Next England Manager?

[STEVIE B]

It's funny, some moaning about Tuchel's appointment on the grounds of him being German, would probably have accepted Klopp or Pep. 

Bless the little Englanders. 

[Bilo]

Just now, STEVIE B said:

It's funny, some moaning about Tuchel's appointment on the grounds of him being German, would probably have accepted Klopp or Pep. 

Bless the little Englanders. 

It makes me laugh to see how weak the arguments are, it really does. 

[Leicesterpool]

To be fair Sven when through the same, when he was appointed wasn't until we hammered Germany 5-1 when suddenly he went from zero to hero. 

[foxfanazer]

Great appointment. No complaints whatsoever. Better than the English P.E teachers they usually go for

[Lionator]

My take is that Southgate was a really good England manager in the sense that he developed an identity and narrative that helped people to feel part of something come major tournaments. Now, he was a dreadful tactician hence why we blew the chance of winning things, but his main achievement will be the guy that revived the England national team.

 

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that an English manager could continue that. We had Hodgson and McLaren for example who were dreadful and fans were incredibly disengaged. In fact the only other recent manager to cultivate an identity for the team was Sven, and he was a Jonny Foreigner.

 

Tuchel is clearly a step up on the coaching side of things. Whether he can get the weird unmeasurable momentum thing that Southgate developed will be another thing. If he can then we stand a very good chance of winning things. If that dies off then it’s a problem for him. 
 

As for people like Farage saying he liked Southgate and doesn’t want a foreign manager, he’s an idiot because he spent hours upon hours criticising him over the Black Lives Matter stance. 

[Dan]

13 hours ago, Bilo said:

International football requires a skillset that might suit him well. Pragmatism, motivating players for one-off games and working with what you have.

 

Pep is the best manager in the world, but he strikes me as the kind of manager who needs day in day out with his squad to make it work as well as building his own team. With the best will in the world, he'd have neither in international football. It's not as if he could fly to Oslo and walk into the Norwegian FA's offices with a £100m cheque for Erling Haaland. 

 

Tuchel, by contrast, took over a Chelsea side that was in chaos before and has been worse since and won a Champions League with them. In terms of making do with what he had, he made an aging Jorginho look world class and won the biggest prize in world club football with Ben Chilwell at left-back. 

 

The only mark against in him in his career so far is his time at Bayern, but even then that Leverkusen side was an absolute freak of nature from front to back while Bayern were in decline.

In a weird way I think Tuchel's a better fit for it than Pep is.

 

I've been way too positive about this appointment for him not to flop is my only fear  

[Dan]

10 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

Would Germany appoint a English manager, not a chance.

 

Total failure by the FA and football governing bodies to create a pathway for English coaches.

 

Horrific miss management. 

We'll never know - they haven't been put in a position where their best manager is Eddie Howe while there are numerous top English managers about.

 

It is quite mad how incapable England are of producing top managers. No English top flight winner since 1992. No European Cup win since 1982.

[Craig]

31 minutes ago, Lionator said:

My take is that Southgate was a really good England manager in the sense that he developed an identity and narrative that helped people to feel part of something come major tournaments. Now, he was a dreadful tactician hence why we blew the chance of winning things, but his main achievement will be the guy that revived the England national team.

 

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that an English manager could continue that. We had Hodgson and McLaren for example who were dreadful and fans were incredibly disengaged. In fact the only other recent manager to cultivate an identity for the team was Sven, and he was a Jonny Foreigner.

 

Tuchel is clearly a step up on the coaching side of things. Whether he can get the weird unmeasurable momentum thing that Southgate developed will be another thing. If he can then we stand a very good chance of winning things. If that dies off then it’s a problem for him. 
 

As for people like Farage saying he liked Southgate and doesn’t want a foreign manager, he’s an idiot because he spent hours upon hours criticising him over the Black Lives Matter stance. 

Also add in that Chelsea fans adore the man and had no problem in engaging with his side. We also have Kane who scored more than a goal a game under him at Bayern - maybe we won't see him playing so deep for England. 

