Not Fair We Should Be Top (return of 5 subs)

[Captain...]

What about 3 subs + 2 you can name 2 extra academy* players on the bench and use them as you see fit. 

 

*Do you still have "pro" contracts? If not you'd have to be careful how you define academy. If you do it by age then Fofana ,Foden or Greenwood would probably qualify, whereas it should be players like Thomas, Fitzhugh or Dewsbury-Hall that take those spots. It will still benefit those with the best academies but fairer than just allowing 5 subs.

[sacreblueits442]

3 hours ago, Christoph said:

They should do 4 + 1 subs. The extra sub being allowed if someone is showing signs of an injury or has been injured. 

...far too open to be abused, see Dean Richards!!!

Absolutely stupid attempt to better their position, three is more than enough!

[jayfox26]

3 hours ago, MonmoreStef said:

I’m cleaning my boots.  Are black ones with metal studs still allowed?

No but if you have any old school black pumps that kids used to wear, they are ideal 

[davieG]

3 hours ago, Christoph said:

They should do 4 + 1 subs. The extra sub being allowed if someone is showing signs of an injury or has been injured. 

When a sub was first introduced into football it was for injuries only but they had to change it to "for any reason".

 

Here's Why.

 

The Football Association in England, which has never been an organisation that likes to rush decisions, refused to allow substitutes until the 1965-1966 season. When the idea of introducing substitutes was first brought into the British game the FA decided that they needed to keep as tight a leash on it as possible. As a consequence, they only allowed teams to have one player that could be brought on and even then it needed to be as a replacement for an injured player. That remained the case for two seasons, but it soon became clear that managers were bending the rules to their own advantage. Don Revie, the Leeds United manager at the time, was well-known for encouraging his players to feign injury in order to make a change so that he could influence the way that the game was going. Perhaps that’s why the Football Association amended the rules ahead of the 1967-1968 season to allow substitutions to be made for tactical reasons, too.

 

https://www.football-stadiums.co.uk/articles/substitutions-in-football/

[sacreblueits442]

3 hours ago, Christoph said:

It is but how many players are going to abuse it? And what you don't want is a player who is feeling something in their hamstring or knee to keep going because they don't want to let their team down by coming off and them not being able to replace them. As they'll end up being injured for even longer. 

 

I don't see the big issue with the subs. I don't think it made that much difference last season other then the amount of time added at the end of games. 

...as already pointed out, managers are not using all their allowances in games!!!

Your scenario just goes to show how difficult it can be for managers to get it right in regards to substitution. The trick will be to leave your last sub until the very latest but should you have an injured player after the third sub is introduced, then you will need to bring him off and re-organise.

   We need to stop pandering to the big boys, in case they choose to spit their dummy out. What are they going to do (apart from whinge) just discussing this, encourages them that it could possible happen, a flat no now, by the appropriate bodies is required to put this to bed.

[Christoph]

4 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...as already pointed out, managers are not using all their allowances in games!!!

Your scenario just goes to show how difficult it can be for managers to get it right in regards to substitution. The trick will be to leave your last sub until the very latest but should you have an injured player after the third sub is introduced, then you will need to bring him off and re-organise.

   We need to stop pandering to the big boys, in case they choose to spit their dummy out. What are they going to do (apart from whinge) just discussing this, encourages them that it could possible happen, a flat no now, by the appropriate bodies is required to put this to bed.

 

Well I was thinking the game the other week. We had used our 3 subs and then I think Evans starts touching/rubbing his back like he's done something to it. He ends up staying on the pitch because he doesn't want us to go a man down but you don't know if he could have ending up getting more injured by playing further then if he was just taken off. 

 

I can certainly see the arguments against it but I'm not sure its as black and white as a lot of people are making out. 

[davieG]

1 minute ago, Christoph said:

 

Well I was thinking the game the other week. We had used our 3 subs and then I think Evans starts touching/rubbing his back like he's done something to it. He ends up staying on the pitch because he doesn't want us to go a man down but you don't know if he could have ending up getting more injured by playing further then if he was just taken off. 

 

I can certainly see the arguments against it but I'm not sure its as black and white as a lot of people are making out. 

You could always have situation where all the subs have been used and someone is injured no matter how many subs you're allowed

[Jack1993]

It probably would benefit us this season to some degree but I absolutely hate the idea. The big clubs aren't moaning that some players might get injuries, they're complaining that they can't play their very best attacking players for 65 minutes, finish a game off then sub 4 or 5 of them off to rest. 

 

If you're worried that your very best players might get injured - Don't play them all at the same time, rotate them, if rotating them weakens your squad then your squad isn't as good as you think it is, If you know that your players might get injured and you play them anyway then the injuries are your own fault.

 

Do what everybody else does, rest some of your first team, rotate your starting 11. 

