Not The Politics Thread.

[bmt]

First election I've stood in. Thanks to anyone who voted Greens in Markfield, Desford and Thornton!

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 

But people do see it as a change because Brexit is wedged in the middle and therefore it looks like a departure from the Cameron, Clegg, Blair 00s version of politics. The faff after Brexit undoubtedly amplified it such that, for many, the 2019 outward incarnation of the Conservatives is actual change compared to Conservative to Labour.

 

This is the point the chap in the Guardian made this week, Labour spends too much time fighting past elections and most of the time they miss the boat as a result. Consternation that a party that has been in government for 11 years being able to present itself as the vehicle for change misses that for most people Brexit is a catalyst for change (or an illusion of change) and the Conservatives realigned to take advantage of it. It won't be this easy for them forever, but it remains to be seen if Labour will beat them to the punch for upcoming shifts, either small or large.

 

I can see that Brexit allows the Tories to present themselves as new and different. A party of government being able to reinvent itself (or reinvent its image, at least) is clever, opportunistic party politics.

I suppose that I just find it frustrating that so many voters can immediately accept that and almost disconnect the Johnson Govt from everything that happened between 2010 and 2019.

 

In contrast, any baggage that Labour accumulates seems to remain in voters' minds for an eternity. Blame of Labour for the 2008 crash continued for the best part of a decade. Like May, Corbyn has been replaced by a very different leader, yet mistrust of Labour as the "woke", ultra-Left party persists, whereas Johnson's Tories are just seen as a shiny new entity. Plus, when TV interviewers speak to "red wall" Lab-Con switch voters, they'll often say that Labour's done nothing for them - presumably remembering that Labour didn't do enough for them while in office 11-24 years ago, while forgetting that the Tories did even less for them over the more recent period. Maybe that's just an argument that Labour should reinvent itself more - or more cleverly?

 

I'm not sure what past elections Labour is fighting now?

It's probably a fair point to say that about Blair & Miliband (Corbyn being more of an ideology-led anomaly).

 

If the suggestion is that Labour is still fighting austerity Toryism when Johnson has moved on to levelling up, it's not yet clear what the Tory approach will be in practice (as opposed to rhetoric), is it?

There's plenty of talk of levelling up, but there will also be strong Tory instincts to reduce the massive Covid-induced debt, probably via public spending cuts rather than tax rises as that's a deep-seated Tory preference.

Though they'll probably be cunning enough to continue with targeted measures like free ports and pork barrel investment in marginal seats....which might work for them electorally.

 

Aside from Labour's past baggage (everything from Blair to Corbyn), I thought the main criticism of Starmer was not that he was fighting past battles, but that he wasn't fighting any battles - not showing people what Labour stands for?

I'd say that's unfair criticism - until maybe the last couple of months. How the hell he was supposed to inspire the nation in the middle of a pandemic, I'm not sure.....though he definitely needs to get on with it now and over the next year.

 

Red wall rejection of Labour as "Remainers" continues, it seems. Maybe that will fade, as time passes and other issues emerge. But Starmer has already made it clear that Labour has accepted Brexit and it's time to move on and make the best of it for the nation. That stance is unpopular with many Lab members and voters, though I agree with it myself. Maybe Labour needs to grasp this nettle more firmly - actively proposing ways of promoting post-Brexit trade/investment, improving post-Brexit arrangements with the EU etc? 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Maybe we can read some things into election polling after all.

 

 

[Milo]

10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I can see that Brexit allows the Tories to present themselves as new and different. A party of government being able to reinvent itself (or reinvent its image, at least) is clever, opportunistic party politics.

I suppose that I just find it frustrating that so many voters can immediately accept that and almost disconnect the Johnson Govt from everything that happened between 2010 and 2019.

 

In contrast, any baggage that Labour accumulates seems to remain in voters' minds for an eternity. Blame of Labour for the 2008 crash continued for the best part of a decade. Like May, Corbyn has been replaced by a very different leader, yet mistrust of Labour as the "woke", ultra-Left party persists, whereas Johnson's Tories are just seen as a shiny new entity. Plus, when TV interviewers speak to "red wall" Lab-Con switch voters, they'll often say that Labour's done nothing for them - presumably remembering that Labour didn't do enough for them while in office 11-24 years ago, while forgetting that the Tories did even less for them over the more recent period. Maybe that's just an argument that Labour should reinvent itself more - or more cleverly?

