Fulham H Post Match Thread

[Steve Earle]

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

I know I'm an irrational character at times but since last seasons capitulation and having time to reflect on what may have gone wrong, I managed to banish any resentment of the collapse. It was still an unbelievable season for the club given we were never troubling the top 5 before Rodgers arrived. 

 

My expectations for the team this season was to try and compete in both Europe and the league and if we hit a difficult patch, to at least show some proactiveness in trying new approaches to games to evoke a change. Rodgers and the team have done this brilliantly this season, especially considering the injuries we have had. I think how Rodgers completely changed his philosophy of the game to try and get some results against teams who comfortably had our number last season is admirable and proved he isn't as arrogant and stubborn as some have him pegged.

 

However, last night is borderline unforgivable. I don't say this lightly when I say that decision to pick that personnel against such poor opposition at home was gross negligence and anyone who stuck up for it prior to kick off is a prat. I get that the reactionary mob on here can be tiresome to read whenever things don't go our way but there are occasions and decision like last night where they cannot be defended and we are allowed to get angry and question things. The wait and see approach only goes so far, it's like someone lobbing your young kid in the sea and not being able to react in case they somehow manage to stay alive and get to shore. It was clear lunacy from the off and you can't defend shit like that I'm sorry.

 

Should 5 defenders and 4 central midfielders have done better than what they did in that opening 45 minutes yesterday? Absolutely but it was complete lunacy to pick that side. People defending it because we were going to face a low block, are you saying the only way to counteract that is to go pure Gary Megson and try and create some turgid equilibrium? I've never ever seen Barcelona, Man City, Juventus, Liverpool, Bayern, Real deploy such a hideously negative side. Maybe thats what they are missing out on when they sometimes fail to break down defensive teams. What I find highly amusing though is Fulham who we perceived to be so unpalatebly defensive, seemed to pick a more attacking side than we did and found it so surprisingly easy to launch attacks as we had players ill equipped at trying to force the play themselves. 

 

It's a myth we can't break teams down at home, this was something we used to struggle with under Puel in a 4-2-3-1 where the defensive midfielders were unable to get the ball forward quickly enough to create space for the wide players. Go through the results under Rodgers and it's a who's who of crap teams who we put to the sword in 2019 bar Newcastle at the back end of the 2018/19 season and Norwich after the 8 game winning run in December. Then as the slump started to take hold we still put away dog shit like West Ham, Villa, Palace and Sheffield Utd. All teams last season who might come under the realms of teams who would come here and sit back. Incidentally the only home game against inferior opposition that we faced from January through to July who might come and sit back was Brighton and we picked a horribly negative side that day with 2 defensive midfielders and low and behold we created absolutely nothing and were lucky to get away with a point. 

 

Lets be clear here, this wasn't even us only fielding 1 winger and attacker and going with Maddison out wide like Rodgers had an obsession with at the start of last season. This was 5 defenders and 4 central midfielders, I keep thinking i've taken LSD. So I refuse to accept any excuses for last night's considered decision to put that disgrace of a team out and I'm even more disgusted that Brendan Rodgers hasn't apologised. It will take some time for me to get over this, but as long as he never ever makes such a cardinal sin again then I will eventually forget about it on a day to day basis. What a complete waste of an opportunity to maintain the pace with the top sides and it's frivolous and bizarre decisions like this that create disillusion in the team and confidence can drop which we saw last season and it doesn't end well. 

 

Players can get fined wages, I hope managers can too. If so, he deserves the maximum fine.

 

I'm a prat, and so are many of my friends.

 

Enjoyed the post by and large @Ric Flair , but 'borderline unforgivable' 'gross negligence' and 'clear lunacy'?

 

Myth or no, there does now exist a template for winning at the KP. We need to set up better at home to Brighton in two weeks than we have done against West Ham, Villa & Fulham. It doesn't matter hugely to me what the formation is or the players available. But we do need to move the ball a lot quicker, be more aggressive and show real intensity from the get go.

 

  

[Finnegan]

57 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Good post.

 

But, be fair, spill the beans, and screenshot your Ignore List - to give those on it time to get the opportunity to change your perception of them around..

 

If it makes anyone who may or may not feel better, there's about forty odd names on it. 

 

Tbf, some are perfectly decent people that I just know I'll argue with 90% of the time and I just can't be arsed anything. 

 

It's more because I lack self control than because I think they're actually willy pullers which is the case with HPF. 

 

[Danny Clender]

[StanSP]

Worth it. 

 

 

[fuchsntf]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

So what I said was absolute tosh and then you go on writing a paragraph confirming what I said ? That this problem is something we are now consistently seeing in Rodgers reign. I’m as confused as scooby doo. 

