Congerton

[Dan LCFC]

Only signing I definitively put on him is Castagne, who so far, has looked very good and probably our best player so far, which is a good one, but it'll take more than that to convince me, the Celtic comments didn't come from nothing and Fofana was our scouts rather than Congerton.

[Guest SO1]

3 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

Only signing I definitively put on him is Castagne, who so far, has looked very good and probably our best player so far, which is a good one, but it'll take more than that to convince me, the Celtic comments didn't come from nothing and Fofana was our scouts rather than Congerton.

Celtic is a totally different context in terms  of quality, availability and money.  nuff said.

Edited 6 October 2020 by SO1

[Beechey]

18 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

Only signing I definitively put on him is Castagne, who so far, has looked very good and probably our best player so far, which is a good one, but it'll take more than that to convince me, the Celtic comments didn't come from nothing and Fofana was our scouts rather than Congerton.

Congerton is the head of the scouting department...

[murphy]

2 hours ago, Babylon said:

Average in terms of performance. 

 

Woeful > Crap > Below Average > Average > Above Average > Very Good > Me

 

 

I wonder how that would look on a graph?     

 

Edited 6 October 2020 by murphy

[Babylon]

2 minutes ago, murphy said:

 

 

I wonder how that would look on a graph?     

 

That's my life in a graph. 

[urban fox]

people banging on about lack of a new striker are living in cloud cuckoo land i am afraid.

1 We generally play with one striker up front and are unlikely to change that system more than for the odd game

2 We already have a back up with Nacho (who can also play as the second front man just behind Vardy if we do play 442

3 Who could we afford that would be of the standard we seem to expect

4 If we had the money who, taking 3 above into consideration, is going to come here knowing full well they will generally spend the next couple of years warming their backsides on the bench.

 

And before people go on about rotation and extra EL games etc, yes this is a factor, but JV is still first choice, will want to play every game possible, points 3 & 4 still apply.

Hi is that robert Lewandowski? Jon Rudkin here.

Hi Jon what do you want?

Well, i was thinking that you might like to come over here to England and play for us

But Jon, what about that Vardy bloke who is a foxes legend and current holder of the Golden Boot?

Ah well, Robert he is getting on a bit, you know, he wont keep going for ever.

err he is only a coupe of years older than me

Well yes but he might get injured and in the meantime we have very comfortable seats in the dugout

**** off Jon

[Richard]

1 hour ago, Dan LCFC said:

Only signing I definitively put on him is Castagne, who so far, has looked very good and probably our best player so far, which is a good one, but it'll take more than that to convince me, the Celtic comments didn't come from nothing and Fofana was our scouts rather than Congerton.

Justin was also on congertons leaked list of Celtic targets before coming here so likely to have heavily influenced that transfer 

[Chrysalis]

4 hours ago, Abrasive fox said:

Disagree on james - think hes shown excellent potential. Also wouldnt class Praet as average, inconsistent yes but on his day as good as any midfielder weve got.

 

Bennett and Perez yes.

Yep, he is performing better than the player who held that position for almost 3 full seasons.  Yet hes barely played half a dozen games there.

 

Praet is more than average as well.

 

Under I would say is too early, and I am usually one to try and predict early, he came in very late in the transfer window (congerton not to blame for negotiations) and was chucked in a game where the team was playing badly.

 

Little Wes, I am not sure I am clapping over us spending so much on a 19 year old, I already think the team is too young, and I feel defenders is not our priority.  But ultimately we wont know on this one until 2-3 years time.

 

Castagne is looking great so far, but had a bad game against west ham like most of the team.

 

We need to get these signings done earlier in the window's.

Edited 6 October 2020 by Chrysalis

[Saxondale]

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

I've had a rant a lot of times recently, in various contexts, about the idea of placing all blame/credit for transfers on solitary individuals as if the whole thing is one bloke playing Football Manager. As an extension of that, it's pretty hard to know how much of our successes and failures in the transfer market to pin on guys like Walsh, Macia, Rudkin, Congerton, Rodgers and every other Foxes talk target. 

 

This. Based on watching several behind-the-scenes football documentaries, it's obvious that transfers are extremely complicated and involve myriad individuals.