 

I'm not sure what past elections Labour is fighting now?

It's probably a fair point to say that about Blair & Miliband (Corbyn being more of an ideology-led anomaly).

 

If the suggestion is that Labour is still fighting austerity Toryism when Johnson has moved on to levelling up, it's not yet clear what the Tory approach will be in practice (as opposed to rhetoric), is it?

There's plenty of talk of levelling up, but there will also be strong Tory instincts to reduce the massive Covid-induced debt, probably via public spending cuts rather than tax rises as that's a deep-seated Tory preference.

Though they'll probably be cunning enough to continue with targeted measures like free ports and pork barrel investment in marginal seats....which might work for them electorally.

 

Aside from Labour's past baggage (everything from Blair to Corbyn), I thought the main criticism of Starmer was not that he was fighting past battles, but that he wasn't fighting any battles - not showing people what Labour stands for?

I'd say that's unfair criticism - until maybe the last couple of months. How the hell he was supposed to inspire the nation in the middle of a pandemic, I'm not sure.....though he definitely needs to get on with it now and over the next year.

 

Red wall rejection of Labour as "Remainers" continues, it seems. Maybe that will fade, as time passes and other issues emerge. But Starmer has already made it clear that Labour has accepted Brexit and it's time to move on and make the best of it for the nation. That stance is unpopular with many Lab members and voters, though I agree with it myself. Maybe Labour needs to grasp this nettle more firmly - actively proposing ways of promoting post-Brexit trade/investment, improving post-Brexit arrangements with the EU etc? 

It's a bit odd, isn't it.

 

I've always got the impression that Labour don't particularly like the electorate and blame them for making the 'wrong choice' each time they vote the Tories in.

 

Decades of hand wringing has done nothing to change the direction of the party - I assume there will have to be a split between the hard left and the centrists to allow some kind of progression. Obviously that would decimate their numbers, though.

 

I really don't think there is an appetite in this country for a Labour government, and hasn't been for decades. Blair was Blair, not Labour. 

 

Time for the Lib Dems to step up?!    

[Zear0]

37 minutes ago, bmt said:

First election I've stood in. Thanks to anyone who voted Greens in Markfield, Desford and Thornton!

You're welcome!  Probably glad you didn't canvas for votes on this forum noting Ric's shocking performance in the FA cup votes.

[AjcW]

3 hours ago, thursday_next said:

I have talked to maybe 25 voters, 4 Labour and 21 Conservatives (approximately). That piece of political polling, however limited, yields the following results:

 

The Conservative voters are all agreed on two things - they regard the government as 'not able to do a thing right for the sake of doing it wrong' at the outset of the pandemic, and they really really hate woke, which rightly or wrongly is seen as a Labour concept despite the fact that a lot of Labour MP's would secretly rather do without it. 

 

No other explanation is required. Even the Labour voters are split on the question of woke, which makes their ongoing political strategy somewhat flawed. They have to find a way of keeping the young voters on their side while not outraging the other parts of England (the sort that vote). It's a difficult problem, which Labour will fudge until the next election comes. Labour will lose heavily, proving they don't learn, but it's difficult to see any other course they can take.

It's a pretty bleak thing to say, but I think Labour and Labour's left commentators give people far too much credit when it comes to how much of a shit they give about other people less fortunate than them. The vast majority of their supporters would rather see policy's that look after number one, with a smattering of help for others too to stay 'on brand'

 

Their whole narrative is around cuts, people who have been let down etc etc... but if you or the people around you are doing okay, it's tough to attach yourself to that. Probably even more tough over the last year as the majority have been very much in their own worlds detached from interacting with those outside of their close circle.

 

Simple fact is a lot of people, especially those who sit in the political middle, are doing 'just fine' and therefore they'll more than likely stick with conservative or vote Green/LD. Whilst doing their bit in their own way to help others, rather than relying on a political party to do so.