I reckon we are all confused at the moment....We should all excuse each other......cos Good & Silly things together are happening ..!!

 

The tosh bit..was we have always had generations of  these performances, nothing to do with Rodgers/Any Single manager...Sometimes in fact more

often IMO the players ( are Not robots) but players not taking the  Challenge in & go through Lazy mundane basics.

Its these Type of games that players change , they were Not Adventures enough & didnt push out the preverbial boat..!

 

Different eras, different players, ,in the end does the different quality of this generation..Skill & Mindset Take the club onto the Next plans & level,

Bigger picture, under Pearson, Ranieri,Puel and Rodgers we have grown and such performances as last night have been less frequent,

Hence our performances having us competing above Top 10 & Knocking on Top 4 door...

But jesus...These Type of outings are still Bloody frustrating..!!

[filbertway]

I'm still angry, this is up there with the Bournemouth last season for me. Showing the same weaknesses that were apparent last season.

 

If the system wasn't at fault then why did he change it at half time? He's so full of **** it's unbelievable. I'd struggle to accept that from Micky Adams, never mind from the 3rd or 4th highest paid manager in the league.

Edited 1 December 2020 by filbertway

[KFS]

28 minutes ago, filbertway said:

I'm still angry, this is up there with the Bournemouth last season for me. Showing the same weaknesses that were apparent last season.

 

If the system wasn't at fault then why did he change it at half time? He's so full of **** it's unbelievable. I'd struggle to accept that from Micky Adams, never mind from the 3rd or 4th highest paid manager in the league.

This.

 

Thought I would be over it after a kip last night but it just made it worse. If we fall short of an achievement in the league this year we’ll be pointing straight to yesterday. Mentality and bottle is shocking. 

[Ric Flair]

2 hours ago, AKCJ said:

I just don't see what changes could have been made that would have made such a difference?

 

You're talking about maybe something like Praet out for Under or Barnes. Even then it's splitting hairs, cases to be made for any of the three. Neither Fuchs nor Thomas are capable of playing as a left back in a Rodgers team and I don't think Justin is capable as a right back. Only really because of this ridiculous injury record and the emergence of Fofana have we had to resort to wing backs. Also because we simply don't own a right winger with an ounce of genuine quality on the ball.

We have gotten by with players like Justin and Mendy but I honestly just think they're being found out. Fulham just copied Liverpool's style of having their midfield press ours and they just folded. Every time Fulham had the ball, we were just jogging and every time we had the ball there was an obvious desire to win the ball back.

 

As I pointed out last night. We're 4th, we have 4 absolutely massive players to return (case to be made that all four get into 95% of the teams in the league). Lets just ride this period out. We have Sheffield Utd next week, we're already qualified in Europe and then the week after next we can look at bringing some of these big players back into the team for the Christmas period.

 

What team would you have played yesterday?

Maybe I place too much emphasis on finer details but surely you can see the attacking difference between playing 5 defenders and 4 central midfielders in whatever system is being asked than if you play the same system but you have 3 defenders, 2 wingback, 2 central midfielders, a number 10 and 2 strikers/forwards? Of course there is a difference between Dennis Praet playing that role or Harvey Barnes or Cengiz Ünder. Would that have made the difference between the abomination of a performance we saw last night? Who knows, we were so crap like we were in the 1st half vs Braga but that isn't reason enough to accept a team selection compromising of 9 non attack minded outfield players, 8 if you count Maddison as an ACM which he once used to be but now not quite so sure. 

 

The key is balance, crap performances can often occur from a disjointed set up and although we have the possibility for some erratic results given the sheer amount of games we are playing and injuries, thats again no excuse for being so limited from the off. It would be like sending Lewis Hamilton out in a Lada against a load of birds in their Fiat 500's and then being staggered at the result. 

 

I disagree that neither Fuchs, Justin nor Thomas can play as a full back in a Rodgers team, Barnes had some of his best games for us last season with Fuchs or Justin behind him in a 4-1-4-1 system. If I remember rightly we barely lost a home game that Chilwell didn't play in before lockdown. But let's just say we carried on with 3 at the back, I'd have gone with Justin in the back 3 and Albrighton at RWB as well as the aforementioned omission of Praet for Barnes. Is that splitting hairs? Albrighton gets more assists than Justin and Harvey Barnes absolutely scores and creates more goals than Dennis Praet. Football is often about fine margins.

