridding care homes or anywhere else of all risk.

 

 

[CosbehFox]

2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the policy, this will lead to mass resignations (several at Mrs B's care home have already indicated their intention to leave if it's enforced) and recruitment problems  in an industry already chronically understaffed.

 

Furthermore, it's unworkable as it stands; have you any idea how many outside agencies visit a care home in the course of a week? Tradesmen of all kinds; GPs; District nurses; ambulance crews; relatives; deliver drivers; pharmacists - the list goes on.

Don’t disagree with that at all. Personal preference is the king but claiming this is going to challenging in court is some stretch as vaccinations to travel/work for mandatory reasons already occur.

 

Really don’t disagree on the final paragraph as well - in early January I had to inspect a care home and was surprised by how relaxed the whole process was. Compared to being tested when visiting large warehouses before entering 

[Col city fan]

17 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

It's no badge of honour obviously but Italy and Russia likely to overtake us within a week or two. Not sure what their restrictions have been like.

We're about 13th in Europe for deaths per million.

(Goes without saying all the deaths are awful, it's not a competition etc)

It’s absolutely no badge of honour whatsoever and I think it’s been caused by many factors:

1. Geographically we are very small and we have very dense populations of people in all of the major cities. Compare this to say, Germany or France both of which have huge swathes of countryside with small populations therein

2, Governmental issues. There are many....

Lax restrictions on border controls

No testing for months at airports, ports etc

Confusing messages being given out in terms of ‘rules and regs’

Being unable to adequately police said ‘rules and regs’

Being very slow to appreciate and to act on the impact Covid would have on Nursing and Residential homes

3. Differential uptakes of the vaccine amongst different communities

4. The breaching of the rules and regs by people who frankly have ignored them

 

This isn’t an exhaustive list whatsoever but I think these have been the main causes.

 

 

[Dr The Singh]

1 hour ago, Col city fan said:

It’s absolutely no badge of honour whatsoever and I think it’s been caused by many factors:

1. Geographically we are very small and we have very dense populations of people in all of the major cities. Compare this to say, Germany or France both of which have huge swathes of countryside with small populations therein

2, Governmental issues. There are many....

Lax restrictions on border controls

No testing for months at airports, ports etc

Confusing messages being given out in terms of ‘rules and regs’

Being unable to adequately police said ‘rules and regs’

Being very slow to appreciate and to act on the impact Covid would have on Nursing and Residential homes

3. Differential uptakes of the vaccine amongst different communities

4. The breaching of the rules and regs by people who frankly have ignored them

 

This isn’t an exhaustive list whatsoever but I think these have been the main causes.

 

 

You forgot the main one:

 

Human beings are vile coonts

[Sol thewall Bamba]

Drop in cases from yesterday.

[Soup]

Spain to lift the outdoor mask rule from the 26th of this month. Stupid rule in the first place

[Innovindil]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57481895

 

Publisher Bloomsbury says vaccines will be compulsory for UK staff returning to its offices when they reopen.

 

 

In March, a poll of 2,000 workers, conducted by employee review website Glassdoor, found more than half thought there should be a requirement for staff to have had a Covid vaccination before they go back to the office.

Of the workers polled, one in seven said they would hand in their notice if they were required to return before all employees had been vaccinated.

 

The first of what is suspected to be many companies declaring compulsory vaccinations for returning workers. Interesting to see what comes of this legally, surely can't be firing people who refuse to take it, or can't take it. Plenty more firms declaring no more new non-vaccinated hirings. A complete shitstorm and one the government seems keen to ignite, I dislike anti-vaxers as much as the next guy, but this is completely uneccessary and potentially a little self-destructive.

[Dunge]

22 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57481895

 

Publisher Bloomsbury says vaccines will be compulsory for UK staff returning to its offices when they reopen.

 

 

In March, a poll of 2,000 workers, conducted by employee review website Glassdoor, found more than half thought there should be a requirement for staff to have had a Covid vaccination before they go back to the office.