He wouldn't have been my first pick, but I'm pretty excited by this now.

 

Worst case scenario with this 18 month deal is that we're back where we are now after USA, but before a home Euros with a very talented squad - still a very attractive proposition for any manager. 

[Super_horns]

3 hours ago, STEVIE B said:

It's funny, some moaning about Tuchel's appointment on the grounds of him being German, would probably have accepted Klopp or Pep. 

Bless the little Englanders. 

Definitely.

 

Pep would have been fine apparently.

 

Great coach yes but wouldn’t be the same as managing a club with millions to spend and allowed to do what they like .

 

Apparently 10 potential managers applied or were spoken to according to Sky .

Guess the FA felt Tuchel was the best option of those available which is fair enough.

Edited 16 October 2024 by Super_horns

[Plastik Man]

The question remains why there are so few decent English managers? 

 

Culture must be part of it. Are the right skills and attributes values?

 

A reluctance to play or coach abroad and widen their experience and horizons?

 

Appointing the wrong English managers - only big names, Gerard, Lampard, etc - in jobs, and promoting them before they have gained enough knowledge or experience?

 

Modern football tactics are very technical, requiring intellect. Look at Maresca's interest in chess and the analogies he draws.  I fear the equivalent English coach would prefer dominoes! 😬

[Filberts lovechild]

Not been a fan of Tuchel since he was so salty at the end of our FA cup final and subsequent Premier League game a few days later. His failure with England will only prolong this reasonably long held distain of him

[Bilo]

20 minutes ago, Plastik Man said:

The question remains why there are so few decent English managers? 

 

Culture must be part of it. Are the right skills and attributes values?

 

A reluctance to play or coach abroad and widen their experience and horizons?

 

Appointing the wrong English managers - only big names, Gerard, Lampard, etc - in jobs, and promoting them before they have gained enough knowledge or experience?

 

Modern football tactics are very technical, requiring intellect. Look at Maresca's interest in chess and the analogies he draws.  I fear the equivalent English coach would prefer dominoes! 😬

I think you've touched on it.

 

We have an obsession in England that coaches should have played at the highest level before they can be accepted. The players you've cited were serious competitors on the pitch, but it just hasn't happened for them on the touchline.

 

When you look in Europe, there's a whole host of managers who never played at the top level but are extremely successful coaches. Tuchel himself retired at 25 after only playing for two lower league German sides while some like Nagelsmann barely played at all. It's difficult to imagine a top Premier League club taking a chance on a manager who only played 74 matches for Forest Green Rovers and Gateshead, or who started doing his coaching badged after quitting professional football in his early twenties, however good he was.

 

Honestly, we need to start looking at managers who became managers young. Invest in coaching courses for players who, for whatever reason, don't make it as footballers but still have a love for the game. There could be plenty of potential Tuchels and Nagelsmanns in English football who are slipping through the net because of English football's obsession with the idea that top players become top coaches. By the time they retire and start studying for their coaching badges, they're up to a decade behind European coaches who had a UEFA Pro Licence in their late twenties. Perhaps even recruit those who have never actually played but have a real intellect and insight for the game. 

Edited 16 October 2024 by Bilo

[Vacamion]

 

I was amused by the fact the Die Welt's tweet about the appointment used a picture of Tuchel that screams "Oh shit, what have I DONE!"  

 

[CosbehFox]

8 hours ago, Bilo said:

I think you've touched on it.

 

We have an obsession in England that coaches should have played at the highest level before they can be accepted. The players you've cited were serious competitors on the pitch, but it just hasn't happened for them on the touchline.

 

When you look in Europe, there's a whole host of managers who never played at the top level but are extremely successful coaches. Tuchel himself retired at 25 after only playing for two lower league German sides while some like Nagelsmann barely played at all. It's difficult to imagine a top Premier League club taking a chance on a manager who only played 74 matches for Forest Green Rovers and Gateshead, or who started doing his coaching badged after quitting professional football in his early twenties, however good he was.