 

Overall I'm delighted with this season, but I will not tolerate that behaviour from our manager last night, I hope learns his lesson. Our home form used to be exceptional against poor teams, I'm fascinated where Rodgers has seen a fault with this and had to act so turgidly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Les-TA-Jon]

1 hour ago, filbertway said:

I'm still angry, this is up there with the Bournemouth last season for me. Showing the same weaknesses that were apparent last season.

 

If the system wasn't at fault then why did he change it at half time? He's so full of **** it's unbelievable. I'd struggle to accept that from Micky Adams, never mind from the 3rd or 4th highest paid manager in the league.

It's possible for the system to be 'right' in the first half, but poor play put you behind, and then being 0-2 necessitating a change. Just because he changed it doesn't necessarily mean the system was wrong. 

 

We were awful last night, no doubt. But there's been plenty of recent examples of that system serving us well - all were backed up by much, much better performances. And even last night, the Youri/Wes chance goes in and I think we have a very different evening. 

[Ric Flair]

6 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

It's possible for the system to be 'right' in the first half, but poor play put you behind, and then being 0-2 necessitating a change. Just because he changed it doesn't necessarily mean the system was wrong. 

 

We were awful last night, no doubt. But there's been plenty of recent examples of that system serving us well - all were backed up by much, much better performances. And even last night, the Youri/Wes chance goes in and I think we have a very different evening. 

AAAAARRRGGGHHHHHH its not the fcukin system, its the personnel of the said system. You could play 10 defenders in a 0-0-10 but that doesn't mean it would be very attacking because defenders aren't attackers by trade. Fine, play 3 at the back, even at home vs muck like Fulham but don't field it with 5 defenders and 4 central midfielders. It is likely to lead to very little attacking play and given we have been very error prone at the back in recent weeks its inviting the very thing you don't want to happen where a team who come with the low block, pinches a goal and then its even harder to break down with piss all attacking players on the pitch.

 

You could eat a steak with a spoon if you were determined enough and it was tender enough, doesn't mean you'd openly choose that would you? 

[FoxinNotts]

Sack the board

[Les-TA-Jon]

4 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

AAAAARRRGGGHHHHHH its not the fcukin system, its the personnel of the said system. You could play 10 defenders in a 0-0-10 but that doesn't mean it would be very attacking because defenders aren't attackers by trade. Fine, play 3 at the back, even at home vs muck like Fulham but don't field it with 5 defenders and 4 central midfielders. It is likely to lead to very little attacking play and given we have been very error prone at the back in recent weeks its inviting the very thing you don't want to happen where a team who come with the low block, pinches a goal and then its even harder to break down with piss all attacking players on the pitch.

 

You could eat a steak with a spoon if you were determined enough and it was tender enough, doesn't mean you'd openly choose that would you? 

So you've hated all the other times we've played 5 at the back this season, even during all the wins? 

 

All I'm saying is, obviously it's not quite as simple as 'the system is to blame' OR 'the performances are to blame'

 

We played a similar lineup vs Wolves did we not? Initially I thought that lineup was negative with Barnes and Under both on the bench, but it made sense since neither would have room to run into. The same applied last night. And we saw it too, because Barnes and Under had very little influence on the game. (Yes I know Barnes scored and Under had a shot - but neither had the chances or space to run at Fulham). 

 

Had we scored the Youri/Wes chance, it's a very different game. If Maddison, Praet, Youri, Mendy all had better games we could have got something from the game. In that sense, Rodgers' criticism that we weren't at our level or aggressive enough is correct. 

 

I think where the game fell down was that we set up expecting Fulham to park the bus and they simply didn't. Then we had poor performances all over, and committed 2 errors that both happened to lead to goals. 

[AKCJ]

35 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Maybe I place too much emphasis on finer details but surely you can see the attacking difference between playing 5 defenders and 4 central midfielders in whatever system is being asked than if you play the same system but you have 3 defenders, 2 wingback, 2 central midfielders, a number 10 and 2 strikers/forwards? Of course there is a difference between Dennis Praet playing that role or Harvey Barnes or Cengiz Ünder. Would that have made the difference between the abomination of a performance we saw last night? Who knows, we were so crap like we were in the 1st half vs Braga but that isn't reason enough to accept a team selection compromising of 9 non attack minded outfield players, 8 if you count Maddison as an ACM which he once used to be but now not quite so sure. 

 

The key is balance, crap performances can often occur from a disjointed set up and although we have the possibility for some erratic results given the sheer amount of games we are playing and injuries, thats again no excuse for being so limited from the off. It would be like sending Lewis Hamilton out in a Lada against a load of birds in their Fiat 500's and then being staggered at the result. 

