defence of Puel by John Collins

[Bagworthblue]

As a coach myself, I really wish people would just relax a bit and think bigger picture and longer term. 

 

The reality is that there 7 or 8 clubs in the Prem with a higher revenue than us and with a greater 100+ year history than us. 

 

We've been a yoyo club for 130 years and this is one if the longest periods of stability we've had in the top division, certainly in recent times. 

 

FFP prevents us from competing with 6-8 of these clubs on an equal footing as does our history when it comes to attracting the best players.

 

Puel in tandem with the club hierarchy is working to a strategy of buying young up and coming players and players that are "Not quite ready" to develop as a means to compete. We are morphing from a very singular style of play that gave us the title but which was not sustainable to a more fluid and interchangeable set of systems which take time to embed. By " time" I mean a season or 2. During this period we are embedding youth and accepting that youth brings inconsistency. It also requires a lot of close management to ensure they develop the right Pschological attributes, dont burn out or lose their heads meaning they need resting, time outs etc moreso than experienced players.  At the same time we have older players that i am sure are trying to adapt but it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks when their play style has been mentally embedded for many years. 

 

It's a period of transition, we've had to deal with a horrific  helicopter crash, we are blooding youth and adapting our play and it's natural that we will have periods in games we get it right and periods we get a bit lost and run out of ideas. We need to get to the stage where the periods of getting it right become evident for 60% plus of the game more so than 20% of the game. 

 

Puel, in my mind, is sacrificing his own reputation by looking to put the club's long term plan into place and is building a SQUAD for the future. To compete, this means being realistic about the speed of progress, buying players at the right price and right time. (January is usually a time to buy players out of desperation to avoid relegation or in a bid to secure Europe. Neither of those are likely hence between now and the end of the season, it should be about giving Soyunchu,  as an example,  a chance and looking at building further towards the long term). 

 

People call Claude boring. He was at a disadvantage from day 1.

He came with that reputation having not had time to complete the build at Southampton. ( finishing 8th there too) Combine this with his dour tone in front of the media and people assume his boring persona is also his style. Yet if you truly listen to him, where we are now and what we see is not where he wants us to be when the build is complete. We are a stable mid table team, a position all my life I'd have dreamt of us being, but even better, we are achieving this whilst slowly building to try to be even better than that.

 

As a coach I know that every supporter is also a manager who has a different view on absolutely everything from selection, even down to 1 guy awarding a player his man of the match whilst another person thinks the same player was awful. We dont work day to day with the lads, know their pschological strengths and wesknesses, see in detail how they are progressing towards what he is asking or have any rral understanding of who is easily managed and who is a negative voice. Its easy to judge from afar but to be with them every day gives him insight none of us have when we pick our preferred team for a game. 

 

We need to be patient, acknowledge the diificulties in blooding youth, changing from 1 system to various new systems, whilst dealing with huge disaster, the loss of a player that gave us excitement and loads of goals, dealing with an oversized squad of players that need moving on and credit the guy with doing all this whilst keeping us mid table in the prem, 9th out of 92 clubs!

 

Please be patient. The grass is not always greener. Replacing him could well be a good move but equally it coild bethe change thst threatens all the progress weve made. Life after Puel was not so great for Southampton. It may or may not be so great for us either

 

[Babylon]

8 minutes ago, gw_leics772 said:

I dont disagree but have to know the response to.....

 

What about spurs, they werent even too 6 not that long ago, and are now pretty much regular top 4.

 

I will give you a get out of jail card so i dont come across as ignorant and stupid though. Maybe thats just the exception that proves the rule?

Spurs finished 6th, 5th , 4th, 5th, 4th before Poch even arrived. So 4 out of 5 seasons before he got there they were in the top 6. They've done brilliantly, no two ways about it. But they were already there or there abouts, plus had the great fortune of getting Kane through the youth team, which frankly propels them from a 5th, 6th, 7th spot to top 4.

 

They had a spell in the 90's where they were pretty average, but they are more often than not up there throughout their history.

[yks]

25 minutes ago, gw_leics772 said:

I dont disagree but have to know the response to.....

 

What about spurs, they werent even too 6 not that long ago, and are now pretty much regular top 4.

 

I will give you a get out of jail card so i dont come across as ignorant and stupid though. Maybe thats just the exception that proves the rule?

