Defensive midfield issues

[tickler28]

I don't know about anyone else but I can't help but feel that this is currently our biggest achilles heel. Since Ndidis form has dropped off a cliff....Soumare is a bombscare I only feel that I can trust Mendy but he's not enough on his own which is where the defensive qualities of Tielemans and KDH are brought into question (Youri doesn't commit to tackles for me and KDH gets caught up field a lot). Theoretically Soumare should be in the mould of a Doucoure or Fabinho but sadly he's not really very good. For me we're not winning enough midfield duels and this is then leaving our defence heavily exposed...plus we give the ball away far to much....anyone else agree?

[Fosse93]

2 minutes ago, tickler28 said:

I don't know about anyone else but I can't help but feel that this is currently our biggest achilles heel. Since Ndidis form has dropped off a cliff....Soumare is a bombscare I only feel that I can trust Mendy but he's not enough on his own which is where the defensive qualities of Tielemans and KDH are brought into question (Youri doesn't commit to tackles for me and KDH gets caught up field a lot). Theoretically Soumare should be in the mould of a Doucoure or Fabinho but sadly he's not really very good. For me we're not winning enough midfield duels and this is then leaving our defence heavily exposed...plus we give the ball away far to much....anyone else agree?

Couldn't agree more.

 

It was the area we needed to strengthen the most in January - you could argue it was CB, but given we had Soyuncu fit and available and he just wasn't being picked by Rodgers, it's harder to make that claim now I think.

 

A defensive midfielder who could pick a pass would've transformed the team. I almost can't believe Rodgers never managed to get one in, as it was pivotal to the way he likes to set his teams up (think Joe Allen at Swansea, Gerrard in his latter years at Liverpool). Playing possession based football with Ndidi or Soumare as a CDM is going to cause issues. Mendy is the best of the lot but even then he lacks physicality and plays too safe, not breaking lines etc.

[ClaphamFox]

16 minutes ago, tickler28 said:

I don't know about anyone else but I can't help but feel that this is currently our biggest achilles heel. Since Ndidis form has dropped off a cliff....Soumare is a bombscare I only feel that I can trust Mendy but he's not enough on his own which is where the defensive qualities of Tielemans and KDH are brought into question (Youri doesn't commit to tackles for me and KDH gets caught up field a lot). Theoretically Soumare should be in the mould of a Doucoure or Fabinho but sadly he's not really very good. For me we're not winning enough midfield duels and this is then leaving our defence heavily exposed...plus we give the ball away far to much....anyone else agree?

Yes, hence why I think Smith will stick to three at the back on Saturday, with Mendy as the CDM. Ndidi's game is all about tackling and breaking up opposition attacks - if he can't do that, there's no point in him being in the team. At the moment he's just a liability. Mendy is by no means a world-beating CDM but at least he puts himself about and he's a tidy passer of the ball. At the moment he's head and shoulders above Ndidi. We're just not strong in that position any more, so it makes sense to play three central defenders with Mendy in front of them.

Edited 18 April 2023 by ClaphamFox

[The boy Linacre]

33 minutes ago, tickler28 said:

I don't know about anyone else but I can't help but feel that this is currently our biggest achilles heel. Since Ndidis form has dropped off a cliff....Soumare is a bombscare I only feel that I can trust Mendy but he's not enough on his own which is where the defensive qualities of Tielemans and KDH are brought into question (Youri doesn't commit to tackles for me and KDH gets caught up field a lot). Theoretically Soumare should be in the mould of a Doucoure or Fabinho but sadly he's not really very good. For me we're not winning enough midfield duels and this is then leaving our defence heavily exposed...plus we give the ball away far to much....anyone else agree?

Nothing to add, in a nutshell.

[The boy Linacre]

As a short term fix, thinking out of the box with what we have, Faes or Cags as the CDM, both can pass better than Wilf and they can tackle and run with the ball when required.  Quicker and bigger than Mendy AND he generally passes the ball square ALL the time or just ships it on.

Crux being 2/3 centre backs and 1 CDM out of Souttar, Cags. Jonny & Wout.

[Finnegan]

We only have two at the club, Ndidi and Mendy.

 

Soumare isn't a defensive midfielder, he's a box to box midfielder, the same as KDH. Neither should be relied upon to screen the back four, neither of them have the instincts for it and it's a waste of both their skillsets. We haven't really seen the best of Soumare at Leicester, there's no denying that, but in his title winning season in France he wasn't vastly different to KDH at his best for us - surging forward with the ball to get it up the pitch.

 

What was absolutely gutting about the Ndidi fvck up against Villa for the winner was that until that point he was one of the best players on the pitch, it was like Old Wilf was back, it was probably his best game in a couple years. He was absolutely everywhere. If that's how he'd been playing all season (well tbf if he'd played like that all season we probably wouldn't be in the bottom 3) then you could forgive that mistake against Villa, you'd shrug it off and say "fair enough, we were down to 10 and the whole team was panicking and he should have had support etc etc". But the fact it was just ANOTHER Ndidi gives the ball away after a whole season of it you can't really ignore.