 

Nobody on this forum actually knows how Congerton's job description reads.

 

We all love Football Manager, FIFA, etc, but they are to football management what Mario Kart is to motorsport. 

[Ric Flair]

3 hours ago, Babylon said:

I'm merely marking their performances that I've seen so far. Praet can be very good and there is more to come from him, as there is with Justin. But he was up and down last year and only put in two or three great performances, with lots where he didn't pull up any trees. Justin might have excellent potential, and he's shown some nice glimpses. But I've got to counteract that with quite a lot of shit moments also, let's not forget we were gubbins last season for 6 months. Not all his fault, but he played a fair few games and didn't show too much. 

Justin was excellent away at West Ham and home to Villa. Then after the restart he was probably the only bright spot vs Brighton (not saying much), really good at home to Palace and was class away at Arsenal. I cannot remember the Sheffield Utd game but everyone seemed to think his performance as a 3rd centre half vs Man Utd was one of his best as well. 

 

There have been some suspect games from him, especially this season at left back/left wing back but even in those games he's had a hand in goals we've scored too so all in all I think he's doing well for us.

[volpeazzurro]

20 minutes ago, Richard said:

Justin was also on congertons leaked list of Celtic targets before coming here so likely to have heavily influenced that transfer 

I think it's already been on here a long time ago that we'd been looking at Justin for a couple of years at the time of his signing. That doesn't mean Congerton wasn't independently also interested of course. Think we'd also had Praet on our radar as well. 

 

However, we have to be pragmatic and fair about it. I am one of those who for a number of reasons that was highly dubious of Congerton coming but, it would be a wrong attitude, with the benefit of hindsight, to put any bad signings down to him and any good one's down to the rest of the recruitment team! My current reckoning is that Perez was down to Rodgers and Congerton and he to me is a failure, as was Bennett for which they were also culpable.

 

However, the current signings of Castagne, Under and Fofana have got to be down to the recruitment team as a whole and that absolutely includes Congerton as head. On the surface, they all look to have great potential and if they deliver, then Congerton deserves appropriate recognition for their purchase. If they become abject failures then I'd suggest equally, they are not all his fault. I haven't seen many people on here really objecting to any of them and it's always a bit of a gamble for any signing.

Edited 6 October 2020 by volpeazzurro

[norwichfox]

Far too early to say, can only be judged by the income from sales of the players bought in under his "Head of Senior Recruitment" guise, we need funds for a Stadium expansion and the switching of the Family stand. Fairly happy so far with his performance.

[Babylon]

20 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

Yep, he is performing better than the player who held that position for almost 3 full seasons.  Yet hes barely played half a dozen games there.

Just can't agree with that, Chilwell is by far the better player currently IMO. Yes he was utter tripe when we hit the downturn last year. But at times he's been right up there as one of our better players. 

[PaulW]

5 hours ago, Finnegan said:

I've had a rant a lot of times recently, in various contexts, about the idea of placing all blame/credit for transfers on solitary individuals as if the whole thing is one bloke playing Football Manager. As an extension of that, it's pretty hard to know how much of our successes and failures in the transfer market to pin on guys like Walsh, Macia, Rudkin, Congerton, Rodgers and every other Foxes talk target. 

 

This has to cover both positive and negative feeling. So I'd say that's a big caveat to any answer to this question. 

 

That said, Castagne looks like an absolute master stroke of a signing. He's been electric so far, looks ludicrously comfortable on the ball. West Ham game threw up defensive questions about the entire back five and he was found wanting but I'm pretty confident he'll be a solid signing. 

 

On the other side of the coin, spending all summer single mindedly, obsessively targeting a big money move for a 19 year old centre back we've made one of the most expensive signings in our history looks like enormously risky business and I don't quite understand the positivity around that move. For me, we won't fully understand the value of that move until we've seen the kid play a fair few games. It could be genius, it could be criminal. 

 

Under also looks like a potential "Congerton Classic", it's a lot like the signings that got him a bad name at Sunderland - what Rodgers called "broken players", guys that formerly had a big reputation for potential but whose careers had never lived up to hype and for whom a lot of money was paid that would never be recouped. 

