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[Scotch]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Repeating because I am still interested in an answer from those here who would say the gathering last night shouldn't have happened (and yes, by the letter of the law, it shouldn't).

 

Let's talk solutions rather than problems if the cause is actually worth something.

It wasn't supposed to be a "Cause" though, was it? It was supposed to be a vigil to pay respects to a murdered woman. She isn't a "cause". She was a daughter a partner and a loved one. IMO it does her a massive disservice to turn her into a crusade. 

 

Now thats not to say that there isn't a cause to be had, there is but last night wasn't it. 

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

I'll read through this later but if anyone wants to save me the bother, if they can let themselves known if they think there's any reason people shouldn't be allowed to hold a vigil for a murdered woman, or for women to protest the right to feel safe, without being attacked by the police let themselves known so I can put you on block. 

[TamworthFoxes]

1 minute ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

I'll read through this later but if anyone wants to save me the bother, if they can let themselves known if they think there's any reason people shouldn't be allowed to hold a vigil for a murdered woman, or for women to protest the right to feel safe, without being attacked by the police let themselves known so I can put you on block. 

Put me on block, the good reason is a pandemic that has killed over 100,000 people.

[peach0000]

1 minute ago, Gordon the Great said:

Read the above and weep folks, just pray that this is not indicative of the average City fan or contributor to this forum..ACAB...really...........ACAB!...It will be home rule for Tooting next!

 

5 minutes ago, TamworthFoxes said:

Definitely not when a post contains ACAB at the end and gets more than one thumbs up!

Tells you everything about the leanings of people on here.

I was one of those who reacted positively to that post. I didn't know what ACAB meant. I googled it and have removed my reaction. I agree with the criticism of police in this situation but not  in general. I think in general the police in this country are actually very good even if I think they got it wrong in this case (I know you guys don't think that, not trying to start another discussion). Also my criticisms are just for the Met and not the other excellent police forces in the country. Leicestershire police for example in my experiences are excellent.

[Buce]

 

Anyone who thinks the average copper isn't a racist, misogynistic, right-wing thug must live in a fvcking bubble.

[theessexfox]

Genuinely would anyone have given a shit if a few hundred people milled around the bandstand in Clapham Common and paid their respects and registered a bit of communal grief and anger about the way women in the community and country feel unsafe at night? Does anyone give a shit about the peaceful vigil that happened in Nottingham and other places? Borough Market is busier and more crowded in the day but the police aren’t trying to disperse that because it’s stimulating the economy, the risk of transmission last night was so ridiculously small until the police forced a confrontation

[Gordon the Great]

3 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

I'll read through this later but if anyone wants to save me the bother, if they can let themselves known if they think there's any reason people shouldn't be allowed to hold a vigil for a murdered woman, or for women to protest the right to feel safe, without being attacked by the police let themselves known so I can put you on block. 

If you truly believe the above, and that this group has not been infiltrated and used by the usual "Demo" suspects for political opportunism please "Pop me on block". Thank you.

[Scotch]

3 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

I'll read through this later but if anyone wants to save me the bother, if they can let themselves known if they think there's any reason people shouldn't be allowed to hold a vigil for a murdered woman, or for women to protest the right to feel safe, without being attacked by the police let themselves known so I can put you on block. 

Volunteering myself for the block. 

 

Its not about the thousands of people who put themselves at risk by gathering in such numbers. Its about those people who weren't there that they put at risk also. Their colleagues who now have to share an office with them, their customers who will have contact with them, the commuter on the train next to them or who sits on the seat after them. These people are now at a greater risk of catching the virus through no fault of their own. 

[theessexfox]

Just now, Gordon the Great said:

If you truly believe the above, and that this group has not been infiltrated and used by the usual "Demo" suspects for political opportunism please "Pop me on block". Thank you.

If political opportunism = the opportunity to highlight the scale of the problem facing women and the constant, everyday harassment and fear they face, then yeah probably political opportunism. People wanted to pay their respects to Sarah but people are also angry and scared about what has happened and how it has been dealt with and how the police tell women the only way they can be safe is to stay at home.

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

My thoughts - The doorstep tribute yesterday, vigils/ protests when permissible but above all a campaign that seeks to educate about how certain behaviour affects the person that it is directed at. Something like an ad campaign and talks in schools - this is what you say/this is how that makes me feel. You could criminalise certain behaviours but the most effective and long term solution is to change minds/values by educating 

Yeah, that all seems fair enough.

