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UniFox21

2020/21 Under 23's, U19's, Development ... thread

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53 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

So we’re amongst the top academies in the country? I would like to see the academy improve, and although we have played well before, the style of football last night was poor. Yet it’s hard to condemn an academy that’s amongst the best in the country.

If that's how an academy is measured as being a top academy then ok. I personally think there's a bit more to it than that but I also don't think it should be dismissed that its as bad as I make out given the 3-4 players that have come through in the last 5 years. 

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I've been watching our U23's for years & there always seems to be someone there that excites you & makes you think they could be the real deal. I do not get that feeling at the moment, the team seems very ordinary & I can see no-one at all who stands out. I really think that the state of the academy is very poor & I wonder what will happen if they get relegated as could well happen.

 

Couple this with the fact that the U18's are marooned at the bottom of their league & the future does not look that bright

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3 hours ago, jamesmilner said:

Academy players , Chilwell and Barnes have both gained international caps, which is great achievement . Could someone point out which other club has achieved this lately ? It's doing okay in what its supposed to do IMO . I also think that time is needed,  to give the influence of the new facilities to kick in . With Covid about i can not see any changes being made until a later date . 

Just off the top of my head.....

 

Man Utd....Liverpool....Chelsea....Tottenham....Man City....Southampton....

 

(PS  Ironically, Barnes & Chilwell both benefitted by loan moves aged 19/20 as opposed to being stuck in our U23s for 3-4 years playing Beagleball....which is precisely the essence of this debate) 

 

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5 hours ago, Webbo said:

Could it be that clubs didn't want to loan any of these players from us? 

Very probably....which begs the question why?

 

If they are not good enough for League 1 or 2 loans at 20 years old, are they really going to make it into our first team by the time they are 23?

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20 hours ago, Incognito said:

At what point will it become necessary for Top or Susan Whelan to intervene and sort out the academy?

 

As has been said by others, Rudkin has done a great job as DoF (against seemingly everyone's expectations). But he is doing no favours for anyone by keeping Beaglehole in a job with the 23's. There needs to be a coherent plan in place where from 1st team down, they all follow a similar ethos and pathway. Even under Micky Adams ffs did the old reserve side play 4-4-2 to mirror his first team.

 

For every Chilwell, Thomas and Choudhury, we are getting a Ndukwu, Elder and Muskwe. Nothing against the latter three, I hope all go on to have fine careers, but if they are not good enough for us then it serves them better to be released to move on to find football elsewhere akin to their levels. Elder seemingly has in League One with Hull, and Muskwe is doing ok with Wycombe. I dare say Ndukwu may have to drop to the National League based on his prior loan experiences. In my humble opinion, there are not enough KDH's or Vardy's (yes, he developed later elsewhere) to justify keeping young players knocking around until they are 23 with no prospect of first team football.

 

Bit of a ramble, but in essence the whole structure below first team level needs streamlining. That way, the focus can go on those most likely to make it with us, rather than farming players who will eventually go on to be stalwarts at Kidderminster Harriers and Stalybridge Celtic.

You don't buy a dog and bark yourself!

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Angus Scott said:

I've been watching our U23's for years & there always seems to be someone there that excites you & makes you think they could be the real deal. I do not get that feeling at the moment, the team seems very ordinary & I can see no-one at all who stands out. I really think that the state of the academy is very poor & I wonder what will happen if they get relegated as could well happen.

 

Couple this with the fact that the U18's are marooned at the bottom of their league & the future does not look that bright

Get used to it for another couple of seasons

Edited by Kilworthfox
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On 02/02/2021 at 09:48, davieG said:

Some players are just stocking fillers we're not big/rich enough to attract a whole Academy full of potential certainties but we do need some to enable us to put out a team. 

 

So i'll go back to me continuing view that we'd be better off with a Reserve team so that the real potentials play with the 1st team squad players not getting games and for those coming back from injury.

 

We then don't need so many stocking fillers.

 

On 02/02/2021 at 09:53, Lesta2014 said:

Reserve league was great back in the day! Bumper crowds too when first team playing was playing and getting minutes before first team! 

 

Just playing the devil's advocate.   I was not really interested in the academy side when I was younger but I am guessing that Reserves got scrapped because some younger players were not getting enough game time and that their spots were taken by the first teamers not getting a look in thus setting up under 23s?   I also imagine it would be easier to stockpile players in hope of getting 2/3 gems rather than trimming it down and gambling on the selected few hence the need to have enough players to fill teams?

 

Sorry-  I am probably still bit naive about this aspect of football.  

 

 

Edited by The Blur
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1 hour ago, Lesta2014 said:

What happened to Ndukwu? He still with us? Not playing for any side now is he?

terrible loan spell at Southend features occasionally for the U23s, not sure why he hasn't been released, had high hopes for him but injuries stunted his progress badly

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1 minute ago, The Blur said:

 

 

Just playing the devil's advocate.   I was not really interested in the academy side when I was younger but I am guessing that Reserves got scrapped because some younger players were not getting enough game time and that their spots were taken by the first teamers not getting a look in thus setting up under 23s?   I also imagine it would be easier to stockpile players in hope of getting 2/3 gems rather than trimming it down and gambling on the selected few hence the need to have enough players to fill teams?