 

In Under's case that may be harsh, the Turkish supporters are very keen to point out he just didn't simply fit the system with Roma's current manager. I think there's a lot of truth in that from the outside looking in. Overall I'm more optimistic than not and am looking forward to seeing him get a run in the side. 

 

So I'd say 6/10 maybe for the window currently but that could be a 9/10 or a 4/10 by the end of the year depending on how the risks are rewarded or not. 

You're quite keen on each way bets then!

 

[Muzzy_Larsson]

20 hours ago, SO1 said:

Celtic is a totally different context in terms  of quality, availability and money.  nuff said.

It's all relative though, we've had heads of recruitment do a far better job than him before and after all sticking to the one model so in that sense what your saying makes little sense. If those factors were the be all and end all then everyone we've had in the role would have performed similarly and they've not. We've had some good heads of recruitment, some poor ones and Congerton, he's out on his own in terms of incompetence.

 

The key difference you have missed altogether. That difference being he's merely a stakeholder in an already well oiled recruitment process at Leicester where people better at their job than him will be able to filter out and bat away the risky and ridiculous players he identifies. Sure there'll be the odd decent one along the way like Castagne but no one will convince me Congerton isn't by and large a charlatan and if he had total control at Leicester like he did at Celtic, Sunderland and Hamburg that he wouldn't make an absolute omnishambles of things. Thankfully he doesn't have total control at Leicester and is merely a cog (which can be ignored and mitigated against when required) in the machine.

 

I get the impression he scouts and identifies players at Leicester, feeds them into the existing and successful model and recruitment then flows how it always has done, which is a sensible and risk adverse approach to having someone like Congerton at the club. Give him too much power and/or control and the results are obvious from his shambles of a career at other clubs. The proof will be in the pudding when Rodgers leaves the club, whether it be on good or bad terms I'll bet Congerton is punted out the door immediately after which tells it's own story.

 

In fact I'd argue his job was easier at Celtic as he had a budget 100x times greater than some of the teams in the league and was asked simply to identify players to perform in what was a poor league given millions in relative terms to do it.  Most of the signings he was responsible for weren't even good enough to play for us domestically. I'd fancy myself to make a better job of that which says a lot. I've said it before and will say it again but put Congerton in at Real Madrid, with a blank cheque book and full control and he'd still make an arse of it.

Edited 7 October 2020 by Muzzy_Larsson

[murphy]

On 06/10/2020 at 13:15, AjcW said:

My contribution on this, as it has been in my staunch defence throughout, is that none of us no enough about the actual role to be able to spew some of the crap that Celtic fans and some of our fans were at him. 

 

Another thing as i've said before is that he's spent most of his career having to shop in the Bargain Bin, which is always going to result in a few duffers... he doesn't know so hopefully he's recommending the players he's always wanted to!

 

To bring about more of a real world example, my boss gets to take a lot of the credit/stick for the campaigns I create at work. Similarly congerton is relying on his scouts to recommend the best players, knowing that ultimately he will get praise/stick... not the ones behind the scenes. 

 

It was summed up perfectly early doors really 'it's not one bloke playing football manager' but some of our fans and the Celtic/Sunderland fans are too dense to get their heads around that.

I'm also not really sure where we can start claiming a signing was his recommendation from, I highly doubt Perez was his recommendation and we went and spent £20m on him just like that within a few weeks of Congerton being in the job! I'd imagine that's another we'll have been looking at for some time. I think on paper he was the ideal vardy back up, but we didn't manage to get a winger in/offload Nacho so again he's been shoved onto the wing which he doesn't like. 

We did our best ever business shopping in the bargain bin - Kante. Mahrez, Vardy....

 

Going further back Izzet, Lennon, Elliott etc

 

Your expectations are set by your budget.  You won't expect world class players with a shoestring budget but you can still do well whichever tier of the transfer market you are operating in.

 

However we judge Congerton at Leicester, his career to date has made him a household name among football fans for all the wrong reasons.  How many scouts of other clubs can you think of?  He had his transfer budget pulled at Hamburg, placed on gardening leave at Sunderland and just ask Henrik how well he is regarded at Celtic.  It is a litany of failure.  It has followed him around wherever he has been and it it is no coincidence and it is not good enough to say that he was just a cog in these machines since he oversaw recruitment departments.