 

A poster above made a good point that compliments this, those in the 'Red Wall' have been able to buy housing in the last ten years, their 'problem' has been fixed and it's been fixed (rightly or wrongly) under Conservative Government, so of course they're more likely to attach themselves to that party.

 

Labour do well when the shit fully hits the fan, so they might see a recovery once it becomes apparent how we are paying back all our pandemic debt... 

 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

2 minutes ago, AjcW said:

Simple fact is a lot of people, especially those who sit in the political middle, are doing 'just fine' and therefore they'll more than likely stick with conservative or vote Green/LD.

Whilst doing their bit in their own way to help others, rather than relying on a political party to do so.

I think this is incredibly accurate.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, AjcW said:

It's a pretty bleak thing to say, but I think Labour and Labour's left commentators give people far too much credit when it comes to how much of a shit they give about other people less fortunate than them. The vast majority of their supporters would rather see policy's that look after number one, with a smattering of help for others too to stay 'on brand'

 

Their whole narrative is around cuts, people who have been let down etc etc... but if you or the people around you are doing okay, it's tough to attach yourself to that. Probably even more tough over the last year as the majority have been very much in their own worlds detached from interacting with those outside of their close circle.

 

Simple fact is a lot of people, especially those who sit in the political middle, are doing 'just fine' and therefore they'll more than likely stick with conservative or vote Green/LD. Whilst doing their bit in their own way to help others, rather than relying on a political party to do so.

 

A poster above made a good point that compliments this, those in the 'Red Wall' have been able to buy housing in the last ten years, their 'problem' has been fixed and it's been fixed (rightly or wrongly) under Conservative Government, so of course they're more likely to attach themselves to that party.

 

Labour do well when the shit fully hits the fan, so they might see a recovery once it becomes apparent how we are paying back all our pandemic debt... 

 

"We can care deeply - selflessly - about those we know, but that empathy rarely extends beyond our line of sight."

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Milo said:

It's a bit odd, isn't it.

 

I've always got the impression that Labour don't particularly like the electorate and blame them for making the 'wrong choice' each time they vote the Tories in.

 

Decades of hand wringing has done nothing to change the direction of the party - I assume there will have to be a split between the hard left and the centrists to allow some kind of progression. Obviously that would decimate their numbers, though.

 

I really don't think there is an appetite in this country for a Labour government, and hasn't been for decades. Blair was Blair, not Labour. 

 

Time for the Lib Dems to step up?!    

 

I'm curious as to how you get the impression that Labour don't like the electorate? Which Labour people give you this impression and where?

All parties regret the electorate's decision when they lose, don't they? Or do the Tories congratulate the electorate on their wise judgment when Labour or the SNP win? 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "decades of hand wringing", except that you perhaps feel contempt for Labour or its supporters for unexplained reasons?

The direction of the party has changed quite a lot over decades, hasn't it? Foot -> Kinnock -> Blair/Brown -> Miliband -> Corbyn -> Starmer.....I see several changes of direction in there, for better or worse.

 

It would be healthier for our politics if Labour were able to become 2 or more parties - and the same applies to the Tories. But it would be electoral suicide to split under FPTP.

I know that I've bored on about this before, but it was a truly massive, short-sighted gaffe for Labour under Blair to renege on their promised electoral reform referendum - at a time when it might well have been won. Politics could have been very different for the past 20 years.....

 

That comment about Blair v. Labour shows how Starmer needs to build a new party identity - building on core values, appealing policies and pragmatic compromise to present a party that people DO want in Govt.

Might draw on Old Labour, New Labour, Corbyn Labour but with new/different ideas (devolution of power to people? environmental investment? affordable housing? pride in aspects of modern Britain, not cringeworthy union jack stunts?).

 

I think the Lib Dems are even further from stepping up than Labour! Though maybe if the Tories win several more elections (I don't believe that's inevitable), parties of the centre-left will feel compelled to form some sort of alliance?

Or maybe once we're living in 50-degree temperatures with the sea covering London and East Anglia, people will turn to the Greens? 

[Milo]

59 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

I'm curious as to how you get the impression that Labour don't like the electorate? Which Labour people give you this impression and where?

