England squad for Euro 2020 qualifiers against the Czech Republic and Bulgaria - Chilwell and Maddison

[dmayne7]

4 minutes ago, KingsX said:

This week's Athletic PL column by ex-BBC journo David Ornstein included a bit on Maddison and the England squad.

 

It is accepted that his casino trip was naive, but it will not be held against him.

He will, however, have a battle to break into the team as it becomes increasingly clear Southgate and the FA are committed to rewarding players who come through the national system.

Eyebrows were raised when 20-year-old Chelsea midfielder Mason Mount was preferred to Maddison as a second-half substitute in the home qualifiers against Bulgaria and Kosovo. But internally the decisions came as no surprise, considering Mount represented England at virtually every youth level and Maddison has only nine caps for the under-21 side.

Those with limited experience of the system are in no way excluded, as the likes of Jamie Vardy and Tyrone Mings have shown, but there is a concerted effort to respect the system as a first port of call. That stems from a greater familiarity and mutual understanding between players and staff and a desire to provide emerging talent with a credible pathway to the senior team.

This is why the Watford midfielder Nathaniel Chalobah, 24, will always be on England’s radar and a player such as Chelsea defender Marc Guehi, 19, was called up to the under-21s prior to making a first-team appearance for the Blues. They both represented their country at multiple youth levels and experienced a pathway that is now being described as a “massive, central consideration”.

 

https://theathletic.co.uk/1342743/2019/11/04/ornstein-on-monday-liverpool-reject-qatar-hotel-over-ethical-concerns-big-clubs-pushed-hardest-for-var-beardsley-barred-sol-bans-ketchup/?redirected=1

 

 

Absolutely ridiculous. What a way to hold a country back. Surely those who prove themselves without going through the youth system have shown more determination and resilience?

 

Crazy idea but how about we pick players on merit?

[urban.spaceman]

12 minutes ago, KingsX said:

This week's Athletic PL column by ex-BBC journo David Ornstein included a bit on Maddison and the England squad.

 

It is accepted that his casino trip was naive, but it will not be held against him.

He will, however, have a battle to break into the team as it becomes increasingly clear Southgate and the FA are committed to rewarding players who come through the national system.

Eyebrows were raised when 20-year-old Chelsea midfielder Mason Mount was preferred to Maddison as a second-half substitute in the home qualifiers against Bulgaria and Kosovo. But internally the decisions came as no surprise, considering Mount represented England at virtually every youth level and Maddison has only nine caps for the under-21 side.

Those with limited experience of the system are in no way excluded, as the likes of Jamie Vardy and Tyrone Mings have shown, but there is a concerted effort to respect the system as a first port of call. That stems from a greater familiarity and mutual understanding between players and staff and a desire to provide emerging talent with a credible pathway to the senior team.

This is why the Watford midfielder Nathaniel Chalobah, 24, will always be on England’s radar and a player such as Chelsea defender Marc Guehi, 19, was called up to the under-21s prior to making a first-team appearance for the Blues. They both represented their country at multiple youth levels and experienced a pathway that is now being described as a “massive, central consideration”.

 

https://theathletic.co.uk/1342743/2019/11/04/ornstein-on-monday-liverpool-reject-qatar-hotel-over-ethical-concerns-big-clubs-pushed-hardest-for-var-beardsley-barred-sol-bans-ketchup/?redirected=1

 

 

Haven't paid for the Athletic so I can't read that. Can someone give me a list of what it says?

[Ric Flair]

10 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

Absolutely ridiculous. What a way to hold a country back. Surely those who prove themselves without going through the youth system have shown more determination and resilience?

 

Crazy idea but how about we pick players on merit?

Absolutely fcukin ludicrous! It's great if there is a conveyor belt of talent through the age groups, we've seen the likes of Sancho, Foden, Hudson-Odoi, Mount etc win the U17's World Cup and a nucleus of that squad has progressed to being first team PL players that are good enough already for the senior England side but it is by no means the only way to get a senior call up and to be an integral part of the team.

 

Anyway, Maddison has come through various England age groups I thought?

[volpeazzurro]

16 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

Absolutely ridiculous. What a way to hold a country back. Surely those who prove themselves without going through the youth system have shown more determination and resilience?

 

Crazy idea but how about we pick players on merit?

Far too sensible, it'll never catch on. Total bollocks isn't it, whilst I like the idea of a system, if you're good enough, in form, regardless of age, young or old you should have the opportunity to play. By all means plan for the future, but strive to win the competition your are currently in.