 

Honestly, we need to start looking at managers who became managers young. Invest in coaching courses for players who, for whatever reason, don't make it as footballers but still have a love for the game. There could be plenty of potential Tuchels and Nagelsmanns in English football who are slipping through the net because of English football's obsession with the idea that top players become top coaches. By the time they retire and start studying for their coaching badges, they're up to a decade behind European coaches who had a UEFA Pro Licence in their late twenties. Perhaps even recruit those who have never actually played but have a real intellect and insight for the game. 

It’s worth mentioning the costs of those coaching badges too. Taking them via the English FA is five times more expensive than in Spain or Germany. 

Edited 17 October 2024 by CosbehFox

[Bilo]

35 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

It’s worth mentioning the costs of those checking badges too. Taking them via the English FA is five times more expensive than in Spain or Germany. 

Exactly. It means that only people with plenty of money from, say, a long playing career or those from wealthy backgrounds can get into elite coaching. Combine that with the weird attitude that I described and you can see why we have a shortage of good coaches in this country.

[Super_horns]

Maybe some just don't see a pathway through and don't bother either.

 

The demand for results form clubs and fans is greater than in most places I suspect here so people will always try an experienced or tested manager even in a lower league unless they are skint like us.

[Bilo]

10 minutes ago, Super_horns said:

Maybe some just don't see a pathway through and don't bother either.

 

The demand for results form clubs and fans is greater than in most places I suspect here so people will always try an experienced or tested manager even in a lower league unless they are skint like us.

There needs to be a better culture. Academies are brutal in terms of the way they treat players who don't make it. To me, players who show a tactical acumen or football intelligence but don't 'make it' should be offered alternative roles within the club that releases them rather than having to say goodbye to the game in their late teens.

[Koke]

People still dislike/hate Germans? I thought English people had moved on from that.

[Koke]

However I do see the merit in having an English manager. Always thought it was odd that in international football players  obviously can only represent the nation they're citizens of but somehow anyone can manage anyone irrespective of nationality.

 

Edited 17 October 2024 by Koke

[foxes_rule1978]

1 hour ago, Koke said:

However I do see the merit in having an English manager. Always thought it was odd that in international football players  obviously can only represent the nation they're citizens of but somehow anyone can manage anyone irrespective of nationality.

 

It would be preferable that is for sure, it is somewhat embarrassing that a top nation like ours can’t bring through the quality of coach required. I have no issue with taking that on the chin and appointing a top foreign manager to get us the results we want though, I can understand if someone like a Ramsey or Clough was available and we went foreign but they just aren’t so I don’t see the issue. 

[sm1]

Tuchel is probably the best choice, considering he's managed in England and knows the players. Beyond that I think we put too much onus on club career to be honest. Fabio Capello is one of the most decorated club managers, but his England team was dire. Compare him to Southgate, whose only noteworthy achievement at club level was a relegation, yet England definitely advanced under him. Also take the Spanish coach, he managed for 25yrs at club level winning nothing, and then proceeded to win the Euros.

[ARTY_FOX]

There isn't any English managers going that are good enough imo. 

Edited 17 October 2024 by ARTY_FOX

[SystonFox]

17 minutes ago, ARTY_FOX said:

There isn't any English managers going that are good enough imo. 

Steve Cooper???

[foxes_rule1978]

30 minutes ago, sm1 said:

Tuchel is probably the best choice, considering he's managed in England and knows the players. Beyond that I think we put too much onus on club career to be honest. Fabio Capello is one of the most decorated club managers, but his England team was dire. Compare him to Southgate, whose only noteworthy achievement at club level was a relegation, yet England definitely advanced under him. Also take the Spanish coach, he managed for 25yrs at club level winning nothing, and then proceeded to win the Euros.

Capello, both didn’t speak English or manage in the PL. At least Tuchel has both of those important aspects 

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

Best part of AFCON is there are always about 3 or 4 French or Belgian coaches who look like mad scientists from Resident Evil or something. If we only made it so you could manage the country you're from we'd lose that, not for me Clive