2020/21 Under 23's, U19's, Development ... thread

[davieG]

Some players are just stocking fillers we're not big/rich enough to attract a whole Academy full of potential certainties but we do need some to enable us to put out a team. 

 

So i'll go back to me continuing view that we'd be better off with a Reserve team so that the real potentials play with the 1st team squad players not getting games and for those coming back from injury.

 

We then don't need so many stocking fillers.

[Lesta2014]

Reserve league was great back in the day! Bumper crowds too when first team playing was playing and getting minutes before first team! 

[foxinsocks]

16 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Very good question, we keep players for way too long and I'm not sure what good it does. 

Agree... it just dilutes our focus. Face it ... there is a pathway for thomas barnes hamsa and chillwell.... but they are first team by 21.

Edited 2 February 2021 by foxinsocks

[Ric Flair]

3 minutes ago, foxinsocks said:

Agree... it just dilutes our focus. Face it ... there is a pathway for thomas barnes hamsa and chillwell.... but they are first team by 21.

Dewsbury-Hall is probably the eldest to show signs of being a real player. What's pretty alarming though is why we didn't have him out on loan a few years earlier. I know players develop at different speeds but the whole style of play in our U23's (kick and rush Wimbledon 80's style) is not the platform for technical players to cut their teeth, its lucky he has still managed to develop.

[foxinsocks]

1 minute ago, Ric Flair said:

Dewsbury-Hall is probably the eldest to show signs of being a real player. What's pretty alarming though is why we didn't have him out on loan a few years earlier. I know players develop at different speeds but the whole style of play in our U23's (kick and rush Wimbledon 80's style) is not the platform for technical players to cut their teeth, its lucky he has still managed to develop.

I am hoping next season is kdhs chance in the first team squad... like 2 yrs behind barnes 

[coolhandfox]

22 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Dewsbury-Hall is probably the eldest to show signs of being a real player. What's pretty alarming though is why we didn't have him out on loan a few years earlier. I know players develop at different speeds but the whole style of play in our U23's (kick and rush Wimbledon 80's style) is not the platform for technical players to cut their teeth, its lucky he has still managed to develop.

I think the Academy coaching setup needs a overhaul no point having the one of thr best faculties in the country if you haven't got the some of the best coaches.

 

Our last two management appointments have in Puel and Rodgers have been about passing and possession based football, if that is now the ideology for the future, we need that across all age groups.

Edited 2 February 2021 by coolhandfox

[Ric Flair]

5 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

I think the Academy coaching setup needs a overhaul no point having the one of thr best faculties in the country if you haven't got the some of the best coaches.

 

Our last two management appointments have in Puel and Rodgers have been about passing and possession based football, if that is now the ideology for the future, we need that across all age groups.

Absolutely. It seems absolute madness not to and the only explanation is out of sheer loyalty from Jon Rudin who still very much pulls the strings in the academy.

[coolhandfox]

4 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Absolutely. It seems absolute madness not to and the only explanation is out of sheer loyalty from Jon Rudin who still very much pulls the strings in the academy.

It maybe we have had a few turbulent years with the coming of going of managers, the accident, building the new training ground and a aging squad to overhaul.

 

Maybe now we are in a better place, settled manager, training ground sorted, squad in a good place, he eye will focus on the academy.

 

For all the stick Rudkin has had over the years he's doing a pretty good job as DOF.

[jeffschlupp]

The approach for certain players is just maddening.

 

Leshabela gets on a first team bench in Nov 2018, then signs a 3.5 year deal in Jan 2019.

 

2.5 years into that 3.5 year deal, he still won't have played a single minute of senior football, and a month into next season he is 22 years old.

 

I don't know the reasons for it. But it isn't surprising that our best technical players aren't getting good loan interest when they play in a style that doesn't get the best out of them to interest the scouts.

 

It's been said a million times about the U18s, but why are Nelson and Godsmark-Ford in, but Pennant, Fitzhugh, McAteer not regularly starting games? It's taken Ndukwu, Leshabela, Wright, Shade, Eppiah and Muskwe to be out for two of those to start a game. You are going to get inconsistency from forward players in the youth teams. But you might as well play your most naturally gifted, and the ones that actually did tear it up at lower levels. Man United had no hesitation in pushing Greenwood and Rashford up early, and they have done the same with the next off the line Shola Shoretire.