[KingsX]

14 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Haven't paid for the Athletic so I can't read that. Can someone give me a list of what it says?

 

I quoted the entire bit on Maddison except for a couple more sentences about the casino visit.

 

I'm trying to stay on the right side of the Mods by only using the Athletic on occasion when I can quote a small part of an article but still offer the gist.  Others have been warned for cutting and pasting whole articles.

[Corky]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

Absolutely fcukin ludicrous! It's great if there is a conveyor belt of talent through the age groups, we've seen the likes of Sancho, Foden, Hudson-Odoi, Mount etc win the U17's World Cup and a nucleus of that squad has progressed to being first team PL players that are good enough already for the senior England side but it is by no means the only way to get a senior call up and to be an integral part of the team.

 

Anyway, Maddison has come through various England age groups I thought?

And it is a bit of a lottery too. Maddison came through at Coventry who were a League One team so not likely to get into the national set-up early on, whereas a kid at Chelsea or Tottenham has a much better chance of getting noticed.

 

No-one should be penalised for their pathway, a lot of the time you don't choose it.

[UniFox21]

Absolutely ludicrous. Your place in the national team should be on merit and hard work; not the fact you play for team X or have played for the younger national teams.  Our national set up is run by buffoons. 

 

The line on Vardy and Mings is ridiculous as well. Vardy was second fiddle and a sub for the majority of his England career and Mings has played once, hardly examples to use. 

 

Maddison has been incredible for us, yet he has to fight his way into the England team due to working his way up the league system rather than being made in a top 6 academy. I genuinely lose faith in our national side the more I hear

 

The policy is made even funnier when you realise Declan rice is a starter having never played in our youth team set up

Edited 6 November 2019 by UniFox21

[Dahnsouff]

That article is a horror story on so many levels, the bit about VAR is evidence of what a closed shop these so called super clubs almost demand the league to be.

It is just disgusting.

[Xen]

There are countless examples of players who develop late and suddenly become good enough for international football when they're 23+. Just look at Vardy for the biggest example of that. To say that players will be preferred if they've come through the system risks completely missing all those supremely talented players who go a different route.

 

 

Wouldn't be surprised if the measure of success for the England youth setup is the number of players they can progress into the senior squad, and this kind of behaviour is the result of them leaning on former youth coach Southgate and their buddies at FA HQ to ensure that their quotas are being met... 

 

[Leeds Fox]

So the FA’s closed mindedness of picking players for the youth teams from the big clubs, then follows on to being favoured for the senior team if you’ve gone through the youth system. 

 

Pure elitism that is present in so many sectors. Ignoring talent and hard work and favouring ‘the boys’. 

[turtmcfly]

3 hours ago, KingsX said:

This week's Athletic PL column by ex-BBC journo David Ornstein included a bit on Maddison and the England squad.

 

It is accepted that his casino trip was naive, but it will not be held against him.

He will, however, have a battle to break into the team as it becomes increasingly clear Southgate and the FA are committed to rewarding players who come through the national system.

Eyebrows were raised when 20-year-old Chelsea midfielder Mason Mount was preferred to Maddison as a second-half substitute in the home qualifiers against Bulgaria and Kosovo. But internally the decisions came as no surprise, considering Mount represented England at virtually every youth level and Maddison has only nine caps for the under-21 side.

Those with limited experience of the system are in no way excluded, as the likes of Jamie Vardy and Tyrone Mings have shown, but there is a concerted effort to respect the system as a first port of call. That stems from a greater familiarity and mutual understanding between players and staff and a desire to provide emerging talent with a credible pathway to the senior team.

This is why the Watford midfielder Nathaniel Chalobah, 24, will always be on England’s radar and a player such as Chelsea defender Marc Guehi, 19, was called up to the under-21s prior to making a first-team appearance for the Blues. They both represented their country at multiple youth levels and experienced a pathway that is now being described as a “massive, central consideration”.

 

https://theathletic.co.uk/1342743/2019/11/04/ornstein-on-monday-liverpool-reject-qatar-hotel-over-ethical-concerns-big-clubs-pushed-hardest-for-var-beardsley-barred-sol-bans-ketchup/?redirected=1

 

 

 

Not very much included either, to the extent he excluded himself.

[surrifox]

I remember despising the Man U supporters who glorified in Ferguson refusing permission for players to join the England squad stating that their only concern was the success of United.

