Choudhury

[hejammy]

3 hours ago, Scotch said:

Because Barnes has built up good will with large runs of consistent and good performances, Hamza hasn't. Ofcourse you can argue that Hamza hasn't had the chance to given that he's not had a consistent run in the team but that's another differance between the two. Barnes played his way to a regular first team spot, Hamza never has. 

Not sure what this has got to do with anything really. So Barnes can have multiple poor games but because he has good performances in his bank we can't say anything against the guy but Hamza starts one game after such a long time, does his job well but people can still slate him? I think people are spoilt, we lose an Ndidi and people expect another Ndidi. We're not Man City, so come back to reality. Hamza did a decent job (nowhere near what Ndidi does) but what choice do we have? It's obvious Hamza isn't a first team player. But what do we do when we lose a first team player? Don't slate him because he's not as good as Ndidi, accept he's a squad player and actually he did OK yesterday considering the circumstances. Now back to Barnes, he's a first team player so playing shite so far this season is not acceptable and madders has been dropped because of it. 

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

I find this quite ironic really given that most of the people showering unwavering praise on Hamza are just seduced by the fact he ran around a lot and are either unwilling or unable to look at the consequences of that. 

 

Credit where its due: he gave his absolute everything yesterday and had one of his better games for City. If everyone had played with the desire and the effort that Hamza did, we'd have played much better as a team. 

 

But playing him in a two man midfield with two very attack minded wide midfielders and a "10" that isn't exactly Okazaki in the defensive work rate department was extremely reckless of Rodgers and we paid for it. 

 

With the exception of two very accurate counters, one coming completely out of nowhere (Nacho's goal) we were dominated for near a full 90 minutes by a team objectively worse than us on paper. 

 

A big part of this was the fact that Youri Tielemans (who admittedly is in slightly off form atm) spent most of the game playing as a 1 vs a 3. He was completely over run in the middle and forced to sit and play deeper and deeper as the game went on because Hamza was off the leash. 

 

The work Choudhury was doing looks great superficially, it's eye catching to see a player charging off all over the place all blood and thunder. But what's less immediately perceptible but just as important is all the holes you leave behind you when you play like that (particularly when the whole team isn't doing it.)

 

Palace had his number all game long. They just passed it around him and then advanced the play in to the space he left behind. And it's not like Youri has blistering pace to cover. 

 

As much as I don't like to shovel on the criticism because, at the end of the day, Hamza gave it his all and someone's best effort is really the best we can demand of them. I mean when I say that if everyone matched his enthusiasm we'd claw ourselves out of this funk far more easily. 

 

But if we're going to do that, he can't be on the pitch. Not unless he's part of an otherwise structured 3 man midfield in which he's the wild card. The beauty of Ngolo Kante is that he knows when to do the crazy mad press but he also knows when to sit in the pocket in front of the centre backs and wait to pick the ball off. Hamza has never really learned to not just charge wildly after it and the times he DOES hold position he's frequently in the wrong place. 

 

And I'm definitely not a hater, I really like Choudhury, I've not wanted a Leicester player to succeed this much in years. Of all of our academy graduates to make the first team he's got the most cult hero potential and a lot of that is because of his work rate and aggression. But sadly he's never really developed much more other than that. 

....is it therefore a lack of coaching or the inability for the player to learn!!!

  Just reading your post suggest that coaching should have alleviated his shortfalls but it also would come down to reading the game, irrespective of the effort he puts in.

   I do not feel him charging around the pitch does him any favours but also his speed over a short distance is invaluable,as cover to the midfield and defence.

   I would love to see him patrolling in front of the defence and I am somewhat surprised at his short passing ability, when I  watched in play previously, it was the mainstay of his game, in keeping things ticking over.

[fuchsntf]

14 hours ago, baldeagle said:

Got to agree with this… lost count of how many times he gave the ball away , got caught on the ball not to mention kicking it out of play under no pressure on 2 occasions . But he ran about a lot so that’s ok . Obviously he’ll be rusty and that’s understandable but like you thought he was dreadful mostly . 

