Xabi Alonso and "managerial experience"

[Koke]

Football is a very strange industry and culture in that experience means very little. Take for example Xabi Alonso who's a rookie and David Moyes who's been managing since 1998. One is vastly superior to the other. You won't see that in any other walk of life. Imagine a junior doctor outperforming a doctor with 25 years experience. Or engineer, University professor, lawyer, judge etc.

 

When you think about its quite embarrassing to be in an industry for so long only to be surpassed so easily by novice.

 

This is also why I still support Enzo and Kompany,  even though they're struggling badly. 

[Mark_w]

3-0 second leg incoming…

[Tuna]

Moyes in 1998 is not Moyes in 2024 though is he

[Koke]

5 minutes ago, Tuna said:

Moyes in 1998 is not Moyes in 2024 though is he

 

He shouldn't be surpassed by a 40 year old who just started coaching. Or Arteta. Or Amorim. 

[foxile5]

8 minutes ago, Koke said:

Football is a very strange industry and culture in that experience means very little. Take for example Xabi Alonso who's a rookie and David Moyes who's been managing since 1998. One is vastly superior to the other. You won't see that in any other walk of life. Imagine a junior doctor outperforming a doctor with 25 years experience. Or engineer, University professor, lawyer, judge etc.

 

When you think about its quite embarrassing to be in an industry for so long only to be surpassed so easily by novice.

 

This is also why I still support Enzo and Kompany,  even though they're struggling badly. 

You do see it in other walks of life - it just isn't as pronounced or commented on.

 

You won't be hearing "trainee teacher makes significant progress whilst 25 year counterpart struggles to control a class" or "fire-fighter does more work in a week than station officer in a year" because that would simply be punching downwards.

 

It's an entertainment business  thing. Timothee Chamalet has more exposure, oscar nominations, pounds in the bank than, say, David Nielson. And Nielson was on the tele before the former was born. Same with singers. The local bands that have been doing the circuits for thirty years are outstripped by a 26 year old Dua Lipa. It's just that it's noticable.

 

 

[glenny_fox]

1 is a middle of the road no thrills, no ambition manager who played as a CB for clubs like Preston.  The other is one of the best CM's of his generation, which undoubtably would have given him a profound amount of tactical experience. 

 

yes Alonso may not have had previous management experience, but lets not pretend that he's just some random guy they picked up at a park, who hasn't spent years training to become a manager.

[Super_horns]

Well if you believe some pundits this is a one off and Alonso’s name will be off the radar of big clubs by next season ..

 

 

[davieG]

2 hours ago, glenny_fox said:

1 is a middle of the road no thrills, no ambition manager who played as a CB for clubs like Preston.  The other is one of the best CM's of his generation, which undoubtably would have given him a profound amount of tactical experience. 

 

yes Alonso may not have had previous management experience, but lets not pretend that he's just some random guy they picked up at a park, who hasn't spent years training to become a manager.

Aye but not many 'great' players have become great managers.

[grobyfox1990]

Not the same job at all though is it. Each club is so different and has so many different challenges.

Also you cannot compare it to a technical job like a doctor. 'Manager' in every industry are not and certainly should not be technically better than the people they manage, that sounds like a complete waste of time and money. The people I 'manage' can do the job better than me.

[spacemunky]

Having a father who was a football player and manager probably has helped Xabi.

[Harboro]

5 minutes ago, spacemunky said:

Having a father who was a football player and manager probably has helped Xabi.

Moyes' father was a scout at Everton so also involved in football, though obviously not the same level as a 3x La Liga winner

[Finnegan]

Experience is gonna be helpful when you run in to difficult situations but it doesn't automatically give you good ideas, especially new ideas, or make you particularly inspiring or good with people or whatever else. Especially given the older you get, let's be honest, the harder it gets to relate to the young people of the day (eg footballers.)

 

There's a lot going for a young manager with fresh motivation, good modern, progressive ideas and who has recently worked with other top managers. 

 

Xabi Alonso, Mikel Arteta and our own Enzo Maresca have all had the opportunity to work up close with literally the best coach and manager on the planet and watch and learn how he works. 

 

We've seen in Enzo what a fresh perspective, new ideas and modern thinking can get you (14pts clear in record time after a record start to the season) but we've also seen what a lack of experience can do when times are hard and things need a bit of a shake up to galvanise a squad (completely surrendering that lead.) 