 

The club quietly dropped 'academy director' from Rudkin's job title a while back. What they need is someone dedicated to overseeing the academy, that isn't an 'academy manager' who used to be head of academy education. They didn't replace head of technical coaching Halajko either. Rudkin is an excellent DoF and head of the first team side of things, but you can't do both jobs. Especially when they should be looking at a complete turnover of coaching staff and a brand new 'top down' philosophy.

[Ric Flair]

21 minutes ago, jeffschlupp said:

The approach for certain players is just maddening.

 

Leshabela gets on a first team bench in Nov 2018, then signs a 3.5 year deal in Jan 2019.

 

2.5 years into that 3.5 year deal, he still won't have played a single minute of senior football, and a month into next season he is 22 years old.

 

I don't know the reasons for it. But it isn't surprising that our best technical players aren't getting good loan interest when they play in a style that doesn't get the best out of them to interest the scouts.

 

It's been said a million times about the U18s, but why are Nelson and Godsmark-Ford in, but Pennant, Fitzhugh, McAteer not regularly starting games? It's taken Ndukwu, Leshabela, Wright, Shade, Eppiah and Muskwe to be out for two of those to start a game. You are going to get inconsistency from forward players in the youth teams. But you might as well play your most naturally gifted, and the ones that actually did tear it up at lower levels. Man United had no hesitation in pushing Greenwood and Rashford up early, and they have done the same with the next off the line Shola Shoretire.

 

The club quietly dropped 'academy director' from Rudkin's job title a while back. What they need is someone dedicated to overseeing the academy, that isn't an 'academy manager' who used to be head of academy education. They didn't replace head of technical coaching Halajko either. Rudkin is an excellent DoF and head of the first team side of things, but you can't do both jobs. Especially when they should be looking at a complete turnover of coaching staff and a brand new 'top down' philosophy.

Very well said. Rudkin as a DOF seems to have grown in to the role well. I am baffled by the reluctance to shake up the academy, the plans to change it last summer when Peake retired and Beaglehole supposedly stepping aside from the U23's only for that to be overturned is odd is it not? 

[Guest SO1]

15 hours ago, Aleksz said:

How on earth is Brendan letting this style of play happen? It's awful to watch.

That's a question for Rudkin. Its his job to straighten this out and move it in the right direction. I read some quote or anecdote from Rodgers saying we didn't have a player in the Academy who could step up and fill in to Hamza's place in the squad. Telling. Starting to smell bad around here. I'm hoping it has to do with Covid and money and not something else. Like incompetence.

Incompetence makes the train stop or start going backwards. Having to sell players for cash for squad fillers is not going to work. We need every cent we can scrape together to buy goals. 

If the Academy fails the whole club fails.       

[RowlattsFox]

I don't think having an excellent academy is easy, I think producing Chilwell, Barnes, Choudhury and now Thomas in recent years is not a bad return but its mixed in with a lot of average footballers who stay longer than needed. Not every player will make it of course, some will have decent lower league careers and others will drop out all together. The development league is pointless for me, gives coaches who can't get real football management jobs some self-importance, and I don't know exactly how much they get paid but I reckon some youngsters are earning decent money and living a footballers life having achieved nothing (This might not be true, but just an impression I get sometimes) No urgency to get out on loan, cases of players leaving the professional game to play under 23 football etc. At least with Tavares he is saying, offer me a route or I'll try my luck elsewhere. 

 

We've seen that good players will come through, and they'll often by pass much of development league football. 

[Foxy-Lady]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

Very well said. Rudkin as a DOF seems to have grown in to the role well. I am baffled by the reluctance to shake up the academy, the plans to change it last summer when Peake retired and Beaglehole supposedly stepping aside from the U23's only for that to be overturned is odd is it not? 

I questioned Rudkin's appointment several years ago based on his experience, knowledge and micro-management style.......but to be fair to him, I think he's done an outstanding job in recent years for our football club and i have no problem accepting the fact that i was wrong about his ability to do the DoF role. Full credit where it is due...!