 

Perhaps he has learned from his mistakes, perhaps he is given lesser autonomy at Leicester despite his job title.  He is here now and despite his record we have to be open minded and judge him on what he achieves here but let's not rewrite history as some posters are trying to do.

[AjcW]

12 minutes ago, murphy said:

We did our best ever business shopping in the bargain bin - Kante. Mahrez, Vardy....

 

Going further back Izzet, Lennon, Elliott etc

 

Your expectations are set by your budget.  You won't expect world class players with a shoestring budget but you can still do well whichever tier of the transfer market you are operating in.

 

However we judge Congerton at Leicester, his career to date has made him a household name among football fans for all the wrong reasons.  How many scouts of other clubs can you think of?  He had his transfer budget pulled at Hamburg, placed on gardening leave at Sunderland and just ask Henrik how well he is regarded at Celtic.  It is a litany of failure.  It has followed him around wherever he has been and it it is no coincidence and it is not good enough to say that he was just a cog in these machines since he oversaw recruitment departments.

 

Perhaps he has learned from his mistakes, perhaps he is given lesser autonomy at Leicester despite his job title.  He is here now and despite his record we have to be open minded and judge him on what he achieves here but let's not rewrite history as some posters are trying to do.

Whilst I get where you're coming from, i'm not sure your examples work.

 

Kante, Mahrez and Vardy..... We weren't HAVING to shop in the bargain bin, we just unearthed a couple of gems. (chucking a £1m at a non league player was unheard of and still hasn't been repeated) Have you seen anyone replicate this since? No because French clubs became wise to it and charge a fortune now. 

 

Izzet, Lennon, Elliott.... lets be honest that's different times, can't possibly be used in this argument?

 

I'm well aware of the blots on his record, my point is I still don't think that excuses the vile personal attacks laid at his door by Celtic and Sunderland fans, but as two groups of fans I can't say I'm even a tiny bit surprised. In my opinion (no matter how much the Celtic fans will argue against this) the situation at both of those clubs hasn't improved at all since his departure, at Sunderland (as noted in the documentary) it actually got worse and worse to the point where their chairman is on camera jumping from £1m to £5m on deadline day to sign Will ****ing Grigg!! 

 

My defence from the start has been because I'd like to avoid fans on this forum descending to that level, and to that point I referenced our post title winning season transfer window and that really it should be a yard stick for where we really ****ed up, and that any preceding head of recruitments levels should be based off that.

 

You've made a good point re having lesser autonomy here though, we've got a great structure, a CEO every club in the league is envious of, a DOF in Rudkin who gets negotiations right and has even managed to finally shift some deadwood and we've got a manager who likes control over transfers so will be working closely with Congerton (his mate) to ensure we get things right. 

 

 

[CosbehFox]

You have to remember the upper echelons of the club are very insistent that the systems in place are never altered. So the same analysis and scouting systems will be in place (we appear to be at odds in the scouting world by centralising the scouts to us rather than the head scout) 

[Muzzy_Larsson]

3 hours ago, AjcW said:

Whilst I get where you're coming from, i'm not sure your examples work.

 

Kante, Mahrez and Vardy..... We weren't HAVING to shop in the bargain bin, we just unearthed a couple of gems. (chucking a £1m at a non league player was unheard of and still hasn't been repeated) Have you seen anyone replicate this since? No because French clubs became wise to it and charge a fortune now. 

 

Izzet, Lennon, Elliott.... lets be honest that's different times, can't possibly be used in this argument?

 

I'm well aware of the blots on his record, my point is I still don't think that excuses the vile personal attacks laid at his door by Celtic and Sunderland fans, but as two groups of fans I can't say I'm even a tiny bit surprised. In my opinion (no matter how much the Celtic fans will argue against this) the situation at both of those clubs hasn't improved at all since his departure, at Sunderland (as noted in the documentary) it actually got worse and worse to the point where their chairman is on camera jumping from £1m to £5m on deadline day to sign Will ****ing Grigg!! 