 

Unfortunately I fear there may be pushback even against that from those who believe the current attitudes are acceptable.

 

10 minutes ago, TamworthFoxes said:

Definitely not when a post contains ACAB at the end and gets more than one thumbs up!

Tells you everything about the leanings of people on here.

Lest we forget, it was the horrible abuse of authority by an authority figure that led directly to this situation in the first place.

 

And such abuses of power - and the aiding and abetting of them - may thankfully be few and far between in the UK, but perhaps not so much around the world.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, Foxy_Bear said:

It wasn't supposed to be a "Cause" though, was it? It was supposed to be a vigil to pay respects to a murdered woman. She isn't a "cause". She was a daughter a partner and a loved one. IMO it does her a massive disservice to turn her into a crusade. 

 

Now thats not to say that there isn't a cause to be had, there is but last night wasn't it. 

If the terrible events of the last few days don't prove something has to change, what exactly does?

[Sir Shep]

7 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Anyone who thinks the average copper isn't a racist, misogynistic, right-wing thug must live in a fvcking bubble.

You sound like a university academic who’s been told off by the police for riding your bike on the pavement! Do you seriously think this?

[Mike Oxlong]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, that all seems fair enough.

 

Unfortunately I fear there may be pushback even against that from those who believe the current attitudes are acceptable.

 

Lest we forget, it was the horrible abuse of authority by an authority figure that led directly to this situation in the first place.

 

And such abuses of power - and the aiding and abetting of them - may thankfully be few and far between in the UK, but perhaps not so much around the world.

You must know that changing attitudes of all is nigh on impossible whether it’s this, racism or homophobia but changing the attitudes or awareness of the mainstream can be achieved as demonstrated by positive changes in societal attitudes in recent years 

[Scotch]

Just now, leicsmac said:

If the terrible events of the last few days don't prove something has to change, what exactly does?

I'm sorry, I fear you misundertand me. 

 

I'm not saying that things don't have to change. What I was saying that last night was supposed to be a vigil for a murdered woman. 

 

It shouldn't have been about change LAST NIGHT, it should have been about Sarah and it wasn't. 

[Big Dave]

29 minutes ago, Gordon the Great said:

 

This really has to be post of the year on any of our forums, a massive blast of rational clear thinking common sense which as we all know is not so common. I really do congratulate you on this wise, well thought out and articulate post but, be warned, it will not go down well in some quarters on here.

I don’t dispute that (on the whole), the Police do a good job.  When I have criticised the Police today, I am more criticising those higher up in the force, not those on the ground who were following orders.

 

The handling by the police has been criticised by the Mayor of London, The Home Secretary, the Lib Dem leader, the Labour leader plus countless others, so myself and others on this forum are certainly not alone.

 

One of the issues here is how the Police failed to engage with the organisers when they were given the opportunity (which they have a duty to do). The organisers had Covid secure plans in place, and had in the region of 50 marshals ready to assist with the event.

Once this vigil was talked about, it was always going to happen (a la BLM, etc).

If the Police had done their duty, fully engaged with the organisers and allowed this to happen in a proper organised way, there would not have been the issues we saw last night.

 

Why were BLM protests (with the potential for violence) allowed to go ahead, yet a peaceful vigil not even fully discussed?

 

My niece was at the vigil last night (she lives in London and has been the subject of cat calling) and said it was peaceful until the Police moved in.

Edited 14 March 2021 by Big Dave

[Mike Oxlong]

10 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Anyone who thinks the average copper isn't a racist, misogynistic, right-wing thug must live in a fvcking bubble.

You haven’t got any sharp objects on your person have you ? I don’t want anyone bursting my bubble. I think the police have problems with all of those but am not convinced that they are representative of your “average copper”

[nnfox]

16 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

They're heavy handed when there is no danger to themselves. Hence why they shat their pants at the BLM rallies and were chased all over London.

And they were criticised for that.  My gut feeling is that the BLM rallies went that way, not because the officers on the frontline were scared of physical confrontation, it was more like the commanding officers were scared of the backlash from images of police officers getting physical with people who were protesting about perceived police brutality 5000 miles away.  One wrong step and there would have been full on riots.

 

It was and is a delicate balancing act and this week's report seems redress that balance somewhat (until Priti Patel and others want to score political points).