 

However, questions remain over his loyalty to Beaglehole and his team who he has protected for too many years....probably as a result of his previous relationship with him when he was Academy Director.

The demands and expectations of what is expected of our Academy have moved on a long way since Rudkin was in charge (partly as a result of Rudkins success as DoF ironically!) and it is no longer sufficient just to keep doing what Beaglehole has always done and playing a lower league style of football (and NO....I don't think Beaglehole deserves the credit for the development of Barnes & Chilwell!)

 

I don't think Rudkin has ever truly "handed over the keys" to the Academy and his appointment of Crawley as Academy manager 3/4 years ago (a guy with NO footballing background) merely highlighted the fact that Rudkin still wanted "his YES men running his Academy" regardless of whether they were the best people for the job.  Until Rudkin stops protecting those who should no longer be in those key roles at the Academy, we will continue to have this well-worn debate...!! 

 

(PS i heard it said several years ago by those "in the know" that when Rudkin was appointed DoF, he was reluctant to step away from the Academy Dir role as that was his baby and would hopefully be his fallback position if the DoF role didn't work out for him. 

Well.....he's done a bloody good job as DoF so maybe now is the time for him to let go of the reins and have an overhaul of those who have been there for too long!)

[Kilworthfox]

2 hours ago, Foxy-Lady said:

I questioned Rudkin's appointment several years ago based on his experience, knowledge and micro-management style.......but to be fair to him, I think he's done an outstanding job in recent years for our football club and i have no problem accepting the fact that i was wrong about his ability to do the DoF role. Full credit where it is due...!

 

However, questions remain over his loyalty to Beaglehole and his team who he has protected for too many years....probably as a result of his previous relationship with him when he was Academy Director.

The demands and expectations of what is expected of our Academy have moved on a long way since Rudkin was in charge (partly as a result of Rudkins success as DoF ironically!) and it is no longer sufficient just to keep doing what Beaglehole has always done and playing a lower league style of football (and NO....I don't think Beaglehole deserves the credit for the development of Barnes & Chilwell!)

 

I don't think Rudkin has ever truly "handed over the keys" to the Academy and his appointment of Crawley as Academy manager 3/4 years ago (a guy with NO footballing background) merely highlighted the fact that Rudkin still wanted "his YES men running his Academy" regardless of whether they were the best people for the job.  Until Rudkin stops protecting those who should no longer be in those key roles at the Academy, we will continue to have this well-worn debate...!! 

 

(PS i heard it said several years ago by those "in the know" that when Rudkin was appointed DoF, he was reluctant to step away from the Academy Dir role as that was his baby and would hopefully be his fallback position if the DoF role didn't work out for him. 

Well.....he's done a bloody good job as DoF so maybe now is the time for him to let go of the reins and have an overhaul of those who have been there for too long!)

Interesting post.

 

Friendships are more important than ability. Until the longstanding staff move on I don't see this changing.

[Incognito]

At what point will it become necessary for Top or Susan Whelan to intervene and sort out the academy?

 

As has been said by others, Rudkin has done a great job as DoF (against seemingly everyone's expectations). But he is doing no favours for anyone by keeping Beaglehole in a job with the 23's. There needs to be a coherent plan in place where from 1st team down, they all follow a similar ethos and pathway. Even under Micky Adams ffs did the old reserve side play 4-4-2 to mirror his first team.

 

For every Chilwell, Thomas and Choudhury, we are getting a Ndukwu, Elder and Muskwe. Nothing against the latter three, I hope all go on to have fine careers, but if they are not good enough for us then it serves them better to be released to move on to find football elsewhere akin to their levels. Elder seemingly has in League One with Hull, and Muskwe is doing ok with Wycombe. I dare say Ndukwu may have to drop to the National League based on his prior loan experiences. In my humble opinion, there are not enough KDH's or Vardy's (yes, he developed later elsewhere) to justify keeping young players knocking around until they are 23 with no prospect of first team football.

 

Bit of a ramble, but in essence the whole structure below first team level needs streamlining. That way, the focus can go on those most likely to make it with us, rather than farming players who will eventually go on to be stalwarts at Kidderminster Harriers and Stalybridge Celtic.