Tielemans put it out 3-4 times...No Need to Chase every mistake...Vardy, Barnes,Lookman, wasted various opportunities...

What Hamaz did..was pressed, chased, & broke up play....Hed Play 2 decent balls, then 3 Bad ones...

In the Next few weeks, we are going to see a lot of him....accept it..!!  And encourage the guy..!

If Soumare gets the DM job, he wont play 90 min every game...One reason Why I Dont understand fans not seeing, many of Rodgers subs...

At present there hasn t been One ideal situation....injury,knock, tiring...& 8 players well off-form.

[Countryfox]

Don’t see the point in saying “he played better than most “ or “others were worse “  it’s not about them ..  most of the team are way below par at the moment but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for him to be the same ..  games like this are his big chance to shine but sadly he doesn’t cus he’s (for whatever reason) just not up to it. 

[hejammy]

1 minute ago, Countryfox said:

Don’t see the point in saying “he played better than most “ or “others were worse “  it’s not about them ..  most of the team are way below par at the moment but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for him to be the same ..  games like this are his big chance to shine but sadly he doesn’t cus he’s (for whatever reason) just not up to it. 

I think the point people are making is that why is he being singled out if others were equally bad or worse? Then the point of "he played better than most" is valid. 

[Finnegan]

8 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

How do we explain how the same players started the previous two seasons playing fast flowing fluid football only later to get turned into backwards and sideways passing robots?

 

A mixture of confidence (a lack of it) and tactical shape. Really long post in coming, TLDR: it's all in their heads. 

 

For a start, and I was screaming this last year and I maintain it now, 352 is an utterly horrible shape to try and play possession football. You need options equally spread about the pitch with good width and good combinations. 352 is a decent system for counter attacking, high pressure football but it's utterly guff to create more patiently. When you don't have good options in good positions, you can't move the ball quickly. 

 

But I look at the team this year and I see a crippling lack of confidence. A lot of that sideways passing is our back four and none of them want the ball. They're all lacking in confidence and they're all hiding. They'll spend five minutes just passing the ball (and thus all responsibility) to each other. 

 

Those sideways passes are easy and risk free, you don't risk giving up the ball. As much as Vestergaard is a train wreck defensively, he's by far our most positive centre back option for actually progressing play which is why Rodgers needs him right now. He'll actually pick out a pass vertically and get us up the pitch. He can pick out the striker comfortably from defence and keep it on the deck doing it. 

 

Soyuncu used to be an important part of progressing the ball up the pitch but he's in absolutely hideous form and lacking confidence and so he won't risk losing the ball. He treats if like a hot potato. Bertrand is hugely under whelming in possession and also just looks to get rid ASAP. He's like Danny Simpson in possession and Ben Chilwell out of it at the moment, hugely unhelpful. 

 

Even Youri looks a bit short on confidence and at times is slow to drop back and call for the ball. Soumaré is supposed to be another one that'll drop in, collect it from the back four and progress it up the pitch but he's also just settling in and is taking some time to adjust and build confidence. 

 

These slick passing plays that people want us to play and that characterise the best of Rodgersball, they require a risk. Essentially you need someone to beat the opposition press and find the space behind it. You do that by passing through the lines, carrying it or playing a fast one-two to catch the opponent out of shape. 

 

I don't have @StriderHiryu's vast collection of gifs but he's got one somewhere of Papy Mendy taking out about 3 Man City players with one turn away last year in the build up to the first penalty. It's moments like that that we're lacking because nobody wants to take that risk other than maybe Nacho who's ironically about the highest in confidence atm.

 

Another good move we used to see a lot was Ricardo firing it in to Perez's feet, Perez flicking it round the corner with his back to goal and Ricardo chasing on the overlap to collect it. Or Barnes knocking it in to Madders/Vards for something similar. 

 

This is what we're lacking, that movement, those touches, because all of these things take a certain baseline in confidence and nobody looks like they have it currently at all. 