 

I disagree that neither Fuchs, Justin nor Thomas can play as a full back in a Rodgers team, Barnes had some of his best games for us last season with Fuchs or Justin behind him in a 4-1-4-1 system. If I remember rightly we barely lost a home game that Chilwell didn't play in before lockdown. But let's just say we carried on with 3 at the back, I'd have gone with Justin in the back 3 and Albrighton at RWB as well as the aforementioned omission of Praet for Barnes. Is that splitting hairs? Albrighton gets more assists than Justin and Harvey Barnes absolutely scores and creates more goals than Dennis Praet. Football is often about fine margins.

 

Overall I'm delighted with this season, but I will not tolerate that behaviour from our manager last night, I hope learns his lesson. Our home form used to be exceptional against poor teams, I'm fascinated where Rodgers has seen a fault with this and had to act so turgidly.

 

 

I don't think i'd have even bothered watching if Albrighton played. He has been horrendous for far too long now. The occasional good cross doesn't make up for that fact. I think Justin offers more going forward.

 

Before yesterday, Harvey Barnes had just 1 more goal contribution in the league than Praet. Despite playing about 150 minutes more. He's a limited winger with extremely erratic shooting and passing, essentially the right footed Under.

 

I think you're going far too overboard. Praet, Maddison and Tielemans are hardly "defensive" players. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

I cannot understand why you seem happy to put that result firmly on the formation of players. If those players do their jobs properly then we win comfortably and get to have the likes of Barnes/Under coming off the bench to really stretch Fulham.

 

In fact, if Fofana taps that in from 5 yards I think we win comfortably.

 

We lost the game because of basic errors of players pushing ridiculously high up the field, sheer laziness and a desperately slow tempo.

Edited 1 December 2020 by AKCJ

[Ric Flair]

4 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

So you've hated all the other times we've played 5 at the back this season, even during all the wins? 

 

All I'm saying is, obviously it's not quite as simple as 'the system is to blame' OR 'the performances are to blame'

 

We played a similar lineup vs Wolves did we not? Initially I thought that lineup was negative with Barnes and Under both on the bench, but it made sense since neither would have room to run into. The same applied last night. And we saw it too, because Barnes and Under had very little influence on the game. (Yes I know Barnes scored and Under had a shot - but neither had the chances or space to run at Fulham). 

 

Had we scored the Youri/Wes chance, it's a very different game. If Maddison, Praet, Youri, Mendy all had better games we could have got something from the game. In that sense, Rodgers' criticism that we weren't at our level or aggressive enough is correct. 

 

I think where the game fell down was that we set up expecting Fulham to park the bus and they simply didn't. Then we had poor performances all over, and committed 2 errors that both happened to lead to goals. 

Funny you should ask this John as yesterday morning I was arguing with folk who hate 3 at the back and posed the question of whether they accepted the superb results and performances against opposition we have notoriously struggled against (Man City and Arsenal away and Wolves at home + Leeds away and Braga at home being stunning performances and results).

 

The reason I am so angry about last night is the personnel he deployed against an abysmal team like Fulham was beyond words. I understood the reasons against Wolves as they are a pig of a team to play against and we have seldom had any joy against them, both home and away last season we were very lucky to escape with 2 nil nil draws. But there is no way I'm stomaching the same personnel and set up at HOME to a team in the relegation zone when we have consistently destroyed teams like that under Rodgers. Can others not understand this? This isn't a criticism of 3 at the back as a system, I like it and especially against the sorts of teams we have struggled against in the past away from home and occasionally at home but I'm not having what was served up last night John, not one bit. We had a more negative team selection than Fulham as some perverted way of trying to counteract a low block? It honestly doesn't make any sense, there's a reason the likes of Real, Barca, Liverpool etc don't do the same because if they did they'd not need to spend millions and millions on attackers if that's the way to overcome the majority of the crap you have to play domestically.

[Ric Flair]

1 minute ago, AKCJ said:

 

I don't think i'd have even bothered watching if Albrighton played. He has been horrendous for far too long now. The occasional good cross doesn't make up for that fact. I think Justin offers more going forward.

 

Before yesterday, Harvey Barnes had just 1 more goal contribution in the league than Praet. Despite playing about 150 minutes more. He's a limited winger with extremely erratic shooting and passing, essentially the right footed Under.

 

I think you're going far too overboard. Praet, Maddison and Tielemans are hardly "defensive" players. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

I cannot understand why you seem happy to put that result firmly on the formation of players. If those players do their jobs properly then we win comfortably and get to have the likes of Barnes/Under coming off the bench to really stretch Fulham.

 

In fact, if Fofana taps that in from 5 yards I think we win comfortably.

 

We lost the game because of basic errors of players pushing ridiculously high up the field.

