Royston. Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 gray was a hot prospect when we signed him. why would we agree to such a pitiful release clause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 4 minutes ago, turtmcfly said: Obviously you knew that the Premier League would go so mental that within 15 months that an almost four-fold increase in the value of a bit-part player could be seen to be 'terrible business'. Yeah who could have seen a huge increase in transfer fees... It's not like the new deal had been known about for years and everyone was creaming themselves about all the extra money. It was entirely predictable to anyone who bothers to keep track of these sorts of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtmcfly Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 4 minutes ago, Babylon said: You've just answered your own question. Eh? In what way did I answer my own question? How can you 'dictate' to the club if the club has the option to walk away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 3 minutes ago, NotTheMarketLeader said: Gray has been tearing it up over the last 12 months with the England U21 squad, including MOTM performances. Your last paragraph is well wide of the mark; there will be plenty who would want one if England's top young attacking talents. Schlupp went for £12m he had proven himself to be shit; there is no way that the market value of Gray is the same as that donkey given his ability and age. £12m is a fair amount for where he is in his career now, but it's not a fair amount for where he could be in a year or two. That's my issue. Gray is comparable to say Redmond who signed for saints for £10m in the summer, he's had a good season and now you'd probably have to start bidding at around £20m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 1 minute ago, turtmcfly said: Eh? In what way did I answer my own question? How can you 'dictate' to the club if the club has the option to walk away? It's quite simple, they say I want a release clause or we walk away and don't sign. That's dictating the terms of the deal... whether the club signs it is something else entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtmcfly Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 4 minutes ago, Babylon said: Yeah who could have seen a huge increase in transfer fees... It's not like the new deal had been known about for years and everyone was creaming themselves about all the extra money. It was entirely predictable to anyone who bothers to keep track of these sorts of things. Yes. And a four-fold increase in a bit part player within 15 months, to me at least, seems like a huge increase. Since you obviously do keep track of these (elementally simple) things, can you tell me what Gray's transfer value will be at the back end of 2018? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 1 minute ago, turtmcfly said: Yes. And a four-fold increase in a bit part player within 15 months, to me at least, seems like a huge increase. Considering he was bought at a reduced price because of his Birmingham release clause, it's not really that good a deal is it. It's also certainly not a good deal if he goes on to perform for his new club and becomes worth 3 or 4 times the price we got. If Everton put a 4 x release clause in John Stones contract when he signed from Barnsley for £2m, do you think they'd done well do get 4 x their investment... or would they be kicking themselves for missing out on £42m? Or Spurs with Bale and Ali, Saints with virtually all the players they sell on? 1 minute ago, turtmcfly said: Since you obviously do keep track of these (elementally simple) things, can you tell me what Gray's transfer value will be at the back end of 2018? Well the current deal runs until 2019, so there won't be another huge jump in the whole market until them on the scale we've seen. His individual price will now be dictated by how he performs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotTheMarketLeader Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 1 hour ago, turtmcfly said: Obviously you knew that the Premier League would go so mental that within 15 months that an almost four-fold increase in the value of a bit-part player could be seen to be 'terrible business'. Naturally, you would have refused to sign Gray if his representatives had stuck firm to their demands for a 12 million quid release clause. Kitchandro - Mystic Meg or Bobby Hindsight? It's not hindsight it's the forsight that's been lacking at the club with these issues. 1. We paid well below is true market value as his contract at BC was running down, so this 3 to 4 fold argument you write about, to come to the £12m release clause doesn't add up to that. His true fee should have been in excess of £7m based on his U21 exploits, his age and potential. 2. We were buying a player in Gray who is rated very highly who has the potential to be a future England regular. (If the hierarchy did not believe that I don't think they would have signed him). On that basis, simple comprehension of basic value of players of this type should lead to a figure of £20m minimum at that time. 3. This is a protective measure for the club based on what his value COULD be should everything work out and the player reaches his full potential. It should be a compensation figure the based on that premise. £12m was way, way to low taking all this into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 1 hour ago, Babylon said: The point is... why the fook is a kid from Birmingham in any position to be inserting a clause into his contract in the first place. Huge wage rise, bigger shop window and coming to a team top of the league. We shouldn't be needing to insert any kind of clause (unless it's a relegation one), especially a £12m one when people seemed to think we'd got a bit of a bargain anyway when he signed. Letting young talent dictate release clauses is suicidal, doesn't matter if it's 3 or 4 times what you paid. Because if they do proves themselves, you'll be getting a fraction of the true value. Any release clause should only be inserted with the following in mind. The fee is reflective of what they would be worth if they proved themselves and became the top talent we thought them capable of being, hence us trying to sign them. Exactly this. When two parties negotiate on something then more times than not one of those parties hold the whip hand. How on earth have we let a teenager from a Championship club dictate such a small release clause. I know it's 300/400% higher than his transfer fee but at the time we assumed we were signing a £10m player and only got him that cheap because of his release clause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Flair Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 It's fairly obvious what's gone on here. We got Gray for a bargain price due to a release clause in the first place. There was initial ' mulling ' over the deal by Gray and his representatives and supposed other clubs interested, so it's clear they demanded another release clause which we must have eventually agreed to. It's low but as we got him for such a bargain, perhaps it was what we were forced in to doing so. Worst case scenario for the club is an £8 million profit which would be frustrating but can see why they took the plunge. Hopefully he signs an improved contract and this won't become a problem. We might have to start playing him again though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtmcfly Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 12 minutes ago, Babylon said: If Everton put a 4 x release clause in John Stones contract when he signed from Barnsley for £2m, do you think they'd done well do get 