Notts F & Everton admit to breaking rules and face points deduction

[SouthStandUpperTier]

5 minutes ago, Foxmeister said:

That's £50m a year, well within the limit.

What is the limit? The BBC article says this

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67448714

 

Premier League clubs are permitted to lose £105m over a three-year period and Everton admitted to being in breach of the profit and sustainability rules (PSR) for the period ending 2021-22.

Following a five-day hearing in October, the commission found in favour of the Premier League that Everton's losses during that period amounted to £124.5m.

[Livid]

In any of the past few seasons this would probably see them relegated but they seem to have their act together a little more this time and the fact that it’s not actually put them bottom makes me think they will survive. 

[Fear Of The Fox]

8 minutes ago, nathan. said:

If they lose the appeal would the points deduction stay at 10? 

 

 

It can only go down not up after the appeal decision. This is how all European football authorities operate regarding appeals. If the appeal is unsuccessful they'll go to CAS and final decision (guilty or not guilty) will be made in 3 and a half months, max 4 months. 

[coolhandfox]

2 hours ago, Jobyfox said:

Everton deducted 10 points for breaching FFP rules.
 

Some will be annoyed that they stayed up last season at our expense. Personally, I’m somewhat pragmatic about it given we weren’t exactly innocent when we were promoted in 2014.

 

interesting how Everton get punished though whilst others (cough … Man City … cough) get away with it …. 

Man City case is still on going

 

[jmono84]

I thought it had more to do with their Covid losses and the losses being well over the allowed limit?

[Fear Of The Fox]

 

 

[egg_fried_rice]

Morally, it's the right decision.

 

But the PL have made a rod for their own backs here surely?

 

Fail to deliver a proportionate punishment to Man City and co., they'll be deservedly accused of rank hypocrisy. Then Everton could be the ones doing the suing.

 

Punish those teams proportionately through relegation or title stripping or the like (as they should, based on their own rules), they'll be devaluing their brand and/or encouraging those teams to turn around and stick two fingers up saying "we're off to the super league".

 

Just one of the reasons why the FFP rules are an unworkable joke.

[Fear Of The Fox]

5 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Man City case is still on going

 

Yes it is still going on but these 100+ charges aren't all interconnected. There are charges which can easily be separated and have decisions on them quickly. 

[ramboacdc]

Been confirmed we have applied for compensation:

 

Relegated clubs have applied for compensation

The chair of the commission, David Phillips KC, also referenced applications for financial compensation from current Premier League clubs Burnley and Nottingham Forest and last season's relegated sides, Leicester City, Leeds United and Southampton.

Phillips said he was "satisfied that the applicant clubs have potential claims for compensation" - but noted the commission holds no "inherent jurisdiction" and it is instead "the role of the Premier League to bring and prosecute complaints".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/67447647?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6557715a25a3f53728286219%26Relegated clubs have applied for compensation%262023-11-17T14%3A01%3A10.429Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:f3f33599-93fb-46e6-82bf-22bf9b03c926&pinned_post_asset_id=6557715a25a3f53728286219&pinned_post_type=share

[Fear Of The Fox]

11 minutes ago, egg_fried_rice said:

Morally, it's the right decision.

 

But the PL have made a rod for their own backs here surely?

 

Fail to deliver a proportionate punishment to Man City and co., they'll be deservedly accused of rank hypocrisy. Then Everton could be the ones doing the suing.

 

Punish those teams proportionately through relegation or title stripping or the like (as they should, based on their own rules), they'll be devaluing their brand and/or encouraging those teams to turn around and stick two fingers up saying "we're off to the super league".

 

Just one of the reasons why the FFP rules are an unworkable joke.

As a lawyer myself I'm certain Everton's lawyers will put the pressure on to FA regarding Man City's case (and Chelsea's). They even have the legal grounds to present the argument during the appeal's hearing. 

Just a heads up: European (Spanish, Italian and French) sports journalists are now certain both Man City and Chelsea are getting relegated or at least having a huge amount of points deducted by the end of the season. 