[Sol thewall Bamba]

21 minutes ago, TamworthFoxes said:

Put me on block, the good reason is a pandemic that has killed over 100,000 people.

Without going down a massive rabbit hole here, it was widely reported that protests didn't cause a spike in cases anywhere:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/07/01/research-determines-protests-did-not-cause-spike-in-coronavirus-cases/

 

Neither did people at beaches:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-covid-shielding-lockdown-end-vaccine-uk-cases/

 

"Yeah but the pandemic" isn't a get out of jail free card for everything.

 

Edited 14 March 2021 by Sol thewall Bamba

[leicsmac]

Just now, Mike Oxlong said:

You must know that changing attitudes of all is nigh on impossible whether it’s this, racism or homophobia but changing the attitudes or awareness of the mainstream can be achieved as demonstrated by positive changes in societal attitudes in recent years 

I think changes can happen and are happening, yeah. The attitude shift even in the last couple of decades proves that.

 

However, sometimes things happen that can act as a catalyst, and that could end up saving more lives and stopping more misery in the future.

 

2 minutes ago, Foxy_Bear said:

I'm sorry, I fear you misundertand me. 

 

I'm not saying that things don't have to change. What I was saying that last night was supposed to be a vigil for a murdered woman. 

 

It shouldn't have been about change LAST NIGHT, it should have been about Sarah and it wasn't. 

Thank you for clarifying your position.

 

Personally, I think it's perfectly possible to use such an event to both remember an innocent woman (allegedly) killed by a figure meant to be a beacon of trust in society, and also to make it clear that effecting change might result in an atmosphere where such things are less likely to happen again, either through changing attitudes or through being better able to isolate those who would seek to do this and stopping them before they do (or both).

[theessexfox]

Anyway, I’m glad everyone got their voices heard yesterday before the further clampdown on protests going through the Commons next week. This legislation is seriously scary stuff for a self-proclaimed liberal democracy, whatever side of the political spectrum you sit on. https://www.politics.co.uk/comment/2021/03/11/silencing-black-lives-matter-priti-patels-anti-protest-law/

[StanSP]

1 hour ago, harpendenfox said:

Surely if the Police had kept a distant and low profile, then the gathering, described as being in the hundreds, takes place and then disperses of its own accord with no harm done?

You'd think it would be that easy (and I agree).

 

It sounds like the tension derived from the police being there. It was peaceful from the sounds of it (ironically), police turned up, became oddly heavy-handed and caused proper chaos and angst to an already-mournful and highly-emotionally-charged group (for good reason).

[peach0000]

1 minute ago, theessexfox said:

Anyway, I’m glad everyone got their voices heard yesterday before the further clampdown on protests going through the Commons next week. This legislation is seriously scary stuff for a self-proclaimed liberal democracy, whatever side of the political spectrum you sit on. https://www.politics.co.uk/comment/2021/03/11/silencing-black-lives-matter-priti-patels-anti-protest-law/

This needs highlighting. Wherever you sit on the political spectrum and whatever views you have this bill needs stopping. It's an infringement on our fundamental rights and will damage democracy. It reads like something that Putins Russia would comes up with. For example it'll give the police powers to stop protests they deem will be 'too noisy'. 

[Big Dave]

3 minutes ago, theessexfox said:

Anyway, I’m glad everyone got their voices heard yesterday before the further clampdown on protests going through the Commons next week. This legislation is seriously scary stuff for a self-proclaimed liberal democracy, whatever side of the political spectrum you sit on. https://www.politics.co.uk/comment/2021/03/11/silencing-black-lives-matter-priti-patels-anti-protest-law/

That’s weird - Priti Patel has been one of the biggest critics of the Police’s handling of events last night.

[Scotch]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Thank you for clarifying your position.

 

Personally, I think it's perfectly possible to use such an event to both remember an innocent woman (allegedly) killed by a figure meant to be a beacon of trust in society, and also to make it clear that effecting change might result in an atmosphere where such things are less likely to happen again, either through changing attitudes or through being better able to isolate those who would seek to do this and stopping them before they do (or both).

It probably is possible but I personally feel that it would have been far more powerful and respectful to have had last night a a vigil, for people to go along, light a candle, lay flowers and say a prayer and then had a protest in her name at a later date to then try and effect change for Sarah and every other woman who doesn't feel safe. 

[Innovindil]

Alright lads tone it down a bit eh. Life's shite enough right now without being at each others throats.