 

My defence from the start has been because I'd like to avoid fans on this forum descending to that level, and to that point I referenced our post title winning season transfer window and that really it should be a yard stick for where we really ****ed up, and that any preceding head of recruitments levels should be based off that.

 

You've made a good point re having lesser autonomy here though, we've got a great structure, a CEO every club in the league is envious of, a DOF in Rudkin who gets negotiations right and has even managed to finally shift some deadwood and we've got a manager who likes control over transfers so will be working closely with Congerton (his mate) to ensure we get things right. 

 

 

Well that's utter rubbish! Our record in the transfer market has improved imeasurably since Congerton was here

 

We are signing players that actually play in the side now and don't disappear years later after playing a couple of games!

 

Fwiw I've never made any vile personal attacks towards the guy at all, all criticism has been professional as he's poor at his job and earning a living on Rodgers coat tails.

[Chocolate Teapot]

Also worth pointing out two other players we tried seriously hard to get - Demiral and Trincao, and in the case of Demiral weren't that far off getting him.

[AjcW]

3 hours ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

Well that's utter rubbish! Our record in the transfer market has improved imeasurably since Congerton was here

 

We are signing players that actually play in the side now and don't disappear years later after playing a couple of games!

 

Fwiw I've never made any vile personal attacks towards the guy at all, all criticism has been professional as he's poor at his job and earning a living on Rodgers coat tails.

I’ve had this conversation with you before mate! I know you’ve not said anything bad, and it’s usually measured, I’ve just read a lot from Celtic fans that I don’t feel comfortable with. 
 

Whether or not players are playing games I still don’t think your tactics in the market have changed much. It’s not like you’ve suddenly started discovering gems who you’re going to sell on for millions (like the VVD/Wanyama days). It’s still for the most part meh signings who keep the squad the same (which is really all you need isn’t it, the leagues a piece of piss as long as you get a favourable result in 3 games a season 🤷‍♂️) maybe there in lies the problem, the margins are so tiny that if a player has a couple of bad games for you they’re shipped out because... how can you possibly have bad games in a Celtic shirt in that league!  
 

The bit where nothing has changed is trying to improve for Europe. BR has made it quite clear he wanted Castagne at Celtic, but probably wasn’t allowed to spend the cash... I’d imagine there’s a few more of those examples knocking about! Sometimes, like with Sunderland, you have to take a step back and wonder whether it’s an ingrained club issue, but as a fan that’s difficult to do so I understand why you perhaps can’t see it from that point of view. As an outsider though my view on Celtic, who used to excite me and I was desperate to go and see in a European night, is that you’re fading away and have been for a few years now.... just like Sunderland were and have continued to ever since. 
 

I personally find the signings Gerard has made since joining rangers much more interesting and I think it’s starting to show in the league and might well do in Europe this season too. 

 

One thing I always stick to on here is that i'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong if I've ended up backing the wrong horse, I did that with Puel. I'd hope given your joint allegiance you'd do the same if it proves to be the case that your transfer activity has just gone a bit stale compared to what came before it... and that it wasn't necessarily all down to one man!

Edited 7 October 2020 by AjcW

[hackneyfox]

On 06/10/2020 at 14:43, Dan LCFC said:

Only signing I definitively put on him is Castagne, who so far, has looked very good and probably our best player so far, which is a good one, but it'll take more than that to convince me, the Celtic comments didn't come from nothing and Fofana was our scouts rather than Congerton.

Steve Walsh wasn't responsible for the signings of Vardy, Mahrez, Albrighton, Kante .........?

[Muzzy_Larsson]

9 hours ago, AjcW said:

I’ve had this conversation with you before mate! I know you’ve not said anything bad, and it’s usually measured, I’ve just read a lot from Celtic fans that I don’t feel comfortable with. 
 

Whether or not players are playing games I still don’t think your tactics in the market have changed much. It’s not like you’ve suddenly started discovering gems who you’re going to sell on for millions (like the VVD/Wanyama days). It’s still for the most part meh signings who keep the squad the same (which is really all you need isn’t it, the leagues a piece of piss as long as you get a favourable result in 3 games a season 🤷‍♂️) maybe there in lies the problem, the margins are so tiny that if a player has a couple of bad games for you they’re shipped out because... how can you possibly have bad games in a Celtic shirt in that league!  
 