 

I’m now totally uninvested in the England set up , I can’t believe how indifferent I am to their performance in tournaments . I just want our players to rest and avoid injury and be available for the next City match - the FA and their endless conveyor belt of shite time servers has finally done me 

[onekeithweller]

1 hour ago, Corky said:

And it is a bit of a lottery too. Maddison came through at Coventry who were a League One team so not likely to get into the national set-up early on, whereas a kid at Chelsea or Tottenham has a much better chance of getting noticed.

 

No-one should be penalised for their pathway, a lot of the time you don't choose it.

I'll be very happy if we can continue to attract players of Vardy and Maddisons ability and if they never get a sniff of St George's Park.

Football's ruling elites incompetence is only outmatched by their corruption.

[Crazy Kop Corner]

I think Southgates limitations are now becoming evident. I can’t see what Maddison did wrong by going to the Casino - media nonsense - and he should be in the team on merit rather than the mediocrity Southgate continues to select. He talks a good game but I’m struggling to think of a really good England performance under his reign. He’s bang average.

Edited 6 November 2019 by Crazy Kop Corner

[Stadt]

That policy is already very selectively applied. So much wrong with it but for example, Barnes has progressed through the England youth groups, yet despite having probably 50x the career minutes Hudson-Odou has he’ll never get close to the caps latter will. 
 

I never really fully believed in big club bias for England as Chilwell, Maguire and Vardy all broke in to the England camp with us but they’re definitely exceptions.

 

Maddison is better than mount, Chilwell is better than Rose now & Callum Wilson’s been superb for a few seasons but barely plays over a declining and unfit Kane. Alli and Lingard have never done it for England but have had consistent minutes and call ups. Barkley hasn’t been performing well at club level for years but his spot isn’t challenged at all. Granted he plays better for England than Chelsea but his form shouldn’t get him in the squad anyway.

 

Declan Rice, as already mentioned, didn’t go through ‘the pathway’ but is in the closed shop quite comfortably. What does Maddison have to do? Leave the 3rd best team in the country? 
 

Southgate got the best out of a poor squad but now he’s getting less than he can out of a reasonably good one. Bin him off.

[urban fox]

Really thought that England had turned a corner with Southgate's first few squads, a few of the old guard being phased out, looking to youth and picking squads on merit.  That all seems to have gone out the window and the "big" club bias is back. Does make you question how much pressure is put on by the FA looking to shmooze the sponsors and the PL (and hence their cash cow "big six" who are pulling their strings.

If the team was truly being picked on merit then Wilson Maddison and one or two others would be getting a lot more game time instead of the likes of Linguard, Alli and Barkley. What really riles me though is when he picks players that have not even been in their clubs sides through injury or even worse poor form.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, KingsX said:

"It is accepted that his casino trip was naive, but it will not be held against him."

According to Jason Burt in the Telegraph his place is under threat and Southgate took "a dim view of the incident". I guess we'll see but you do very much get the impression that they've made their minds up about him. It's ok because Dele Alli is supposedly pushing for a recall after turning up for a game for the first time in about two years  

 

Good to see Jack Grealish is also being considered for a call-up, though I note he's only made seven appearances for the U21s so there must have been some kind of mistake there. Can't have too many players finding their way around the system, else we might end up with a team that doesn't consist entirely of ****ing robots who couldn't play an incisive pass if their lives depended on it.

 

The actual pathway to the England senior team is a) does Southgate know you from the youth teams or b) does Steve Holland know you from Chelsea. 

[urban fox]

21 minutes ago, Guest said:

According to Jason Burt in the Telegraph his place is under threat and Southgate took "a dim view of the incident". I guess we'll see but you do very much get the impression that they've made their minds up about him. It's ok because Dele Alli is supposedly pushing for a recall after turning up for a game for the first time in about two years  

 

Good to see Jack Grealish is also being considered for a call-up, though I note he's only made seven appearances for the U21s so there must have been some kind of mistake there. Can't have too many players finding their way around the system, else we might end up with a team that doesn't consist entirely of ****ing robots who couldn't play an incisive pass if their lives depended on it.

 

The actual pathway to the England senior team is a) does Southgate know you from the youth teams or b) does Steve Holland know you from Chelsea. 

Gives GS an excuse to ignore the most creative player in the PL in favour of one of his "big" club flops.

"Jesse Linguard is such a good boy he deserves his place over someone who is being disrespectful by actually using his free time to pursue a hobby after being released from the squad, despite the fact that he is currently playing absolute sh*te." Gareth was quoted as saying when he announced his latest squad. He went on to add that "he didn't want to upset all those dedicated fans based in London by not picking Delli Alli who is such a petulant child he would cry if left out"