[st albans fox]

2 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

We only have two at the club, Ndidi and Mendy.

 

Soumare isn't a defensive midfielder, he's a box to box midfielder, the same as KDH. Neither should be relied upon to screen the back four, neither of them have the instincts for it and it's a waste of both their skillsets. We haven't really seen the best of Soumare at Leicester, there's no denying that, but in his title winning season in France he wasn't vastly different to KDH at his best for us - surging forward with the ball to get it up the pitch.

 

What was absolutely gutting about the Ndidi fvck up against Villa for the winner was that until that point he was one of the best players on the pitch, it was like Old Wilf was back, it was probably his best game in a couple years. He was absolutely everywhere. If that's how he'd been playing all season (well tbf if he'd played like that all season we probably wouldn't be in the bottom 3) then you could forgive that mistake against Villa, you'd shrug it off and say "fair enough, we were down to 10 and the whole team was panicking and he should have had support etc etc". But the fact it was just ANOTHER Ndidi gives the ball away after a whole season of it you can't really ignore.

If wilf hadn’t been a bomb scare on Saturday you could brush it off 

 

but when it happens game after game -  you can’t 

Edited 18 April 2023 by st albans fox

[Daggers]

12 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

Soumare isn't a defensive midfielder, he's a box to box midfielder

Surely, a B2B player has to be able to do it without needing an Uber or using an electric scooter?

 

I’ve no idea what Soumare is. He’s blagging a living. 

[Beachyboy]

7 minutes ago, The boy Linacre said:

As a short term fix, thinking out of the box with what we have, Faes or Cags as the CDM, both can pass better than Wilf and they can tackle and run with the ball when required.  Quicker and bigger than Mendy AND he generally passes the ball square ALL the time or just ships it on.

Crux being 2/3 centre backs and 1 CDM out of Souttar, Cags. Jonny & Wout.

Given that we are so low on wide options, I'm sure we could have something where we set up with 3cbs of Faes, Souttar, Cags and if any of the 3 want to dribble/pass the ball forwards Castagne just fills in the space. We could then play Mendy/Tielemans/ Maddison, and Nacho/Daka Barnes when fit. We press from the front with the 3. 1 or two of the midfielders could quickly then retreat if it looks like the press is played through. There is so many other things we could of tried this season but haven't.

[kiwiturk]

Putting Cags on defensive midfield position may actually work.

 

We have enough defenders already at least Cags fights, athletic and fast enough to face attacking opposition players before they get into our box also he's got a bit of ball skills as well.

Why not?

 

Edited 18 April 2023 by kiwiturk

[AKCJ]

36 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

We haven't really seen the best of Soumare at Leicester, there's no denying that, but in his title winning season in France he wasn't vastly different to KDH at his best for us - surging forward with the ball to get it up the pitch.

 

Soumare has been here for 2 years and has played for us over 50 times.

 

I've still not seen him sprint. The blokes a lazy bastard who shouldn't ever be allowed to play for us again.

[jim5000]

1 hour ago, tickler28 said:

I don't know about anyone else but I can't help but feel that this is currently our biggest achilles heel. Since Ndidis form has dropped off a cliff....Soumare is a bombscare I only feel that I can trust Mendy but he's not enough on his own which is where the defensive qualities of Tielemans and KDH are brought into question (Youri doesn't commit to tackles for me and KDH gets caught up field a lot). Theoretically Soumare should be in the mould of a Doucoure or Fabinho but sadly he's not really very good. For me we're not winning enough midfield duels and this is then leaving our defence heavily exposed...plus we give the ball away far to much....anyone else agree?

100%.

 

Its odd that Ndidi, Tielemans, and Maddison was seen as one of the best midfield 3s in the country only 12 months ago, and now it is in the process of being dismantled and Ndidi couldn’t stop an old lady crossing the road.

 

Soumare is a disaster, stealing his living as a professional footballer. Mendy is ok but not enough by himself as a DM, and KDH is a limited box to box midfielder, not a defensive player.

Edited 18 April 2023 by jim5000

[Finnegan]

1 minute ago, jim5000 said:

Its odd that Ndidi, Tielemans, and Maddison was seen as one of the best midfield 3s in the country only 12 months ago, and now it is in the process of being dismantled and Ndidi couldn’t stop an old lady crossing the road.

 

For me, the break up of that midfield has largely caused our downfall. It's certainly a massive contributor to Ndidi's exposure and decline.

 

I still think if you could get the three of them back together and playing at their absolute peak in the proper configuration (two free 8s and a holding midfielder) then there aren't many teams in the Premier League still with an actual better midfield. Especially given how much Maddison has taken his game to another level.