 

If you want your best 11 to start every game then take the consequences of that decision 

 

 

[sacreblueits442]

24 minutes ago, Christoph said:

 

Well I was thinking the game the other week. We had used our 3 subs and then I think Evans starts touching/rubbing his back like he's done something to it. He ends up staying on the pitch because he doesn't want us to go a man down but you don't know if he could have ending up getting more injured by playing further then if he was just taken off. 

 

I can certainly see the arguments against it but I'm not sure its as black and white as a lot of people are making out. 

...if a player gets injured and cannot continue after the third sub is used, then he comes off, no question!!!

Part of this management lark is being able to be creative in such circumstances. Many teams have played with a man short due to sending offs or injury and managers have found innovative ways in dealing with the problem. I have said before that discipline is a big part of the game and a lot of teams do not have the discipline to cope in such situations, why should we give a concession because of another teams failings.

  Paul Gascoyne was injured in a tackle which should have seen him sent off in an FA cup final, due to the event happening so early in the game it seems it was churlish to give a red and was put it down to over eagerness. A red is a red does not matter when it happens, Spurs went on to win that game when they should have been down to ten men.

  Leicester do not harangue a referee for fouls or penalties and a certain Brian Clough asked referees to book anyone of his players arguing with the referee as they are therefore not doing the job they are paid for.

  If you come up short and find yourself down to ten men, this is where the managerial skills of your manager should come to the fore.

[fuchsntf]

There is a  compromiss & some have already mentioned the varieties...

Still Keep 7-8 subs on the bench...

_# Gkeeper is a free Card & doesn't count as One of the the 3 outfield player subs,but can only be exchanged if  proven injured.

# 4 outfield players allowed..

# But 2 must be Academy players,with no more than 8 First Team games behind them, or Academy First  introduced in the same season.

    So if a 3rd sub is introduced he must be an Academy play, and Ditto for 4th sub..

# Early season ( First 15-18 PL games), flexability, only 1 from 4 subs must be academy,allowing new Incoming players time to settle,& injured

   Players to refind form...

 

If Klopp or Guardiola, cant use their Top Talented players from their Top 16-18 selection choices,then they & other Top named managers,

have been and are being vastley overrated...& Will lose their aurora, & creditability,

not only from outside neutrals, but also their own personal & Club fans..

[StanSP]

Ha, Klopp and Pep can keep crying 

 

 

[fuchsntf]

So far, its the "also ran" & lower PL Club managers are showing what Top managers they Really are,

they know Now to use their fringe/Academy players better.

 

Klopp..Guardiola,..Hang your heads in shame.!!

[MarriedaLeicesterGirl]

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

What about 3 subs + 2 you can name 2 extra academy* players on the bench and use them as you see fit. 

 

*Do you still have "pro" contracts? If not you'd have to be careful how you define academy. If you do it by age then Fofana ,Foden or Greenwood would probably qualify, whereas it should be players like Thomas, Fitzhugh or Dewsbury-Hall that take those spots. It will still benefit those with the best academies but fairer than just allowing 5 subs.

They could do it like the weird rules they have in place for the Football League Trophy, where they limit the number of senior appearances the "underage" sub has made (of course, it would still allow a Fofana, but there is a lacuna in every law.)

[davieG]

1 hour ago, fuchsntf said:

There is a  compromiss & some have already mentioned the varieties...

Still Keep 7-8 subs on the bench...

_# Gkeeper is a free Card & doesn't count as One of the the 3 outfield player subs,but can only be exchanged if  proven injured.

# 4 outfield players allowed..

# But 2 must be Academy players,with no more than 8 First Team games behind them, or Academy First  introduced in the same season.

    So if a 3rd sub is introduced he must be an Academy play, and Ditto for 4th sub..

# Early season ( First 15-18 PL games), flexability, only 1 from 4 subs must be academy,allowing new Incoming players time to settle,& injured

   Players to refind form...

 

If Klopp or Guardiola, cant use their Top Talented players from their Top 16-18 selection choices,then they & other Top named managers,

have been and are being vastley overrated...& Will lose their aurora, & creditability,

not only from outside neutrals, but also their own personal & Club fans..

This is what's wrong with the football laws these days in their attempt to clarify them them complicate them even more.

 

Keep things simple 3 subs!. You shouldn't have to search through a players career to see if they're eligible to be sub.

[Les-TA-Jon]

Hate, hate, hate this idea. The big clubs DO NOT need any more advantages. 

1) They have billion pound squads full of internationals, if they don't have the strength in depth, that's their problem

2) Bottom half clubs would be disproportionately unable to take advantage of the additional subs

3) Big clubs would be able to make big changes to their lineup for tactical reasons and still be able to influence the game with further subs later in the match (as we saw against Chelsea in FA cup last season - 3 subs at half-time with the game 0-0, which would never normally happen)

4) It gives all clubs (but let's face it the big clubs are the main culprits) more opportunity to make 'professional fouls' and take yellows in order to break up the game and stop counters

[fuchsntf]

18 minutes ago, davieG said:

This is what's wrong with the football laws these days in their attempt to clarify them them complicate them even more.