I think this is where we'll end this discussion, thanks. Absolutely wild. 🙃

[Bazly]

Timmy has moved up to be our top ranked player for the season from way back two games ago, without kicking a ball.

[deanolegend1989]

It’s quite simple really. BRs tactics worked absolutely spot on.

He set up the game to lose the game and we lost. Not one bit of that game suprised me but one thing that did suprise me was how obvious it was and yet BR still somehow played that system at home to what must of been the best team in the world.

 

I have never been more disappointed than last night.

Yes we’ve been relegated, yes we lost in Cardiff and yes Deeney day but all of them we were underdogs and performed as good and above what we could. It was hard but there was an air of proudness and fight and we achieved the best we could with those squads.

 

This is different, this team is so talented and it’s utterly painful to watch it all being flushed away and underachieving by a supposed ‘top manager’ overcomplicating the most obvious situations and making the most obvious mistakes you will ever see.

 

I don’t care if we finish 1st or 17th I just want him to set us up in the most simplistic way.

4141

Kasper

Ricardo Fofana Evans Castange

             Ndidi Tielemens

                Maddison

       Under Vardy Barnes 

Just set us up like that, with injuries forcing rotation , fine, but keep the bloody system that fits our style and players for god sakes. 
Play that team and if we lose then we were not good enough!

What HURTS most, is we still don’t know how good we are because he doesn’t let us fulfill our potential and that’s extremely sad.

[Lambert09]

Apologies if I’ve missed debate on this earlier in the thread but what are peoples thoughts on the penalty? 
 

That type of contact happens all the time and I’m not convinced that should really be a penalty. I understand watching it in slow motion why it was given but is it really a penalty?

 

Imo he was waiting for any contact and was always planning to hit the deck. I think he’s been a little hard done by. 
 

without var , I don’t think we would have heard a lot about it. Because I’ not convinced there was enough contact. 
 

[Hales]

I just still cannot get my head around the fact at home we didn't go out firing and looking to kill the game early. If players are tired then surely go out attack the game and kill it then sub those players off and not play softly softly and try and put on the subs second half and try and win it from 60 minutes. It makes no sense Brendan at all!!!! I am still annoyed about this which doesnt normally happen 🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️

[StanSP]

16 minutes ago, Lambert09 said:

Apologies if I’ve missed debate on this earlier in the thread but what are peoples thoughts on the penalty? 
 

That type of contact happens all the time and I’m not convinced that should really be a penalty. I understand watching it in slow motion why it was given but is it really a penalty?

 

Imo he was waiting for any contact and was always planning to hit the deck. I think he’s been a little hard done by. 
 

without var , I don’t think we would have heard a lot about it. Because I’ not convinced there was enough contact. 
 

I think it needs to be watched again then. It was a definite penalty.

 

Amateur play from Fuchs. The ball was bouncing towards the touchline, along with himself and the Fulham player. Swung a boot at it, missed it and impeded their player.

 

It's definitely a penalty.

 

Imagine it was their defender on Vardy. We'd be screaming blue murder as to why it wasn't given in real time.

[AKCJ]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

I think this is where we'll end this discussion, thanks. Absolutely wild. 🙃

[Ric Flair]

7 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Anyone got the Nigel Pearson ostrich GIF? 

[filbertway]

The wolves game first half we had 3 shots, 2 of which were Vardy penalties.

 

As wolves pushed on it suited us more as we could counter attack.

 

Playing a defensive shape with defensive players against a team that will sit back will only increase the oppositions chances of success. 

 

That game was crying out for a team full of players that can make something happen. I cant grasp how people dont understand this and I really dont understand Rodgers thoughts. I'd love to know what they are

[Wymsey]

Have a feeling that Rodgers had been, unnecessarily, experimenting with certain tactics.

[Rigga]

We had lost last nights game as soon as the team was picked...

Rodgers moans he has no defenders then picks 5 instead of 4.

If ever there was a game to make the pitch bigger and stretch the game it was home v Fulham.. yet we had 3 wingers on the bench..

He says we had a young team out...we had 4 players over 30

he said we had tired players..Barnes isn’t getting tired by sitting in the bench the past two games..

when BR came to the club, his talks were refreshing and informative.. Now, it’s just the same old excuses and belief that we have played well in games when the reality is we have been abysmal..

we have the odd worldie game followed by a succession of below par, no desire slow uninspiring performances.

he just can not motivate this bunch it seems.. we don’t press any

more , we are happy to let the opposition have the ball and pass through us at ease.. we don’t create like we used to.

we are seeing too many performances like the last 2 months of the season which let’s be honest was relegation form..

mid table finish for us this season..10/11th