 

I doubt, say, Tony Mowbray or Neil Warnock would ever in a million years have gotten Leicester playing as well as we did at the start of this season or picking up as many points. 

 

But at the same time, I also think that if Mowbray had been at the club after we bottled it and threw away a winning position at Leeds he'd probably have done a better job stabilising the squad, pressing the reset button and getting everyone confident and motivated to continue and we'd probably be ~8-9 points ahead still by now. 

 

Swings and roundabouts isn't it. 

 

[Vacamion]

 

If it was just about experience, the league would be full of old managers.

 

And we've seen, winning tactics be overtaken by other teams' countermeasures (think Ranieri second season)

 

Frank Lampard was about as well steeped in football upbringing as you can be, was a great player in good teams, and is apparently fairly intelligent as a bloke, yet failed as a manager so far.

 

It's that certain je ne sais quoi - I believe the young uns call it "rizz".  

[Dan LCFC]

Xabi Alonso is pretty exceptional though, I don't think there's shame in being behind him.

[Greg2607]

7 hours ago, Koke said:

Football is a very strange industry and culture in that experience means very little. Take for example Xabi Alonso who's a rookie and David Moyes who's been managing since 1998. One is vastly superior to the other. You won't see that in any other walk of life. Imagine a junior doctor outperforming a doctor with 25 years experience. Or engineer, University professor, lawyer, judge etc.

 

When you think about its quite embarrassing to be in an industry for so long only to be surpassed so easily by novice.

 

This is also why I still support Enzo and Kompany,  even though they're struggling badly. 

Albert Einstein wrote four of his most famous papers whilst working as a Patent Officer in Switzerland and doing Physics in his "Spare Time".... at the time he couldn't even get a job as a physics teacher.

Edited 16 April by Greg2607

[Detroit Blues]

8 hours ago, Koke said:

Football is a very strange industry and culture in that experience means very little. Take for example Xabi Alonso who's a rookie and David Moyes who's been managing since 1998. One is vastly superior to the other. You won't see that in any other walk of life. Imagine a junior doctor outperforming a doctor with 25 years experience. Or engineer, University professor, lawyer, judge etc.

 

When you think about its quite embarrassing to be in an industry for so long only to be surpassed so easily by novice.

 

This is also why I still support Enzo and Kompany,  even though they're struggling badly. 

I think being younger also has some advantages. Xabi Alonso was quite recently a player, and can relate to what players of this generation encounter. He understands the tactics from a player's point of view, and can likely articulate them in ways players can better understand. He might lack the experience of a David Moyes, but he has other advantages to make up for it.

 

I think one thing we can understand given the season we've gone through, is how quickly the game evolves. Maresca's system under Pep might have been the "best" tactical system in 2022-2023, but since then even Pep has needed to evolve his game. The longer your managerial career lasts, the more evolutions you will need to make. Time will tell if Xabi Alonso is really a great manager who can change with the times, or if he was just the right manager at the right time (like Ranieri for Leicester). 

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Why single out moyes, Alonso has done more in 1 year than 99+% of managers do in a lifetime. Don’t really see the point of the comparison. Alonso will never do what pep has done so he’s bound to end up shit as well? Pep won’t do what Ferguson has done so pep is crap.

[Stadt]

Experience and ability have a weak positive correlation.

 

The OP is essentially saying that people improve linearly at things - managers peak at different times. The good managers are almost always good straight away, they don't take years and years to develop.

 

Guardiola, Ancelotti, Mourinho, Ferguson were all near or were instant successes. 

[oxford blue]

On 16/04/2024 at 09:44, Koke said:

 

This is also why I still support Enzo and Kompany,  even though they're struggling badly. 

A good manager needs the ability to make changes in a timely fashion during the game.  Both these managers had a fixed way of playing: it has taken the realities of PL for Kompany to adapt to PL and make changes to style. Maresca usually has no planB' and if he does, employs it too late to have an effect. (Same could be said for Southgate too.)

 

It will be interesting to see how Pompey do nest season; John Mousinho taking over mid season 22/23 and hardly doing anything wrong since. Rob Edwards in his career to date has been remarkable; Watford must regret decision to sack him when in top half of table.