 

But having them both playing as actual CMs either side of Wilf meant that one of them (or both) was always dropping to get on the ball from the midfield and help us build from the back. It meant you never really needed CBs to be trying to pass it to Wilf's feet and relying on his ability to trap a ball and pick a pass out. It also took considerable pressure off the CBs themselves to be able to build from the back and play out. 

[Tom12345]

40 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

For me, the break up of that midfield has largely caused our downfall. It's certainly a massive contributor to Ndidi's exposure and decline.

 

I still think if you could get the three of them back together and playing at their absolute peak in the proper configuration (two free 8s and a holding midfielder) then there aren't many teams in the Premier League still with an actual better midfield. Especially given how much Maddison has taken his game to another level.

 

But having them both playing as actual CMs either side of Wilf meant that one of them (or both) was always dropping to get on the ball from the midfield and help us build from the back. It meant you never really needed CBs to be trying to pass it to Wilf's feet and relying on his ability to trap a ball and pick a pass out. It also took considerable pressure off the CBs themselves to be able to build from the back and play out. 

But doing so means that we often find ourselves not having enough players up the pitch to be at all threatening. I don’t understand why the team selection needs to continue to work around one player, Ndidi, who seems undroppable to any coach unless he is injured, despite him being clearly out of form, not providing what he needs to provide and even worst costing us so many points during the season with his mistakes. We should instead focus on how to get out of the press efficiently and get the best out of our attacking talent in Maddison, Nacho, Barnes, Tielemans (he should be playing further forward more often instead of always coming back because Ndidi), and not worry about trying to preserve Ndidi’s “breaking up play” - what we have been doing has clearly not worked with the pretty bad defensive record we have this and last season.

 

 I agree with you 100% though we need to take the pressure of the CBs to play out from the back and hence why it is important the player in front of them who is meant to protect them can play basic football.

Edited 18 April 2023 by Tom12345

[volpeazzurro]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

We only have two at the club, Ndidi and Mendy.

 

Soumare isn't a defensive midfielder, he's a box to box midfielder, the same as KDH. Neither should be relied upon to screen the back four, neither of them have the instincts for it and it's a waste of both their skillsets. We haven't really seen the best of Soumare at Leicester, there's no denying that, but in his title winning season in France he wasn't vastly different to KDH at his best for us - surging forward with the ball to get it up the pitch.

 

What was absolutely gutting about the Ndidi fvck up against Villa for the winner was that until that point he was one of the best players on the pitch, it was like Old Wilf was back, it was probably his best game in a couple years. He was absolutely everywhere. If that's how he'd been playing all season (well tbf if he'd played like that all season we probably wouldn't be in the bottom 3) then you could forgive that mistake against Villa, you'd shrug it off and say "fair enough, we were down to 10 and the whole team was panicking and he should have had support etc etc". But the fact it was just ANOTHER Ndidi gives the ball away after a whole season of it you can't really ignore.

Soumare is neither a defensive or box to box midfielder, that's the point, and Rodgers played him there.

[lcfc_forever]

Given this issue with defensive midfielders, we have to play 3 atb with Mendy and Tielemans as the midfield pivot. 

 

I think they work well alongside each other. 

[Finnegan]

42 minutes ago, Tom12345 said:

But doing so means that we often find ourselves not having enough players up the pitch to be at all threatening

 

The best football we've played at this football club since the title winning season was in a 433 with Maddison and Tielemans both playing as centre mids either side of a deeper lying Ndidi. 

 

We weren't struggling to get bodies up the pitch to be threatening when we scored 9 against Southampton and 5 against Newcastle whilst winning 12 out of 14 games to go 2nd in the table in 19/20.

 

We then changed the shape (largely because Rodgers had a melt-down after losing to Man City and Liverpool because he refused to be conservative) and lost something like 8 out of our last 19 games. So yknow.

[RumbleFox]

I think it has to be 3 at the back with Mendy as DM in a midfield 3 at the moment. In a 3 he’s an effective if unspectacular player. Longer term who knows. 
 

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

We only have two at the club, Ndidi and Mendy.

 

Soumare isn't a defensive midfielder, he's a box to box midfielder, the same as KDH. Neither should be relied upon to screen the back four, neither of them have the instincts for it and it's a waste of both their skillsets. We haven't really seen the best of Soumare at Leicester, there's no denying that, but in his title winning season in France he wasn't vastly different to KDH at his best for us - surging forward with the ball to get it up the pitch.