The bit where nothing has changed is trying to improve for Europe. BR has made it quite clear he wanted Castagne at Celtic, but probably wasn’t allowed to spend the cash... I’d imagine there’s a few more of those examples knocking about! Sometimes, like with Sunderland, you have to take a step back and wonder whether it’s an ingrained club issue, but as a fan that’s difficult to do so I understand why you perhaps can’t see it from that point of view. As an outsider though my view on Celtic, who used to excite me and I was desperate to go and see in a European night, is that you’re fading away and have been for a few years now.... just like Sunderland were and have continued to ever since. 
 

I personally find the signings Gerard has made since joining rangers much more interesting and I think it’s starting to show in the league and might well do in Europe this season too. 

 

One thing I always stick to on here is that i'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong if I've ended up backing the wrong horse, I did that with Puel. I'd hope given your joint allegiance you'd do the same if it proves to be the case that your transfer activity has just gone a bit stale compared to what came before it... and that it wasn't necessarily all down to one man!

There’ll always be players that are identified such as Castagne that we can’t afford, they wanted £12m for him so add in wages for a £12m player and that’s a bridge too far for us. Congerton as head of recruitment should have been aware of that and identified players that are attainable, that’s his job. Similarly again with the leaked list Neal Mapauy was on it who went for close to £20m, another player who was never going to be attainable. That’s poor recruitment, it’d be like Leicester chasing an £80m full back all summer, ain’t gonna happen.
 

Of course our model hasn’t changed, it has worked so well for us before and after Congerton so we’ve went back to doing that and we are actually unearthing gems again, such as Frimpong who’ll in a couple of years be worth mega money by our standards. There’s a couple of others who we’ll also make decent money on also, again a far cry from those Congerton brought in, some of whom we’re still trying to get shot of.

 

 That’s really the bones of my point, we weren’t finding anyone like that under Congerton, we weren’t even finding anyone who was good enough to play domestically as I said with many players such as Kouassi, Compper and Hendry being lucky if they played ten games. The latter actually burst into tears on the pitch one day  If it was ingrained in the club people in the job before and after him would perform similarly due to the same constraints you mention but they don’t, even the poor heads of recruitment  we’ve had look great in comparison to Congerton.

 

Under Congerton we had our worst transfer window in history in January 2018, every signing to a man was a disaster and we wasted millions. Celtic fans aren’t too bothered about signing gems to sell on for millions, if that happens then great it’s a bonus but most would settle for players who can just come in and play and compete for a first team spot and that’s why there was so much criticism of Congerton as he couldn’t even do that. Look at our window this summer for example, light years better than anything Congerton could ever manage. It’s fair enough saying he’s done a decent job at Leicester so far but please don’t try and spin it as he done anything but a horrific job at Celtic, nor afford him excuses as many have came before and after him, faced the same constraints and performed so much better. For example the guy that followed him in Nick Hammond, who the jury is still out on but has already performed miles better.

 

Interesting you say that about Gerrard as in just over two years he’s signed over 40 players, most of which have been failures and not been able to sell anyone for any money let alone big money. Recruitment is one of the Rangers fans criticisms of him pretty much across the board so I find your stance in that respect odd. Look at his three big signings this summer, Roofe at £7m, injured already, Itten barely plays and already getting flak of Rangers fans and Hagi at £3m has been terrible and is coming in for tons of criticism from the Rangers fans. That’s before you mention guys like Grezda. Of course there’s the odd decent one like Kent but his overall recruitment has been poor. 

Oh and out the 6 trophies he’s competed for he’s won none and we’ve won them all. If his name was anything other than Steven Gerrard he would have been chased out the door before now and if he doesn’t win the league this year he’s most certainly a goner.

 

 

[adam95581]

WHAT A GUY. 

 

Castagne 👏🏽👏🏽
Fofana 👏🏽👏🏽
Under 👏🏽👏🏽

[Webbo]

It's almost as if people had made their mind up about him before he had a chance.