 

This slow play isn't completely on Rodgers tactically (although, of course, the mental state of the squad is a big part of his role as manager), he's not sending them out there and telling them to only pass sideways slowly. He WANTS people to step up and take constructive, calculated risks and go get the ball up the pitch. In training with the pressure off that's almost certainly what happens, I imagine it's quick, slick and exciting. 

 

But it's easy when nobody's watching. A couple of mates and I move it around up Goals twice a week looking like peak Brazil but any idiot can do that playing fives with a bunch of middle aged duffers. When you're playing elite professionals in front of 30'000 expectant fans in the richest league in the world the stakes are higher and that pressure can absolutely paralyse and that's what we've seen repeatedly from this squad over the years. They have such fragile self belief. 

 

What made Peak Mourinho (pre Eva Carneiro meltdown) the best manager in the world was his ability to instill that kind of confidence all day every day in his players. He never came out and criticised them publicly, it's what all his Special One deflection was about in the media. He wanted the focus to be on his crazy antics so his players could focus on their football. Zlatan speaks in glowing terms of how, after his relationship failed with Guardiola, Mourinho picked him up and made him feel like a lion, really turned him in to the powerhouse he was.) His Inter Milan, Chelsea and Porto teams had an unbelievable swaggering arrogance like they thought they OWNED football. Not only do we not have that, we have a straight up inferiority complex at times. Legia was a great example, we treated them like they were veteran European pros when what we SHOULD have thought was "fvck you amateurs, we're Premier League."

 

That seems to be one of Rodgers biggest flaws as a manager. As smart as he may be tactically, as good as he may be coaching and improving players tactically or technically, he seems to be terrible at building up their confidence, inspiring them and making them feel like Kings. 

 

I don't think we've had that at this club since Shakespeare was the Assistant to be honest. Not that I'm calling for him back but we've definitely struggled with the psychological side of the game under both Puel and Rodgers. 

 

It seems to be what stands between Rodgers and being a truly elite coach. Again, I don't think we should actually sack him, but accepting he has flaws is going to be an important part of just being happy as a Leicester fan. We aren't going to just magic up a manager that doesn't have flaws. Pearson was a great motivator but tactically inept, Ranieri had a good eye for defensive organisation but lost the dressing room with unnecessary changes. There's always going to be a flaw. 

[MalletFox]

I’m not Hamza’s biggest fan, but he was definitely one of our better performers yesterday, especially considering he’s had such little game time. 

[Countryfox]

6 minutes ago, hejammy said:

I think the point people are making is that why is he being singled out  ..  

 

Because he has a point to prove and a rare opportunity to stake a claim ..

[hejammy]

1 minute ago, Countryfox said:

Because he has a point to prove and a rare opportunity to stake a claim ..

Oh come on that is such a feable excuse to give him abuse and/or single him out. 

[Countryfox]

3 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Oh come on that is such a feable excuse to give him abuse and/or single him out. 

I’m not abusing him at all just saying he is simply not good enough which is reflected in the fact we tried to move him on ..  and I’m not just singling him out as most of the team are playing sh1te ..  this just happens to be the Choudhury thread. 

[An Sionnach]

25 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

Those sideways passes are easy and risk free, 

Kelechi illustrated perfectly yesterday that sideways passing carries inherent risk and it surprises me that the  opposing teams keep letting us get away with it

[Wolfox]

11 hours ago, thereeldeel said:

Posted this earlier. Anyone who wants to say he was no good today is clearly a hater. Leicester have struggled over the past few weeks. He’s come in with zero match fitness and you can tell he got tired. But what he did was cause problems for palace. After he came off they conceded 2z The hassling foils more attacks then you realise. If you’re expecting him to come in and be perfect all round player lower your expectations, he doesn’t get any game time. It’s clear there’s some real haters on here talking out their miserable backsides. 

Do you know what…. Fair enough…

 

I called him out as being woeful as he gave the ball away so much and it stuck in my mind…

 

Those stats are impressive…. I’d watch the game again to check, but, not sure I could take it!!!

 

Sorry Hamza!

[coolhandfox]

4 hours ago, The boy Linacre said:

Yep.  But will say he was excellent yesterday, I actually think without him we would have lost, as we kept winning the ball off them in the first half in good positions.  Distribution and passing v limited but we need that ball winner, of defensively we'll get swamped.