How many years did it take them to accomplish that ?
I don't remember exactly but I'm quite sure the response is longer than 18 months.

[Bert]

28 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Eh, I'd not say that if you didn't manage to completely ignore me explaining how you're wrong before you even made that post...

How did I ignore you?

 

In each third of games we’ve conceded pretty much the same amount of goals bar one or two if you want to be pedantic as well as patronising. 

 

I said it was a fair point until the Cardiff game. Otherwise, how far do we go back into games trying to make an argument strong? I’m neither Puel in or Puel out purely because right now if we are to sack him I can’t see what exactly it would achieve or even where we’d go but I’m also of the understanding that results need to improve as well as performances and that’s down to Puel, partly. 

[Hanan96]

48 minutes ago, Bagworthblue said:

As a coach myself, I really wish people would just relax a bit and think bigger picture and longer term. 

 

The reality is that there 7 or 8 clubs in the Prem with a higher revenue than us and with a greater 100+ year history than us. 

 

We've been a yoyo club for 130 years and this is one if the longest periods of stability we've had in the top division, certainly in recent times. 

 

FFP prevents us from competing with 6-8 of these clubs on an equal footing as does our history when it comes to attracting the best players.

 

Puel in tandem with the club hierarchy is working to a strategy of buying young up and coming players and players that are "Not quite ready" to develop as a means to compete. We are morphing from a very singular style of play that gave us the title but which was not sustainable to a more fluid and interchangeable set of systems which take time to embed. By " time" I mean a season or 2. During this period we are embedding youth and accepting that youth brings inconsistency. It also requires a lot of close management to ensure they develop the right Pschological attributes, dont burn out or lose their heads meaning they need resting, time outs etc moreso than experienced players.  At the same time we have older players that i am sure are trying to adapt but it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks when their play style has been mentally embedded for many years. 

 

It's a period of transition, we've had to deal with a horrific  helicopter crash, we are blooding youth and adapting our play and it's natural that we will have periods in games we get it right and periods we get a bit lost and run out of ideas. We need to get to the stage where the periods of getting it right become evident for 60% plus of the game more so than 20% of the game. 

 

Puel, in my mind, is sacrificing his own reputation by looking to put the club's long term plan into place and is building a SQUAD for the future. To compete, this means being realistic about the speed of progress, buying players at the right price and right time. (January is usually a time to buy players out of desperation to avoid relegation or in a bid to secure Europe. Neither of those are likely hence between now and the end of the season, it should be about giving Soyunchu,  as an example,  a chance and looking at building further towards the long term). 

 

People call Claude boring. He was at a disadvantage from day 1.

He came with that reputation having not had time to complete the build at Southampton. ( finishing 8th there too) Combine this with his dour tone in front of the media and people assume his boring persona is also his style. Yet if you truly listen to him, where we are now and what we see is not where he wants us to be when the build is complete. We are a stable mid table team, a position all my life I'd have dreamt of us being, but even better, we are achieving this whilst slowly building to try to be even better than that.

 

As a coach I know that every supporter is also a manager who has a different view on absolutely everything from selection, even down to 1 guy awarding a player his man of the match whilst another person thinks the same player was awful. We dont work day to day with the lads, know their pschological strengths and wesknesses, see in detail how they are progressing towards what he is asking or have any rral understanding of who is easily managed and who is a negative voice. Its easy to judge from afar but to be with them every day gives him insight none of us have when we pick our preferred team for a game. 

 

We need to be patient, acknowledge the diificulties in blooding youth, changing from 1 system to various new systems, whilst dealing with huge disaster, the loss of a player that gave us excitement and loads of goals, dealing with an oversized squad of players that need moving on and credit the guy with doing all this whilst keeping us mid table in the prem, 9th out of 92 clubs!

 

Please be patient. The grass is not always greener. Replacing him could well be a good move but equally it coild bethe change thst threatens all the progress weve made. Life after Puel was not so great for Southampton. It may or may not be so great for us either

 

I tought caglar was Turkish!! You made him look chinese!!! 

[Bagworthblue]

Just now, Hanan96 said:

I tought caglar was Turkish!! You made him look chinese!!! 

Lol. I think  I will play safe and refer to him as Caglar going forward ?

 

Surprised anyone actually read that far ?