All parties regret the electorate's decision when they lose, don't they? Or do the Tories congratulate the electorate on their wise judgment when Labour or the SNP win? 

Don't be silly!

 

The internal fallout from Labour's 2019 record loss seemed, to me at least, to consist of the "We didn't get our message across correctly", rather than "Our message was shit" variety. (Momentum)?

 

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "decades of hand wringing", except that you perhaps feel contempt for Labour or its supporters for unexplained reasons?

The direction of the party has changed quite a lot over decades, hasn't it? Foot -> Kinnock -> Blair/Brown -> Miliband -> Corbyn -> Starmer.....I see several changes of direction in there, for better or worse.

Huh? I have traditionally voted Labour.

 

As for the change of direction - not really. Foot/Kinnock/Corbyn all a bit samey...Milliband and Starmer appear to be fairly non-effective similar and Blair doesn't count. Labour is still perceived as living in the 80's*

 

As for the hand wringing comment - check out Steve Reed being interviewed on the Today programme this morning. Very candid and spoke well regarding Hartlepool and the way forward (or backward) for Labour.

 

 

 

 

 

*As well you know, my comments and opinions rarely stand up to forensic analysis.      

[Kopfkino]

3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

I can see that Brexit allows the Tories to present themselves as new and different. A party of government being able to reinvent itself (or reinvent its image, at least) is clever, opportunistic party politics.

I suppose that I just find it frustrating that so many voters can immediately accept that and almost disconnect the Johnson Govt from everything that happened between 2010 and 2019.

 

In contrast, any baggage that Labour accumulates seems to remain in voters' minds for an eternity.

Well voters accept it because they've managed to sound like they've listened to them for a change/got done what they wanted to get done. The Conservative party of now is clearly distinct from 10-16 with May's period being a holding period that created an opening to reinvent itself for electoral success. Quite clearly when the message and the messenger are clearly different, it's pretty easy to disconnect it all. He very publicly purged those that didn't buy into the message.

 

Of course it's nonsense to insinuate that baggage sticks with Labour but not Cons. People who weren't even conceived when Blair became PM will talk about the 'nasty' party and evil Thatcher and they faced some similar problems during the Blair years as Labour has to reckon with now, namely being well off on public feeling. For plenty of time it has had the image of being for the rich/posh/the south etc. Now Labour has to put up with the fact it's seen as the snooty party and being populated by distant snobs.

 

Labour is perfectly able to change, hence it's abandoned any idea of conservatism in favour of metropolitan hyper-progressivism and paternalistic intellectualism. It backed the wrong horse for now.

 

3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Aside from Labour's past baggage (everything from Blair to Corbyn), I thought the main criticism of Starmer was not that he was fighting past battles, but that he wasn't fighting any battles - not showing people what Labour stands for?

I'd say that's unfair criticism - until maybe the last couple of months. How the hell he was supposed to inspire the nation in the middle of a pandemic, I'm not sure.....though he definitely needs to get on with it now and over the next year.

Look the pandemic makes it hard to make an impact, sure it's not the easiest circumstances to do what's need and Starmer is only ever likely to be the stop the rot guy for someone else to build on. However, it's also an easy excuse when Marcus Rashford has been able to achieve more using Twitter. Long-term he has to build a consistent narrative and find an issue to frame in his terms. There is nothing about the pandemic that has prevented that starting yet I struggle to see where it is. Maybe he's been unfortunate that the vaccine roll out snuffed out his competence message for now.

 

 

3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

I'm not sure what past elections Labour is fighting now?

It's probably a fair point to say that about Blair & Miliband (Corbyn being more of an ideology-led anomaly).

My point was that, you as a Labour member, talking about the length of the same party being in government is looking back to what is now ancient history in political terms. It's a point that might make sense in a non-Brexit world but has been rendered completely moot by Brexit. However, s the chap in the Guardian pointed out, the message around sleaze is basically an outraged CC reincarnation of the 90s and essentially Labour often ends up fighting it's own comforting caricature of what the Conservatives were at some point in time.