Edited 17 November 2023 by Fear Of The Fox

[cityfanlee23]

2 hours ago, ClaphamFox said:

We came third from bottom. Leeds and Southampton would have still been in the bottom three if Everton were there instead of us. We would have survived. Massive difference.

But how do you know we would have stayed up? 
The only real way to prove it would be to be able to show actual evidence that Everton stayed up as a direct result of the players they signed above the threshold allowed, how do you prove that? 
 

The vast majority of Evertons signings were awful and you could easily argue made them a worse team when you factor in how gutless they were week in week out, the only way to categorically state we would have stayed up would be to be able to pinpoint exactly why the players they signed were the reason they stayed up. I’m not sure that’s possible. 

[Les-TA-Jon]

22 minutes ago, egg_fried_rice said:

Morally, it's the right decision.

 

But the PL have made a rod for their own backs here surely?

 

Fail to deliver a proportionate punishment to Man City and co., they'll be deservedly accused of rank hypocrisy. Then Everton could be the ones doing the suing.

 

Punish those teams proportionately through relegation or title stripping or the like (as they should, based on their own rules), they'll be devaluing their brand and/or encouraging those teams to turn around and stick two fingers up saying "we're off to the super league".

 

Just one of the reasons why the FFP rules are an unworkable joke.

Just one of the reasons why the FFP rules are an unworkable joke.

 

Just one of the reasons why the PL is full of conflicts of interest and we need an independent football regulator

[moore_94]

48 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Considering our last four financial statements show a combined loss of approximately £210m, are we not standing in our glass house throwing stones? How long before other clubs start pointing the finger at us?

No

 

Kieran Maguire who is one the best around at looking into and explaining it all went through it all back in March

 

Covid losses and spend on infrastructure, the academy and other projects gets taken out of the losses

 

https://theathletic.com/4311802/2023/03/16/leicester-city-accounts-explained/

[Vacamion]

 

Everton should be punished by having a hoofball manager appointed, they should be made to play in a craphouse stadium until their new one is finished, their fans should be made to speak with shite phlegm-filled whiney accents and Everton FC should be condemned in perpetuity to be also-rans in their own city.

 

No wait, that already happened.

[Tuna]

37 minutes ago, Livid said:

In any of the past few seasons this would probably see them relegated but they seem to have their act together a little more this time and the fact that it’s not actually put them bottom makes me think they will survive. 

Also the three promoted teams are useless.

[SouthStandUpperTier]

Just now, moore_94 said:

No

 

Kieran Maguire who is one the best around at looking into and explaining it all went through it all back in March

 

Covid losses and spend on infrastructure, the academy and other projects gets taken out of the losses

 

https://theathletic.com/4311802/2023/03/16/leicester-city-accounts-explained/

Thank you for clearing that up for me. Appreciate it.

[moore_94]

The only way I can see Leeds having a case against Everton would be based on final position prize money?

[urban.spaceman]

!!!VINDICATION!!!

 

On 24/06/2023 at 00:17, urban.spaceman said:

I don't want anyone to take this personally but I feel that not enough people quite understand the ways in which we've been held back since we won the league. It's not just about Everton and Man City's antics - to add to the unlevel playing field analogy we've also quite literally had our arms tied behind our back by a system that treats the "big" with deference and everyone else with nothing but contempt, including us fans as consumers.

 

The TV deal for UK consumers is quite literally the worst in the world for non-"top 6" clubs and consumers. It's what sustains the "big" clubs and prevents smaller clubs from ever developing and breaking into the top 7 places on a long term basis.

 

If you are a British consumer and you want to access every single Premier League match, then you have absolutely no legal right or means to do so.

 

In most other countries you can.

 

In the UK you are expected to subscribe to Sky, BT and Amazon and yet you only get access to 52% of the matches. A rough estimate on my part is that this will cost you £775 per annum, although I can only find a minimum 18 month contract with Sky and 24 month contract with BT.