 

Sorry-  I am probably still bit naive about this aspect of football.  

 

 

I don't think it was that I seem to recall it ended when the PL wanted to extend their influence and visibility by creating PL 2.

 

From Wiki

 

The Premier Reserve League (officially known as The Barclays Premier Reserve League for sponsorship reasons) was the reserve team league for the top English football teams in the Premier League. The league was split into a northern and a southern division.

The league started out in 1999, replacing The Central League in the north and The Football Combination in the south as the top level of reserve-team football, although those competitions continued for lower-level teams and from 2004 to 2005, the regional champions would play-off for the title.

From the 2006–07 edition until its disbandment, the league was only open to sides whose senior teams were one of the 20 members of the Premier League. As a result, a senior team's relegation from the Premier League would mean relegation for the reserve team from the Premier Reserve League and replacement by the reserve team of the promoted team from the Championship.

Tottenham Hotspur decided against entering a side for the 2009–10 Premier Reserve League season and other teams followed suit in the 2 following seasons. The final season was the 2011–12 season. At the end of that season, it was replaced by an Under-21 competition, called the Professional Development League 1.

 

From the PL site

 

Premier League 2 is a competition that replaced the Under-21 Premier League from 2016/17, with a greater focus on technicality, physicality and intensity to bring players as close to first-team experience as possible.

The age limit for players is now Under-23.

 

I'm pretty certain that "with a greater focus on technicality, physicality and intensity to bring players as close to first-team experience as possible" is not happening. Maybe the technicality but I'm sure that would be gained most by quality coaching.

 

Extending it to U23s has just allowed the Richer Clubs to hoard all the best potential players.

 

Just to add the Football Combination was much closer to that aim as it was young players playing with and against full time professional footballers.

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22 hours ago, Jimmy said:

given that we have seen both Gray and Slimani leave and no replacement come in that's 2 spaces in the 25 man squad that are freed up, Brendan needs to take the 3 or 4 best attacking players from the U23s and promote them, I severely doubt he thought Luke Thomas was ready this time last year, he wasn't even making the bench until he was forced to start when we had literally no other option at LWB.

 

Maybe just maybe one of them will step up if played

I've thought simular, now we can have more subs we could have put a couple of attacking prospects on the bench, there have been games recently where we could have given them the last 10 minutes, I've found forwards are different to other positions where you cant' make a mistake, sometimes they don't look particularly great at U23 but suddenly amoungst the first team it clicks.

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I suspect that the club harboured high hopes that Hirst might make the step up , maybe come into the first team as JV became less involved but that hasn’t worked out . Despite England Caps at teenage level he has shown nothing either at Leeuven or Rotherham 

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1 hour ago, Lesta2014 said:

What happened to Ndukwu? He still with us? Not playing for any side now is he?

Can basically be summarised as having a series of unhelpful and badly timed injuries; just when he should have been breaking through.

 

His loan spell at Southend (in a terrible side, with zero confidence and togetherness) was not encouraging.

 

It remains to be seen if he can bounce back, but you feel his best prospect now is being released and getting himself on the books elsewhere. 

 

Hopefully he can get a loan at some point so someone can take a look at him and then he leaves with our best wishes is my best guess.

 

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2 minutes ago, surrifox said:

I suspect that the club harboured high hopes that Hirst might make the step up , maybe come into the first team as JV became less involved but that hasn’t worked out . Despite England Caps at teenage level he has shown nothing either at Leeuven or Rotherham 

Some Rotherham fans seem to think he's been alright; but you're right; for the outsider looking in, his impact seems to have been minimal.

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41 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

The fact Rodgers has opted to name 2 keepers on the bench in Europe at times this season rather than put one of the academy lads on there is hardly a glowing endorsement for Beaglehole and the lads.

To be fair pretty much every club names 2 keepers on the bench in Europa

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21 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

If that's how an academy is measured as being a top academy then ok. I personally think there's a bit more to it than that but I also don't think it should be dismissed that its as bad as I make out given the 3-4 players that have come through in the last 5 years. 

I’d like to see the coaching improve without sacking those who served us well. The last match wasn’t pleasant watching and you did feel like a different style would give Tav a better chance at improving. It’s been said before but if there are changes I can’t see it happening until covid has ended. Someone here claimed Rudkin sees the academy as his baby. I wonder if that’s why Dimitri left. Wild speculation of course. It’s going to be hard to have a massive shakeup of an academy that is performing well if you go by the England international graduates metric.

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Leshabela and Daley-Campbell on bench the first team.

 

What do you make of that Thai lad we signed, given his age surely he needs to step up to the first team in the summer?

Edited by Jimmy
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