Edited 7 May 2021 by Kopfkino

[Kopfkino]

4 hours ago, bmt said:

First election I've stood in. Thanks to anyone who voted Greens in Markfield, Desford and Thornton!

Well played even if the result didnt go your way. Greens doing great across lots of different and varied areas of the country which is interesting to see.

 

Personally can't get on board with the UK version of a Green Party but glad to see the Green message getting more democratic traction

[CosbehFox]

It’s been touched upon here in the last few posts and mentioned it this morning when using the home ownership relationship. 
 

Labour need to analyse those voters that switch to Con. Consistently dismissing it as ‘Brexit’ is poor and doesn’t stick. Look deeper and do the hard yards. 
 

For a bit of ying to yang, Labour have just taken a Canterbury Council seat with a huge swing. Likely to be caused by the situation Kent has found itself due to Brexit and partly the changing demographic who lives in Canterbury. I suspect over the next ten years there will be some traditional Tory areas what start to turn because of a more ‘mobile’ youth 

[bovril]

Since we all love polls

 

 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

Since we all love polls

 

 

#LabourSurge

#NoStarmergeddenAfterAll

#NotTwentyPointsAheadYet

#InKeithWeTrust

[Mike Oxlong]

Unfortunately it appears that we are at risk of becoming a one party state 

 

[Bellend Sebastian]

We get what we deserve

[Legend_in_blue]

The worst part by far of the latest round of voting was seeing Boris strut around Hartlepool as if the vote there was vindication for how well he's done since coming in.  And locals reasoning for it was cringeworthy.  

 

 

[Facecloth]

17 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

The worst part by far of the latest round of voting was seeing Boris strut around Hartlepool as if the vote there was vindication for how well he's done since coming in.  And locals reasoning for it was cringeworthy.  

 

 

Theres was a guy on the news earlier from Hartlepool. Said he voted tory because he wants more police and a new hospital. So he voted for a party who cut police numbers and has already said they'll only be building 6 of the 40 hospitals promised.

[Legend_in_blue]

4 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Theres was a guy on the news earlier from Hartlepool. Said he voted tory because he wants more police and a new hospital. So he voted for a party who cut police numbers and has already said they'll only be building 6 of the 40 hospitals promised.

The problem I've got with local elections is that it's never really portrayed as local issues.  It always boils down to a vote for Westminster.  Yes, a leaflet or two (or three if you're lucky) through the door and that's it, despite what Bridgen was claiming on TV last night about candidates being out there speaking to the elecorate.  And why is he taking to the stage?  It shouldn't be about him or Boris or any other MP.  As you can probably guess, I didn't bother voting yesterday, never felt so pointless and a waste of time in all the years of voting.  

[Facecloth]

[Lionator]

The right have played a blinder with the whole 'woke' thing. It's a term invented by the right wing to trick people into thinking that everyone on the left wants to tear up 'traditional' British values (when it doesn't). And because it's an emotive topic, people fall hook line and sinker for it.  

[Fightforever]

Out everyone I spoke to who voted Tory their only main reason they voted for them is to keep the likes of Emily Thornberry, Diane Abbott and the rest of the woke brigade out of power. 

It's a shame but what can you do. Most people want to hold on to old ways.

 

Unless Labour publicly distances itself from the social policies of the far left I don't think they will win an election for the next 30 years minimum.

 

To be fair I reckon the far left will eat itself alive in 10 years anyway but you never know.

 

Your average working class voter in Stoke hates everything about woke culture and they won't vote for it in their lifetime even if it means voting Tory.

 

Don't ask me why they hate the woke this much but that's what I have gathered talking to people who didn't vote labour this time around.

Edited 8 May 2021 by Fightforever

[The whole world smiles]

20 hours ago, bmt said:

First election I've stood in. Thanks to anyone who voted Greens in Markfield, Desford and Thornton!

How did you get on? 

[Sharpe's Fox]

Greater Manchester, Preston and South Wales all bucking national trends and voting Labour despite pundits saying the left is not a viable electoral position. These authorities are run by socialists and are investing in communities and bringing outsourced services back in house to serve their electorate. Almost as if opposing the government and providing a decent service is desirable, who knew?

Edited 8 May 2021 by Sharpe's Fox