 

Keep things simple 3 subs!. You shouldn't have to search through a players career to see if they're eligible to be sub.

I picked These out...from various suggestions,where others mentioned compromise...

I personally would Keep to 3 subs.

Though The last paragraph was my own thoughts...I

 

In my Football life & interest started with " no subs" then later One sub was allowed...God could we have used that in the City vs Spurs FA.cup final..!!

Then some years later came the 3 subs.

@davieG we both have seen many changes, I Dont know how what changes modern fans & organisors will put forward Nor how many will be allowed

to be tweeked, I just hear & See even the normal fans,also look to improve the " Sports of their time", At present the FA seem to have turned their back

on the 5 subs idea..But I know some Circles who will Just  Keep Knocking on the door...So discussions & other People ideas are worth looking at...

 

 

[trabuch]

3 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

I picked These out...from various suggestions,where others mentioned compromise...

I personally would Keep to 3 subs.

Though The last paragraph was my own thoughts...I

 

In my Football life & interest started with " no subs" then later One sub was allowed...God could we have used that in the City vs Spurs FA.cup final..!!

Then some years later came the 3 subs.

@davieG we both have seen many changes, I Dont know how what changes modern fans & organisors will put forward Nor how many will be allowed

to be tweeked, I just hear & See even the normal fans,also look to improve the " Sports of their time", At present the FA seem to have turned their back

on the 5 subs idea..But I know some Circles who will Just  Keep Knocking on the door...So discussions & other People ideas are worth looking at...

 

 

As long as we don't get into a "special teams" situation... with subs going on and off and back on again.

[Vardinio'sCat]

 

Pep and Jurgen are going to have to get a grip and rotate more, instead of crying about it.

 

Surprising to see these icons struggling to adapt to this special season, they should have more humility.

[sylofox]

22 hours ago, brookfox said:

Subs should be based on previous seasons league position. 1st last year get up to 20 subs, 2nd 19 subs, 3rd 18 subs all the way down to 1 sub for whoever came up through the playoffs. It’s the only fair way really.

WTF?

[HighPeakFox]

9 minutes ago, sylofox said:

WTF?

I reckon there's a small possibility he was taking the piss. Maybe, you know.

[sylofox]

17 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Pep and Jurgen are going to have to get a grip and rotate more, instead of crying about it.

 

Surprising to see these icons struggling to adapt to this special season, they should have more humility.

Not sure where you've been since the prem started. Fergie and Wenger moaned. Jose Potch and now Klopp and Pep are.

 

They all want all the money and all the games. But the minute they are not top dogs they use every excuse.

 

Six want out for money and so the likes of us cant make them look stupid.

 

Surely being bottom of the super league every seasons going to make them look stupid. All they do is moan like spoilt little brats. Let them go but come back you start none league. Now **** off.

[1972 Fox]

There is no way that 5 subs should be allowed to happen, despite the increase in injuries.

 

It will benefit the clubs with bigger squads and once it is in it will be in for good. Some games will become like meaningless international friendlies when 5 subs are being used by both sides.

[fuchsntf]

39 minutes ago, trabuch said:

As long as we don't get into a "special teams" situation... with subs going on and off and back on again.

That would be Changing the game altogether....

I Dont like or agree with the amount of replacements in rugby. They should have subs,Plus heavy injury or Blood replacements,

but no 5-6 replacements,to Change  the swing,or protect your game .

[Manwell Pablo]

20 hours ago, st albans fox said:

 Nothing to do with the FA

 

its a prem league thing ......

Indeed they will need FA approval for it go through though I’d of thought.

[sacreblueits442]

4 hours ago, fuchsntf said:

There is a  compromiss & some have already mentioned the varieties...

Still Keep 7-8 subs on the bench...

_# Gkeeper is a free Card & doesn't count as One of the the 3 outfield player subs,but can only be exchanged if  proven injured.

# 4 outfield players allowed..

# But 2 must be Academy players,with no more than 8 First Team games behind them, or Academy First  introduced in the same season.

    So if a 3rd sub is introduced he must be an Academy play, and Ditto for 4th sub..

# Early season ( First 15-18 PL games), flexability, only 1 from 4 subs must be academy,allowing new Incoming players time to settle,& injured

   Players to refind form...

 

If Klopp or Guardiola, cant use their Top Talented players from their Top 16-18 selection choices,then they & other Top named managers,

have been and are being vastley overrated...& Will lose their aurora, & creditability,

not only from outside neutrals, but also their own personal & Club fans..

...so, why are you pandering to them!!!