4 x their investment... or would they be kicking themselves for missing out on £42m? I think I'm just smart enough to understand that in hindsight 12 million wasn't enough for Gray. What I'm not smart enough to understand is why the 'new deal' which according to you inevitably led to Gray being worth around seven times what he signed for hasn't led to Kramaric being valued at 60 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clever Fox Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 11 hours ago, Dan LCFC said: If Gray is on under £20k a week I will be amazed. I reckon probably nearer £30-35k. Absolutely not a chance is it £10k or under. I doubt very much he's on anything like 20k. kante was only on 30k. Kasper 40k and they were both Internationals at the time. I know another International player at another Club who has just signed a five year Contract for 20k a week. As I've also said Rashford is onlly on 12.5k at Utd and he's done really well over the past two seasons. He's reported to be negotiating a new Contract for around 25k. Just because Gray or any young player has a few decent games doesn't mean their entitled to a new deal after every good game. When he signed his deal it was the best offer he could get at the time. While he is looking promising he still has a way to go to make a player. Personally I think Redmond is a better player and would have liked us to sign him. As I new he too was undervalued when Norwich let him go. But that's Football, You never win them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filbertway Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 13 minutes ago, turtmcfly said: I think I'm just smart enough to understand that in hindsight 12 million wasn't enough for Gray. What I'm not smart enough to understand is why the 'new deal' which according to you inevitably led to Gray being worth around seven times what he signed for hasn't led to Kramaric being valued at 60 million. You can't work out why a young English winger with the potential to play for the national team could be worth £20-25 million? Then a Croatian striker who's got a decent pedigree and is in the national team but isn't proven at the very top level isn't worth £60 million? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannythefox Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 1 hour ago, Royston. said: gray was a hot prospect when we signed him. why would we agree to such a pitiful release clause? Agents sort it out, I don't think he'd be bothered if it was 12 or 25m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc_star Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 On 2017-3-26 at 00:25, Steve_Walsh5 said: Where's all this "mahrez will be off in the summer" talk come from? He's not had a good season one or two good games that's about it. If anything he looks like a one season wonder. His stock isn't as high as it was last season and he didn't really attract much interest then. Mahrez - One season wonder? He just might be our best ever player, there's a reason he's linked with Barca not just the usual Everton, West Ham, Southampton Hazard in the last 3 PL seasons : 29 goals 16 assists Mahrez in the last 3 PL seasons :26 goals 16 assists And this doesn't mention Mahrez's recent incredible ball-recovery ability, the defensive side of his game since Ranieri went has been right up there with anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtmcfly Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 36 minutes ago, filbertway said: You can't work out why a young English winger with the potential to play for the national team could be worth £20-25 million? Then a Croatian striker who's got a decent pedigree and is in the national team but isn't proven at the very top level isn't worth £60 million? You can't work out I was being ironic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 1 hour ago, turtmcfly said: I think I'm just smart enough to understand that in hindsight 12 million wasn't enough for Gray. What I'm not smart enough to understand is why the 'new deal' which according to you inevitably led to Gray being worth around seven times what he signed for hasn't led to Kramaric being valued at 60 million. Because one proved themselves to be a total failure and we were shown to have over paid. Meaning he wasn't wanted by another premier league club, the ones who have just had their money booted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 Tanner says this thread is a waste of effort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan LCFC Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 1 hour ago, Clever Fox said: I doubt very much he's on anything like 20k. kante was only on 30k. Kasper 40k and they were both Internationals at the time. I know another International player at another Club who has just signed a five year Contract for 20k a week. As I've also said Rashford is onlly on 12.5k at Utd and he's done really well over the past two seasons. He's reported to be negotiating a new Contract for around 25k. Just because Gray or any young player has a few decent games doesn't mean their entitled to a new deal after every good game. When he signed his deal it was the best offer he could get at the time. While he is looking promising he still has a way to go to make a player. Personally I think Redmond is a better player and would have liked us to sign him. As I new he too was undervalued when Norwich let him go. But that's Football, You never win them all. Kante wasn't an international when we signed him. Strangely your two arguments only make me think Gray is more likely to be on what I said. It doesn't entitle him to a new deal every time he has a good game but he joined us when we were top of the league. He isn't going to be on Championship level wages. £20k absolute minimum I'd guess. If we really do only have a £12mil release clause in his contract then it shows yet again what awful negotiators we are. There is not a single club in the league minus possibly Hull (and we all agree they're a joke off the pitch) that would only get £12mil for Gray in this market. Southampton would pocket double. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan LCFC Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 1 minute ago, Matt said: I hope this is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 Plenty of players at Spanish and Portuguese clubs have players on €50m release fees and are worth about €5-10m. Look at Silva who we tried to sign from Sporting and IIRC had just signed a 4 year £17k a week contract but had a £40m release fee, those two figures don't add up. I guess it's all part of the negotiating, we might have signed Gray on £12k a week and he wants a release fee of £12m to sign that. If we offered £20k a week then he'd be happy not to have a release fee. Perhaps we like to pay lesser wages and offer more incentives on lower clauses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue army 1988 Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 I am surprised some people on here would think that Gray having a clause would be true. Don't believe everything that you read in a newspaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 23 minutes ago, st albans fox said: Tanner says this thread is a waste of effort We've still had two wanky buy out clauses, so most of the points still stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 27 March 2017 Share Posted 27 March 2017 1 minute ago, blue army 1988 said: I am surprised some people on here would think that Gray having a clause would be true. Don't believe everything that you read in a newspaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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