 

I've said this before, but for the last 6 months of our title winning season I was living in Cape Town then spent 2-3 months living in Botswana and travelling around the region. I could either pay for DSTV/Supersport at £360pa and get access to every single Premier League match, or walk in to any pub to get access to it.

 

My dad lives 8 miles away from the King Power and had absolutely absolutely no legal right or means to watch us play on tv.

 

A few weeks ago there was a gang of Brits jailed for decades for providing access to "illegal" streams for UK consumers.

 

Or to put it another way, the Premier League managed to prosecute people for making their product actually accessible to people who wanted to access it. 

 

-------

 

But here's why it's bad for clubs like us.

 

Football has had a Saturday 3pm broadcast blackout since the 60s, which is why UK based consumers can't watch the games. So matches are selected by broadcasters and moved away from the Saturday 3pm slot to get around that rule. Clubs are given "facility fees" - £1.2m per game as it stands - for every match selected for UK broadcast. They have viewers to attract, so the broadcasters pick the clubs they feel will bring in more viewers, which is what tips the eventual earnings in favour of the biggest clubs.

 

To give you an example, in 2014/15, we were selected for broadcast only 8 times.

 

In 2015/16, we were selected for broadcast 15 times (just 12 in 2016/17). Newcastle 16. Everton 18. Spurs 21. Chelsea 22. Liverpool 23. Man Utd 25. Man City 26. Arsenal 27.

 

In total prize money, we were the 5th highest earners with £93m. Spurs £95m, Man Utd £96.3m, Man City £96.8m and Arsenal £100.8m.

 

That right there is evidence of football not being a meritocracy.

 

And that's before you even get to the extra exposure for sponsors which sends their 'earnings' skyrocketing - Man City have certainly been using it as an excuse to inflate their deals, hence the constant investigations.

 

And that's just part of the issue. One of the FFP measures they brought in in 2013 was called Short Term Cost Control (STCC). It was basically, they said, designed to keep clubs spending within their means {directly controlled, see above} and not have wage bills spiralling out of control.

 

Clubs were restricted from increasing wage bills by more than 7% each season.

 

That in itself is designed to protect the bigger clubs IMO.

 

We won the league with a squad that had been promoted 2 seasons earlier and had finished 14th the previous season. So despite being the actual Champions, we were restricted from spending money {that had already been stifled} on players to compete at the top where we found ourselves.

 

We were the reigning Champions but effectively only had the spending power of 14th place club.

 

(Side note - STCC ended in 2019 which is why Newcastle were able to spend £300m in the last year despite circa £30m the previous)

 

-------

 

In summary, you've basically got a company (the Premier League) colluding with participants (the "big" clubs) and restricting access (via broadcasters) in order to restrain competition (the "other 14") and prices for consumers (us).

 

That, my friends, is the dictionary definition of a cartel:

 

cartel

noun

a group of similar independent companies who join together to control prices and limit competition

 

-------

 

Miguel Delaney did a fantastic article in The Independent in early 2020, about a month before lockdown. It begins:

 

“We don’t want too many Leicester Citys.”

These were the words spoken by a senior figure from the Premier League’s ‘big six’ clubs, in the kind of high-end London hotel you can easily imagine.

“Football history suggests fans like big teams winning,” the official continued, to the group of business people and media figures present. “A certain amount of unpredictability is good, but a more democratic league would be bad for business.”

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/champions-league-superclubs-liverpool-man-utd-barcelona-real-madrid-a9330431.html

 

That was about 9 months before Man United and Liverpool tried to bring in Project Big Picture, which involved reducing the teams to 18, giving the 9 clubs with the longest time in the league (but in reality allowing 'any six clubs' and we all know who they are) more voting power on competition issues, and especially distribution of broadcast revenues. citation

 

That was 14 months before they announced the European Super League which as we all know would have bankrupted everyone but themselves.