[Jimmy]

given that we have seen both Gray and Slimani leave and no replacement come in that's 2 spaces in the 25 man squad that are freed up, Brendan needs to take the 3 or 4 best attacking players from the U23s and promote them, I severely doubt he thought Luke Thomas was ready this time last year, he wasn't even making the bench until he was forced to start when we had literally no other option at LWB.

 

Maybe just maybe one of them will step up if played

[jamesmilner]

Academy players , Chilwell and Barnes have both gained international caps, which is great achievement . Could someone point out which other club has achieved this lately ? It's doing okay in what its supposed to do IMO . I also think that time is needed,  to give the influence of the new facilities to kick in . With Covid about i can not see any changes being made until a later date . 

[Pliskin]

I don’t know if anyone picked up on Rodgers comment “I’ve had a look at the academy and there’s no one suitable there at this time” in terms of attacking midfielders is this something to be concerned about?

[Ric Flair]

26 minutes ago, jamesmilner said:

Academy players , Chilwell and Barnes have both gained international caps, which is great achievement . Could someone point out which other club has achieved this lately ? It's doing okay in what its supposed to do IMO . I also think that time is needed,  to give the influence of the new facilities to kick in . With Covid about i can not see any changes being made until a later date . 

Whats your opinion on the decision to overturn Beaglehole stepping aside from running the U23's? Its strange. 

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, Incognito said:

Bit of a ramble, but in essence the whole structure below first team level needs streamlining. That way, the focus can go on those most likely to make it with us, rather than farming players who will eventually go on to be stalwarts at Kidderminster Harriers and Stalybridge Celtic.

....whats wrong with playing for Kiddi!!!

My cousin use to play for them, quality on the ball, just did not have the personality to push himself to the fore.

[Ric Flair]

34 minutes ago, jamesmilner said:

Academy players , Chilwell and Barnes have both gained international caps, which is great achievement . Could someone point out which other club has achieved this lately ? It's doing okay in what its supposed to do IMO . I also think that time is needed,  to give the influence of the new facilities to kick in . With Covid about i can not see any changes being made until a later date . 

Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Man City Southampton, Man Utd off the top of my head

[Guest SO1]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

given that we have seen both Gray and Slimani leave and no replacement come in that's 2 spaces in the 25 man squad that are freed up, Brendan needs to take the 3 or 4 best attacking players from the U23s and promote them, I severely doubt he thought Luke Thomas was ready this time last year, he wasn't even making the bench until he was forced to start when we had literally no other option at LWB.

 

Maybe just maybe one of them will step up if played

Will everyone give Brendan a pass if we lose playing those players? With 3 trophies on the line still? Would imagine that some of those players are training with the first team and Rodgers is watching. If not there's a reason.

[Jimmy]

Just now, SO1 said:

Will everyone give Brendan a pass if we lose playing those players? With 3 trophies on the line still? Would imagine that some of those players are training with the first team and Rodgers is watching. If not there's a reason

didn't say he had to start them but it would be better that having 5 defenders and a dm or 4 defenders and 2 dms on our bench, if nothing else they will benefit from the experience of working and preparing with the first team

[Foxxed]

20 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Man City Southampton, Man Utd off the top of my head

So we’re amongst the top academies in the country? I would like to see the academy improve, and although we have played well before, the style of football last night was poor. Yet it’s hard to condemn an academy that’s amongst the best in the country.

[jeffschlupp]

1 hour ago, jamesmilner said:

Academy players , Chilwell and Barnes have both gained international caps, which is great achievement . Could someone point out which other club has achieved this lately ? It's doing okay in what its supposed to do IMO . I also think that time is needed,  to give the influence of the new facilities to kick in . With Covid about i can not see any changes being made until a later date . 

Chilwell and Barnes were not technically brilliant players in the U23s, and I think it's been well documented that our graduates from the academy were heavily reliant on their physical attributes at least at first to stand out.

 

The players we have produced is a positive, but there is potential to do better. And I think that players will be ready much quicker for the first team if they play a style that mimics that first team. Look at how long it took Chilwell to adapt to the Premier League, Hamza still isn't there for me, Barnes had a quiet first 6-12 months even after loans away. You might say everyone needs a period of adaptation but I would say it's likely to be quicker if the players are used to play Rodgers' football rather than long ball nonsense.