 

What was absolutely gutting about the Ndidi fvck up against Villa for the winner was that until that point he was one of the best players on the pitch, it was like Old Wilf was back, it was probably his best game in a couple years. He was absolutely everywhere. If that's how he'd been playing all season (well tbf if he'd played like that all season we probably wouldn't be in the bottom 3) then you could forgive that mistake against Villa, you'd shrug it off and say "fair enough, we were down to 10 and the whole team was panicking and he should have had support etc etc". But the fact it was just ANOTHER Ndidi gives the ball away after a whole season of it you can't really ignore.

Box to box? From one box of chocolates to the other? 

[FoxyLeon]

It simply comes back to good coaching again. Brighton have just had 3 away games in a row, and they've dominated all 3, with Pascal Gros being a holding midfielder alongside Caicedo, whilst having two slow CBs, usually being Dunk and Webster, also Veltman at RB isn't quick either. There has been times over the past couple of seasons where they have even used Lallana as a deep holding player, this idea that we need a pure holding number 6, like Ndidi of a few years ago, is not accurate. 

 

Tielemans/KDH/Praet/Maddison....There should be games, especially at home, where we capable of coaching at a high enough level to play with two of these four as holding players. There's no reason Maddison is incapable of being coached to play with a similar role to Lallana/Gros, where they essentially play as a secondary holding player, linking play with a number 10.

 

There's no reason, with good coaching, why we can't have lined up with something like this.....(Especially against Bournemouth for example)

 

                        Iversen

 

Ricardo   Soyuncu   Faes   Kristiansen

 

              Tielemans

                                  Maddison

Tete              Iheanacho          Barnes

                         Daka

 

I'm not convinced Maddison's best position is as a number 10, as he would get on the ball more often deeper, and he lacks the legs to press from the front, meaning our press is so often disjointed and KDH when playing deeper has pushed higher and left our shape a real mess. Barnes has never been coached well enough with regards to counter pressing either, and it's why as a team we're possibly the worst in the league at preventing chances against us, and the worst at creating chances ourselves. 

[Richmondfox]

2 hours ago, kiwiturk said:

Putting Cags on defensive midfield position may actually work.

 

We have enough defenders already at least Cags fights, athletic and fast enough to face attacking opposition players before they get into our box also he's got a bit of ball skills as well.

Why not?

 

I agree with your points, I think this could work.  It’s clear what what they currently are doing isn’t working. 

 

The problem we have is Ndidi has been useless for a long time.  When he bothers he is still good at getting a toe poke tackle in but usually he will ghost at the side of the player and let him run and make a pass, like at Crystal Palace.  He also makes the wrong choice around the box, route one boot away from our defence. 

 

On the other side we have Mendy who I do like when he plays positively, he can make cross field progressive passes that send us up the pitch quickly. Unfortunately a lot of the time he will do the hard work then send it back into the defence and put the cbs under pressure.  They end up passing it sideways rather than making space for each other going forwards and Castagne just stands close to the side line and will more than likely send it back where it came from to rinse and repeat till they concede a goal. 
 

KDH stinks out everything he does.  Terrible first touch to put himself under pressure, only one footed and can only run at an angle to the left. 

[The_77]

2 hours ago, jim5000 said:

100%.

 

Its odd that Ndidi, Tielemans, and Maddison was seen as one of the best midfield 3s in the country only 12 months ago, and now it is in the process of being dismantled and Ndidi couldn’t stop an old lady crossing the road.

 

Soumare is a disaster, stealing his living as a professional footballer. Mendy is ok but not enough by himself as a DM, and KDH is a limited box to box midfielder, not a defensive player.

Soumare was one of our best players against Bournemouth and showed he can do well in the CDM role. He had his troubles under Rodgers and might be one of our players who picks up his performances now that we’ve changed managers. 

[Stadt]

Mendy isn't good enough either, he ticks the ball over nicely, looks neat and tidy enough but he doesn't often win the ball.

 

Our only long term midfield options at the moment are KDH, Soumare and Ndidi. We're going to need at  least one player that can play as a 6 and an 8. Santi Comesana and Yacine Adli fit the bill. 

[davieG]

39 minutes ago, The_77 said:

Soumare was one of our best players against Bournemouth for 10 minutes in the 2nd half and showed he can do well in the CDM role. He had his troubles under Rodgers and might be one of our players who picks up his performances now that we’ve changed managers. 

Otherwise he was non-existent as per his usually game.

[sacreblueits442]

3 hours ago, kiwiturk said:

Putting Cags on defensive midfield position may actually work.

 

We have enough defenders already at least Cags fights, athletic and fast enough to face attacking opposition players before they get into our box also he's got a bit of ball skills as well.

Why not?

 

...he may have those qualities but he is impetuous, it is a great discipline that he has gained since coming here, to not dive in!!!

  The mindset is not the same, he has to read the game and more importantly not dive in, but to stay on his feet,  the temptation to win the ball, when it is not there to be won, could make him a liability. 

  As a Centre Back, who can bring the ball forward and is solid in his defensive duties, he perfectly fits what we require.