Of the workers polled, one in seven said they would hand in their notice if they were required to return before all employees had been vaccinated.

 

The first of what is suspected to be many companies declaring compulsory vaccinations for returning workers. Interesting to see what comes of this legally, surely can't be firing people who refuse to take it, or can't take it. Plenty more firms declaring no more new non-vaccinated hirings. A complete shitstorm and one the government seems keen to ignite, I dislike anti-vaxers as much as the next guy, but this is completely uneccessary and potentially a little self-destructive.

I’m pro-vaccine but this isn’t right.

[Guest Harrydc]

A lot of people may think I'm 'selfish' or 'stupid' for not taking the vaccine. But absolutely nothing will ever make me take it. No one can ever convince me otherwise. I'm not doing it to purposley  harm anyone, I'm just that skeptical. 

 

So imagine for someone like me being told your freedoms may be permanently taken away if you do not put something inside your body that you do not trust. 

 

I'm so frustrated right now with the world. 

[Dunge]

10 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

A lot of people may think I'm 'selfish' or 'stupid' for not taking the vaccine. But absolutely nothing will ever make me take it. No one can ever convince me otherwise. I'm not doing it to purposley  harm anyone, I'm just that skeptical. 

 

So imagine for someone like me being told your freedoms may be permanently taken away if you do not put something inside your body that you do not trust. 

 

I'm so frustrated right now with the world. 

Regardless of the above news, why won’t you have a vaccine?

 

Plenty of people in this thread don’t like it or lockdown but have had one.

[Paninistickers]

3 hours ago, Innovindil said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57481895

 

Publisher Bloomsbury says vaccines will be compulsory for UK staff returning to its offices when they reopen.

 

 

In March, a poll of 2,000 workers, conducted by employee review website Glassdoor, found more than half thought there should be a requirement for staff to have had a Covid vaccination before they go back to the office.

Of the workers polled, one in seven said they would hand in their notice if they were required to return before all employees had been vaccinated.

 

The first of what is suspected to be many companies declaring compulsory vaccinations for returning workers. Interesting to see what comes of this legally, surely can't be firing people who refuse to take it, or can't take it. Plenty more firms declaring no more new non-vaccinated hirings. A complete shitstorm and one the government seems keen to ignite, I dislike anti-vaxers as much as the next guy, but this is completely uneccessary and potentially a little self-destructive.

Yup. Good luck in the employment tribunal with that. 

 

No different to an employer insisting you drink alcohol or wear short skirts

[StanSP]

15 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

A lot of people may think I'm 'selfish' or 'stupid' for not taking the vaccine. But absolutely nothing will ever make me take it. No one can ever convince me otherwise. I'm not doing it to purposley  harm anyone, I'm just that skeptical. 

 

So imagine for someone like me being told your freedoms may be permanently taken away if you do not put something inside your body that you do not trust. 

 

I'm so frustrated right now with the world. 

Why don't you trust it? 

[DennisNedry]

7 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

A lot of people may think I'm 'selfish' or 'stupid' for not taking the vaccine. But absolutely nothing will ever make me take it. No one can ever convince me otherwise. I'm not doing it to purposley  harm anyone, I'm just that skeptical. 

 

So imagine for someone like me being told your freedoms may be permanently taken away if you do not put something inside your body that you do not trust. 

 

I'm so frustrated right now with the world. 

Well mate, all I can say it's a good job that only a small percentage of the British public feel this way, or we'd never get out of a cycle of lockdowns. You may say that's what we're in already, but without vaccinations we're talking decades, not a couple of years.

 

I do not think your attitude can be defined as sceptical. A sceptic does not believe something without good reason, proof or evidence. A sceptic does not deny things that have overwhelming evidence backing them, such as the effectiveness in the vaccinations at preventing serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths from the virus. I'd say you were more a cynic than a sceptic.