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FoxinNotts

Sagna

By FoxinNotts, in Transfer Talk

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

No thanks, thought we had gone past this sort of signing. Would rather seek out a decent youngster in Jan.

 

Just take a look at Zabaleta at West Ham.

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The Doctor

The Doctor

Posted
Posted
44 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

Oh great. One example.

 

For every good there's bad.

 

Cambiasso, Ferdinand great. Curtis, Howey not great.

Sort of but we do seem to do quite well out of this sort of deal: Cottee, Ferdinand, Cambiasso, Berner, Solano, Phillips... All came in at the end of their careers and made a good contribution. Compared to what? Curtis, Howey and Clapham. 

 

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inckley fox

inckley fox

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, MattP said:

No thanks, thought we had gone past this sort of signing. Would rather seek out a decent youngster in Jan.

 

Just take a look at Zabaleta at West Ham.

It smacks of West Ham and a whole host of other mid-table sides who prefer to go for the veteran merry-go-round rather than do their scouting properly, and early in the window. Under Adams we went down because of over-reliance on this type of player. Bearing in mind our squad is the 5th oldest in the PL and will inevitably need major surgery year-on-year unless we invest in youth as a matter of policy, this is exactly the sort of thing we shouldn't be engaging in. 

 

I tend to take the club line when people say we should look at Gray / Barnes / Chilwell / Moore / Knight etc. in that players have to earn their chance, rather than us take a risk on them. But when you make this kind of move, if that's what we're doing, for a very costly and experienced veteran (into a squad which already has plenty of experience) who at his best was overrated and whose form predictably fell away when the pace he depended on fell away, then you have to wonder whether people are thinking long-term.

 

When we overlooked the right back slot in our summer recruitment, I assumed it was because the coaching staff had seen progress in Amartey's adaptation to the role which, seeing as there's a decent player in there somewhere (albeit one who is too risky to play at CB or CM), I saw as positive. Either that or they felt Johnson / Knight could step in and do a job (the latter's cameo vs. Sheffield Utd made me wonder). Either way, it pointed towards us allowing players to grow into roles and earn a place, rather than lurching for an unsuitable newbie. 

 

But if they were to sign Sagna, then I'd have to guess that, no, they never intended to do any such thing and simply didn't get round to identifying a new right back.

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Ric Flair

Ric Flair

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

It smacks of West Ham and a whole host of other mid-table sides who prefer to go for the veteran merry-go-round rather than do their scouting properly, and early in the window. Under Adams we went down because of over-reliance on this type of player. Bearing in mind our squad is the 5th oldest in the PL and will inevitably need major surgery year-on-year unless we invest in youth as a matter of policy, this is exactly the sort of thing we shouldn't be engaging in. 

 

I tend to take the club line when people say we should look at Gray / Barnes / Chilwell / Moore / Knight etc. in that players have to earn their chance, rather than us take a risk on them. But when you make this kind of move, if that's what we're doing, for a very costly and experienced veteran (into a squad which already has plenty of experience) who at his best was overrated and whose form predictably fell away when the pace he depended on fell away, then you have to wonder whether people are thinking long-term.

 

When we overlooked the right back slot in our summer recruitment, I assumed it was because the coaching staff had seen progress in Amartey's adaptation to the role which, seeing as there's a decent player in there somewhere (albeit one who is too risky to play at CB or CM), I saw as positive. Either that or they felt Johnson / Knight could step in and do a job (the latter's cameo vs. Sheffield Utd made me wonder). Either way, it pointed towards us allowing players to grow into roles and earn a place, rather than lurching for an unsuitable newbie. 

 

But if they were to sign Sagna, then I'd have to guess that, no, they never intended to do any such thing and simply didn't get round to identifying a new right back.

Pearson regularly signed out of contract veteran players after the deadline had passed and nearly every single one of them did a job for us. I'm not saying it's a great way to do things but it can work out.

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inckley fox

inckley fox

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Sort of but we do seem to do quite well out of this sort of deal: Cottee, Ferdinand, Cambiasso, Berner, Solano, Phillips... All came in at the end of their careers and made a good contribution. Compared to what? Curtis, Howey and Clapham. 

 

In three of those cases they were players who'd played at a much higher level, coming into a side in the second or even third tier. You could add Powell to that list. This sort of signing in the PL tends to be more effective for sides who intend to scrape survival, and need know-how where there's inexperience (see Cambiasso) or simply semi-competent options because they can't afford, or don't have the scouting networks to identify longer-term options (Cottee, McKinlay, Ferdinand).

 

I'm skeptical. Look at Bassett's team-building, or Adams': when we injected 32+ year olds into already experienced top flight sides: Laursen and Deane under Bassett. Nalis, Howey, Scimeca, Hignett, Dabizas etc. under Adams. Yes, there was Ferdinand, but remember we still got relegated. It hardly worked out swimmingly for either party. If you want to extend the analysis into the second tier, you'll still find more misses than hits: Blake, Keown, Pressman, Makin, Gemmill, Dublin, Wilcox and so on. 