2nd best player on the pitch yesterday after Timmy who was excellent and did a great job on Zaha.

He had a as good of game as anyone, however how often was he winning the ball back due to him give possession away. 

 

Often gave the ball away in poor areas.

 

Can't fault his commitment or energy but he's a average footballer at this level.  

[moore_94]

17 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

He had a as good of game as anyone, however how often was he winning the ball back due to him give possession away. 

 

Often gave the ball away in poor areas.

 

Can't fault his commitment or energy but he's a average footballer at this level.  

He didn’t give it away anymore than Youri did

[Royston.]

Choudhury is way down the pecking order when everyone else is available so maybe we have delusions of grandeur expecting anything more from him.

Who better is going to come and be content with his squad status?

[StriderHiryu]

@Finnegan

 

 

As you were saying, this is Rodgers style football at it's best, playing out from the back, beating the high press and making a chance. This led to our first penalty away to Man City last season.

 

I agree with you that it's about confidence. If you give the ball away and are being scape goated, you are more likely to hide rather than take a chance. At the same time, some of our basic passing in recent games has been horrid and it's been seen throughout the side, even players coming in that shouldn't be affected like KDH.

 

Lookman, Nacho and Vestergaard (yes really) are the only players who can pass consistently at the moment.

[The Horse's Mouth]

Don't get what people want for him tbh, he's a solid enough squad player at end of the day, the kind of player you want isn't going to be happy playing second fiddle to wilf 

[deep blue]

6 hours ago, An Sionnach said:

According to some , there are no decent players, only the great and the shit. Hamza is no great player but he definitely is not shit. He can be pretty good sometimes as well. His distribution is not great but neither is Ndidi's a lot of the time. What he is ,is tough and durable , almost never injured , and he gets stuck in and competes. We have been left with no Mendy , so Hamza plays but I want Soumaré in there as well to give us a physical core , the lack of which has been one of our biggest faults.

Agree with this 100%.

[deep blue]

6 hours ago, Webbo said:

When people say we suffered when he came off, we were suffering before he came off. 

But we didn't concede for the 60 mins Hamza was on - or doesn't that count for anything?

[cruzFOX]

31 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

@Finnegan

 

 

As you were saying, this is Rodgers style football at it's best, playing out from the back, beating the high press and making a chance. This led to our first penalty away to Man City last season.

 

I agree with you that it's about confidence. If you give the ball away and are being scape goated, you are more likely to hide rather than take a chance. At the same time, some of our basic passing in recent games has been horrid and it's been seen throughout the side, even players coming in that shouldn't be affected like KDH.

 

Lookman, Nacho and Vestergaard (yes really) are the only players who can pass consistently at the moment.

Aww man seeing that clip made by eyes well up. We can play so we’ll we really can. For so many reasons we are mikes off it and it’s awful to watch. Back to basics BR. We’ve tried the band aid approach. Start from the back and fix that first. Give Hamza one simple food that he can focus on and get really good at in the coming weeks. He is not a flexible type of player imo. I do have hope he can be an effective player if Rogers really helps him. Let’s support the guy give him encouragement.

[StriderHiryu]

11 minutes ago, cruzFOX said:

Aww man seeing that clip made by eyes well up. We can play so we’ll we really can. For so many reasons we are mikes off it and it’s awful to watch. Back to basics BR. We’ve tried the band aid approach. Start from the back and fix that first. Give Hamza one simple food that he can focus on and get really good at in the coming weeks. He is not a flexible type of player imo. I do have hope he can be an effective player if Rogers really helps him. Let’s support the guy give him encouragement.

It comes down to confidence. Rodgers doesn't tell our players to misplace passes, that's on them. Perhaps he is guilty of asking them to play it in too controlled a fashion from side to side, but we didn't really do that much against Palace, as they dominated possession and we played more of a counter attack game.

 

Players have to be brave to demand the ball and then have the quality to make the pass. Right now we don't have either.