[gw_leics772]

47 minutes ago, yks said:

How many years did it take them to accomplish that ?
I don't remember exactly but I'm quite sure the response is longer than 18 months.

 

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

Spurs finished 6th, 5th , 4th, 5th, 4th before Poch even arrived. So 4 out of 5 seasons before he got there they were in the top 6. They've done brilliantly, no two ways about it. But they were already there or there abouts, plus had the great fortune of getting Kane through the youth team, which frankly propels them from a 5th, 6th, 7th spot to top 4.

 

They had a spell in the 90's where they were pretty average, but they are more often than not up there throughout their history.

Fair do's, thanks chaps.

 

My memory is not that reliable then. I always thought they were shit. Turns out it could be slightly biased ?

 

(Still think they're shit, the bastards)

[Bob Hazels shorts]

2 hours ago, Countryfox said:

Collins mentions that Puel puts the club before himself ...   and I'd agree with that. 

 

(Unfortunately people like that are a dying breed ...   and sadly, in politics nowadays its almost non-existent).

Bit of a romantic notion.

 

Like every manager we have had or will get. His draw from the warmth of the Principality of Monaco is for money.

 

Yes we are a better prospect as a club and employer and have a greater profile, but really?

[Countryfox]

23 minutes ago, Bob Hazels shorts said:

Bit of a romantic notion.

 

Like every manager we have had or will get. His draw from the warmth of the Principality of Monaco is for money.

 

Yes we are a better prospect as a club and employer and have a greater profile, but really?

 

Yes I think so ...  developing young players and getting them in the first team for experience, trying out different formations to find what’s best, getting rid of dead wood instead of just dropping a shopping list of players on the owners desk , not spending a lot of time on self promotion ...   probably more things if I think about it ...   and I’m not commenting on his ability as a football manager ..   but yes I think that remark is accurate.

[Hanan96]

58 minutes ago, gw_leics772 said:

 

Fair do's, thanks chaps.

 

My memory is not that reliable then. I always thought they were shit. Turns out it could be slightly biased ?

 

(Still think they're shit, the bastards)

They are always shit and bastards, regardless of league position 

Idk why but I hate them very much 

[Vardinio'sCat]

3 hours ago, Bagworthblue said:

As a coach myself, I really wish people would just relax a bit and think bigger picture and longer term. 

 

The reality is that there 7 or 8 clubs in the Prem with a higher revenue than us and with a greater 100+ year history than us. 

 

We've been a yoyo club for 130 years and this is one if the longest periods of stability we've had in the top division, certainly in recent times. 

 

FFP prevents us from competing with 6-8 of these clubs on an equal footing as does our history when it comes to attracting the best players.

 

Puel in tandem with the club hierarchy is working to a strategy of buying young up and coming players and players that are "Not quite ready" to develop as a means to compete. We are morphing from a very singular style of play that gave us the title but which was not sustainable to a more fluid and interchangeable set of systems which take time to embed. By " time" I mean a season or 2. During this period we are embedding youth and accepting that youth brings inconsistency. It also requires a lot of close management to ensure they develop the right Pschological attributes, dont burn out or lose their heads meaning they need resting, time outs etc moreso than experienced players.  At the same time we have older players that i am sure are trying to adapt but it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks when their play style has been mentally embedded for many years. 

 

It's a period of transition, we've had to deal with a horrific  helicopter crash, we are blooding youth and adapting our play and it's natural that we will have periods in games we get it right and periods we get a bit lost and run out of ideas. We need to get to the stage where the periods of getting it right become evident for 60% plus of the game more so than 20% of the game. 

 

Puel, in my mind, is sacrificing his own reputation by looking to put the club's long term plan into place and is building a SQUAD for the future. To compete, this means being realistic about the speed of progress, buying players at the right price and right time. (January is usually a time to buy players out of desperation to avoid relegation or in a bid to secure Europe. Neither of those are likely hence between now and the end of the season, it should be about giving Soyunchu,  as an example,  a chance and looking at building further towards the long term). 

 

People call Claude boring. He was at a disadvantage from day 1.