 

Sidelining a 22 year-old (in Amartey) and a bunch of teenagers (Johnson and Knight) is fine, if they're not good enough or not ready, but when the current incumbent in the right back role is 30, and your squad is one of the oldest in the division, you should really be looking at opportunities to nurture a replacement. It depends whether our long-term strategy is to have a veteran line-up that needs major surgery year-in year-out, or a squad through which youth can graduate, and which evolves over time.

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inckley fox

inckley fox

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Pearson regularly signed out of contract veteran players after the deadline had passed and nearly every single one of them did a job for us. I'm not saying it's a great way to do things but it can work out.

Of course you're right, but when he did it in our promotion season there were two key differences: (1) We had the youngest line-up in that division on several occasions the previous season, and our inexperience had severely cost us. Now we have one of the oldest line-ups in the division. (2) The guys we were bringing in had a level of pedigree that our existing players aspired to. Promotion experience in Fletcher, a long-lasting international and CL-level career in Wasilewski, and of course Phillips.

 

Before that it had been a similar story with Solano, who was passably good, and Berner who was another player who had played at a much higher level than where we were at the time. You could say the same for Powell. But clearly that's not the case with Sagna.

 

Likewise when we went up, you had Cambiasso who had literally been one of the best CMs on the planet coming into a side with very little top flight know-how, and at 33 he still had another season at a good level. It didn't work out quite so famously with Upson, of course.

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Sublime_Coatsworth

Sublime_Coatsworth

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Viva said:

It's certainly not as clear cut as you make out. Would you have snapped up Mathieu Flamini last season? Similar type of player. Didn't exactly pull up trees at Palace. If we had given him a two year contract for example it would have been throwing money down the toilet. Sagna is 34, which is getting on for a right back. He used to be a quality player, but that doesn't guarantee he still is. I wouldn't be against a one year deal, but any more and no chance.  

I'd say it is pretty clear cut - since it seem we either go for him, or else we have no real cover at right-back.

 

The points you made are valid, but they were already in my pro/con list. Yes he's 34, but the reality is there's no guarantee for any player. But 26 appearances for Man City last year suggests he still a quality player

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Ric Flair

Ric Flair

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14 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

Of course you're right, but when he did it in our promotion season there were two key differences: (1) We had the youngest line-up in that division on several occasions the previous season, and our inexperience had severely cost us. Now we have one of the oldest line-ups in the division. (2) The guys we were bringing in had a level of pedigree that our existing players aspired to. Promotion experience in Fletcher, a long-lasting international and CL-level career in Wasilewski, and of course Phillips.

 

Before that it had been a similar story with Solano, who was passably good, and Berner who was another player who had played at a much higher level than where we were at the time. You could say the same for Powell. But clearly that's not the case with Sagna.

 

Likewise when we went up, you had Cambiasso who had literally been one of the best CMs on the planet coming into a side with very little top flight know-how, and at 33 he still had another season at a good level. It didn't work out quite so famously with Upson, of course.

I think if he signs, it's the sort of signing that won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things. It's not like we have nobody at right back and without one we're in danger of struggling this season. However, if he comes in and fits in to the way we play and gets in ahead of Simpson then happy days, if not he'll probably leave in the summer having earnt a few million and we'll have forgotten him.

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Viva

Viva

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Sublime_Coatsworth said:

I'd say it is pretty clear cut - since it seem we either go for him, or else we have no real cover at right-back.

 

The points you made are valid, but they were already in my pro/con list. Yes he's 34, but the reality is there's no guarantee for any player. But 26 appearances for Man City last year suggests he still a quality player

A quick look at the Man City forum and they where delighted when his contract was up.

 

http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/threads/bacary-sagna-2016-17-performances.324757/page-20

 

Likely to be too past it for what we need.

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ScouseFox

ScouseFox

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, MattP said:

No thanks, thought we had gone past this sort of signing. Would rather seek out a decent youngster in Jan.

 

Just take a look at Zabaleta at West Ham.

this has gotta be a new FT allow, judging a potential new signing on a different player who's played like twice for a different club. 

 

what the hell does zabaleta giving away a penalty for west ham have to do with us filling out our squad with an experienced pro for free? 

 

deary me. 

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ScouseFox

ScouseFox

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Posted
14 hours ago, Miquel The Work Geordie said:

Astounded we've reached page 2 and nobody has posted any photos of ludivine yet, by far the best WAG there is

this is a family football forum pal, we're not all dirty perverts 

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Sublime_Coatsworth

Sublime_Coatsworth

Posted
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50 minutes ago, Viva said:

A quick look at the Man City forum and they where delighted when his contract was up.

 

http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/threads/bacary-sagna-2016-17-performances.324757/page-20

 

Likely to be too past it for what we need.

Yep, after a bad game he gets a lot of slagging off, whereas after a good game they love him - who'd a thought!

 

http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/threads/bacary-sagna-2016-17-performances.324757/page-14

 

 

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