 

-------

 

We absolutely should not have been allowed to win the Premier League. It shouldn't have happened. They let their guard down expecting that one of the six (well, four; Liverpool hadn't won a title in 25 years and Tottenham are, well, Tottenham). They had controlled the finances and fortunes (in every sense of the word) of the competition for so long that a club ACTUALLY WINNING IT ON MERIT was utterly unthinkable.

 

As far as I'm concerned, with our relegation, they got exactly what they wanted. This is our punishment for humiliating them without buying in.

 

Clubs like Manchester City and Newcastle are so wealthy that they are unaccountable. Man City's CEO is literally on record saying he'd rather spend £50m on lawyers suing UEFA than pay a £30m fine. They refused to cooperate with UEFA for years, were allowed to appoint 2 of the 3 CAS judges who - lo and behold - declared that their rule breaks were "time barred". The Premier League spent 2 years investigating Man City before they were even allowed to report on it. Just look at the trophies they've won in just the 4 years they were being investigated.

 

Football is broken to such a level that only government action will fix it. The problem we have with that is that we don't have a functioning government, and the Shadow Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is a vocal Man City fan who expressed disappointment after the UEFA ban.

 

Football in this country is beyond broken.

 

And it won't get 'fixed'. Because it already is.

 

-------

 

“We don’t want too many Leicester Citys.”

 

 

[Miella27]

2 hours ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

I really hope we don't. 

 

What a fall from grace, going from "the model club" a few years back to suing Everton to pay our staff's wages  

Yeah, I know but it's still a business and if we were to implode this season, an extra £5-10 million could be a lifesaver. We've got to insure ourselves against not going up and the parachute payments drifting away.

[urban.spaceman]

28 minutes ago, ramboacdc said:

Been confirmed we have applied for compensation:

 

Relegated clubs have applied for compensation

The chair of the commission, David Phillips KC, also referenced applications for financial compensation from current Premier League clubs Burnley and Nottingham Forest and last season's relegated sides, Leicester City, Leeds United and Southampton.

Phillips said he was "satisfied that the applicant clubs have potential claims for compensation" - but noted the commission holds no "inherent jurisdiction" and it is instead "the role of the Premier League to bring and prosecute complaints".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/67447647?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6557715a25a3f53728286219%26Relegated clubs have applied for compensation%262023-11-17T14%3A01%3A10.429Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:f3f33599-93fb-46e6-82bf-22bf9b03c926&pinned_post_asset_id=6557715a25a3f53728286219&pinned_post_type=share

FOREST?

[Ric Flair]

2 hours ago, teblin said:

The only issue we have is we didn’t sign anyone really last summer due to ffp. Then subsequently got relegated.

 

We were poor and didn’t deserve to stay up. But if 10 points was last season we’d have stayed up.

We signed handidly kept Everton up in 2021/22 by gifting them 4 points and last season we were safe had we put that peno away.

 

We should sue ourselves.

[Md9]

Makes no difference to Everton now as one win takes them back out of the relegation zone because everyone else around them is shite. Easy win for Everton and the prem. at least if they did it at the start of the season it might have made i interesting and put a bit of pressure on them. 

[egg_fried_rice]

27 minutes ago, Fear Of The Fox said:

As a lawyer myself I'm certain Everton's lawyers will put the pressure on to FA regarding Man City's case (and Chelsea's). They even have the legal grounds to present the argument during the appeal's hearing. 

Just a heads up: European (Spanish, Italian and French) sports journalists are now certain both Man City and Chelsea are getting relegated or at least having a huge amount of points deducted by the end of the season. 

What do you make of our chances of success in our legal action against Everton? It would set a remarkable precedent.

 

If we're in for (a combined) £300m, what will the pot be for those clubs suing Man City if/when they get pinged? Would that not arguably be open to all 19 clubs who finished below them in the league in their title winning years? What about progress in European competitions?

 

Feels like this is a big can of worms and I'm not sure if the FA, PL et al have the mettle for it.

[Buzzard]

43 minutes ago, Fear Of The Fox said:

 

 

God, is this guy still going? 

[Spudulike]

Can we have a merged thread on this please, mods? 

 

All this swapping is making me dizzy.