He came with that reputation having not had time to complete the build at Southampton. ( finishing 8th there too) Combine this with his dour tone in front of the media and people assume his boring persona is also his style. Yet if you truly listen to him, where we are now and what we see is not where he wants us to be when the build is complete. We are a stable mid table team, a position all my life I'd have dreamt of us being, but even better, we are achieving this whilst slowly building to try to be even better than that.

 

As a coach I know that every supporter is also a manager who has a different view on absolutely everything from selection, even down to 1 guy awarding a player his man of the match whilst another person thinks the same player was awful. We dont work day to day with the lads, know their pschological strengths and wesknesses, see in detail how they are progressing towards what he is asking or have any rral understanding of who is easily managed and who is a negative voice. Its easy to judge from afar but to be with them every day gives him insight none of us have when we pick our preferred team for a game. 

 

We need to be patient, acknowledge the diificulties in blooding youth, changing from 1 system to various new systems, whilst dealing with huge disaster, the loss of a player that gave us excitement and loads of goals, dealing with an oversized squad of players that need moving on and credit the guy with doing all this whilst keeping us mid table in the prem, 9th out of 92 clubs!

 

Please be patient. The grass is not always greener. Replacing him could well be a good move but equally it coild bethe change thst threatens all the progress weve made. Life after Puel was not so great for Southampton. It may or may not be so great for us either

 

 

This is a very good counterpoint to the negativity, much better than John Collins. It actually cheered me up, just to read something coherent from the mangers perspective. Not that the Puel outers don't have some pretty good arguments themselves, and several of the best outer posts have really hit home as well.

 

We desperately need CP to cobble together something that works at the KP, just to allow him the time to really show what a CP side really looks like. Poor home form brings much more pressure than poor away form, and I think he needs to be seen to be taking more risks in home games, even if they don't work.

 

Long term plans can be great things, but getting to actually carry them through is crucial.

 

 

[Ric Flair]

Ok, as a Puel outer what would I like to see him do as soon as possible to further enhance his long term.project here...

 

1) Sign and/or play a box to box midfielder

 

2) Sign a powerful striker who gives us a different option to Vardy

 

3) Try again at replacing Riyad Mahrez with a left footed attacker. Brais Mendes is available for less than half what we received for Riyad.

 

4) Try 3-4-2-1 or a variation of that as it could give the current squad the best balance from what is available. It may also be a way of getting Maddison more involved in creating from open play.

 

5) Not be afraid to use a translator to get meaningful points and views across to the fans and the media. There is a real disconnect right now that could be remedied. In time his English will improve, I have noticed his quick witted responses show there's a side to him he seems to keep closed off most of the time.

 

6) take the latter stages of cup competitions more seriously. If the balancing act of keeping his squad injury free is so hard then phase the rotation evenly in the lead up to cup games. It's not as if he doesnt rotate heavily in the league and at times gamble on the outcome of a result, a QF of the cup is as important as a league game if we want to give ourselves the best chance of adding to our silverware. Especially when the difference between 7th and 13th is likely to be 7-9 points over 38 games. We would have more than enough opportunity to make up for any supposed lost points through favouring latter stages of cups if they present themselves.

 

All of the above is achievable, if he were able to make in roads on a few of these points then I'd be more content with this supposed long term vision and identity. It's not so much the boring football, but what's leading to the boring football. I dont buy in to him wanting us to be that horrific and turgid at home but surely he must realise the limitations of a central midfield of Ndidi and Mendy or a defence of Morgan, Simpson and the lack of pace of Maguire will make it harder for ourselves.

 

If the finances arent there to do steps 1-3 then I find this a huge gamble on the clubs part, because it's a massive obstacle in changing the way we play and allowing Puel the chance to carry out what he's started here. You cant polish a turd and from the midfield he has left it's pretty grim, likewise our options up front.

 

Puel needs time and patience but it's difficult to give him that if the end goal isn't clear and whether it's worth the risk. 

[SheppyFox]

9 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Most of those were draws though against very mediocre teams at home.

This post is the only one I’ve ever seen that’s been responded to with the full range of forum emotions reactions that are at our disposal here on FoxesTalk   

[Ian Nacho]

They'll be saying next we won the league so what's the problem. 

[The Prince]

1 hour ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

This is a very good counterpoint to the negativity, much better than John Collins. It actually cheered me up, just to read something coherent from the mangers perspective. Not that the Puel outers don't have some pretty good arguments themselves, and several of the best outer posts have really hit home as well.

 

We desperately need CP to cobble together something that works at the KP, just to allow him the time to really show what a CP side really looks like. Poor home form brings much more pressure than poor away form, and I think he needs to be seen to be taking more risks in home games, even if they don't work.

 

Long term plans can be great things, but getting to actually carry them through is crucial.

 

 

I think this is the point. I’m not sure there are many ‘Puel in’ people who are convinced he is the man to take us forward. It is simply that we crave stability (sick of the managerial merry-go-round) and have seen enough under Puel to believe it might just work out if we are patient. Of course it’s frustrating at times, slightly boring at times but reasons given many times on this forum are all valid (young players, transition, etc). 

 

He he has not helped himself at times and that adds fuel to the fire but to argue it's all going backwards is simply not true. 

[onekeithweller]

John Collins Fan Club 

[Oadlad]

I don't think that it is a physical fitness issue, but given the relatively young age of the teams put out it could be a concentration factor.

This takes time and experience to master over two halves, particularly at Premier level. And it points to the need for  an experienced mind in midfield to read games and conduct the band (Estaban style). And the failure of a couple of the young prospects to not develop to their expected level has complicated consistency levels.

[Dan]

He makes some valid points but, as ever, it's very easy to say as an outsider who has watched 10% of us under Puel maximum.

 

Most ridiculous sounding statement ever here but if you didn't have to watch any football you would say it was all good  

[jim5000]

17 hours ago, Bert said:

"If they were leggy or poorly prepared, they’d be losing a goal early in the game and then they’d be losing more goals as the game wore on,” said Collins. 

 

We’ve also won one game in our last four. When was the last time we had a really good decent run of form?

 

It's like he's not watching the matches, we regularly let in the first goal early on, and we lose to lots of late goals. Wolves with the last kick of the match, and a Newport penalty (when we really should have been the fitter and stronger team) with less than 10 minutes to go spring immediately to mind.

[Dan]

To be fair @Bagworthblue as someone who has lost faith in him of late, that's probably the best post in favour of him I've read yet.

 

My two questions on Puel are the same as they've been for a while. Are the good things he gets credit for actually because of him or is it a club effort? Are the bad things he gets stick for because of him or not?

 

Too often I've had the inclination to say question one is that there's a chance it comes from above Puel, while the second question I've often been a lot more confident in saying that he's the issue.

 

I think our model is right but it still looks a way off bearing fruit to me and it may be the manager going that could fix this. Obviously you have to get someone in who fits what we want, if my assumption is right.

[PaulW]

21 hours ago, Mark said:

Stopped reading at sitting ninth in the league like it automatically makes everything ok ?

Maybe not, but it bloody helps.

[Ric Flair]

I dont know where Collins John has got this notion of fitness being the issue, not a single fan or journalist has questioned that. It's just another case of somebody completely misunderstanding why Puel is unpopular here. 

 

The sluggish starts might be down to how much he bores the players in to complete apathy before games.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

9 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I dont know where Collins John has got this notion of fitness being the issue, not a single fan or journalist has questioned that. It's just another case of somebody completely misunderstanding why Puel is unpopular here. 

 

The sluggish starts might be down to how much he bores the players in to complete apathy before games.

This is closer to the reports I have read.   Still doesnt explain slow starts to me over the period of a season and I still think its down to players not being used to the style of play.

We start just fine against the big teams where the onus isnt on us to do something with the ball

Many of our players are just not able to put high intensity into a passing game in which we have possession against lower teams, thats my suspicion, and so they are blaming the methods

 

Which in a way is correct, its the method's fault perhaps that we start slow.  But as far as we have seen over the last couple of seasons the alternative is to hoof it up the pitch to zero joy

[Alf Bentley]

15 hours ago, SheppyFox said:

This post is the only one I’ve ever seen that’s been responded to with the full range of forum emotions reactions that are at our disposal here on FoxesTalk   

 

[Grebfromgrebland]

8 hours ago, jim5000 said:

 

It's like he's not watching the matches, we regularly let in the first goal early on, and we lose to lots of late goals. Wolves with the last kick of the match, and a Newport penalty (when we really should have been the fitter and stronger team) with less than 10 minutes to go spring immediately to mind.

You can't blame him for the brain farts of albrighton and Morgan