 

With regards to taking off Hamza, he probably did it as he hadn't managed 90 minutes but also to get another player in the middle of the park who could get hold of the ball and keep it. I think we missed his tenacity thereafter though.

[Foxy-Lady]

On 04/10/2021 at 09:08, Finnegan said:

 

I find this quite ironic really given that most of the people showering unwavering praise on Hamza are just seduced by the fact he ran around a lot and are either unwilling or unable to look at the consequences of that. 

 

The work Choudhury was doing looks great superficially, it's eye catching to see a player charging off all over the place all blood and thunder. But what's less immediately perceptible but just as important is all the holes you leave behind you when you play like that (particularly when the whole team isn't doing it.)

 

Palace had his number all game long. They just passed it around him and then advanced the play in to the space he left behind. And it's not like Youri has blistering pace to cover. 

 

As much as I don't like to shovel on the criticism because, at the end of the day, Hamza gave it his all and someone's best effort is really the best we can demand of them. I mean when I say that if everyone matched his enthusiasm we'd claw ourselves out of this funk far more easily. 

 

 

100% agree with this and been saying it for a long time.

 

I like Hamza and i love his tenacity and effort.....but not maintaining team shape and looking for eye catching tackles/interceptions higher up the pitch is not what he should be doing and it creates too much space behind him when he gets by-passed and caught out...and leaves our defence exposed which is the primary function of a CDM to ensure that doesn't happen

[Stadt]

If we could combine Hamza and Mendy we'd have a fantastic back up player, both of them have too severe limitations to be relied on. Choudhury isn't disciplined enough to maintain concentration and Mendy doesn't have the legs for it.

 

 

There's plenty of players in France we could pick up for c. £10m to be a dependable Ndidi back up. We'd recoup most of that fee by shifting one, or both, of Mendy and Choudhury.

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, Foxy-Lady said:

primary function of a CDM to ensure that doesn't happen

 

See this is Hamza's problem. He's not a CDM. 

 

He's a ball winner whose focus is interceptions and tackles and most modern football systems want that in a defensive midfielder whose job it is to sit in front of the back four. 

 

That's not really Hamza's game. He has no positional discipline at all, he's essentially a free roaming box to box midfielder that happens to be pretty shit in possession. 

 

And almost nobody wants that. 

 

Best use of Hamza that I can think of really would be in a Klopp style high pressing, dynamic system with at least one other midfielder being a more structured, holding player. 

 

Liverpool don't need creativity in centre midfield, it's why Thiago and even Keita are a waste and why Tielemans shouldn't go anywhere near them. What they want are three hard working grafters in the middle to cause disruption. Their creativity all comes from the full backs, wingers and the false 9.

 

In that sort of system Hamza would be great (I mean, not world class but certainly a lot better.)

 

Let's say Klopp turned up as a manager here tomorrow, Ndidi (Fabinho), Hamza (Milner/Hendo) and Soumaré (Wijnaldum before he left) would probably be a pretty good starting point for him and would enable - say - JJ and Ricardo the freedom to bomb on and play as extremely active attacking full backs. 

 

In that sort of role, I think Hamza would really shine. His positional discipline wouldn't matter, partly because Ndidi would be covering and partly because the whole team would be pressing right up the pitch. 

 

See, that's Hamza's other problem - against Palace he was just doing it alone. If you're high pressing but everyone else is low blocking, you're not helping you're a problem. If the whole team was right up the pitch pressing frantically together he wouldn't have been such an issue being wild out of position. But he was, because that wasn't the plan. 

 

Edited 5 October 2021 by Finnegan

[drumbeat]

20 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

It comes down to confidence. Rodgers doesn't tell our players to misplace passes, that's on them.

He obviously wouldn't tell them to give it away but he might well give them a right bollocking if they do. He might be emphasising not losing possession over creativity to the extent that players have become almost scared to pass the ball. But I take the point being made here (both by yourself and Finnegan); players are lacking the confidence to take a risk. The irony is that in doing so they sometimes end up playing themselves into trouble.

 

How many safe passes do we see to Kasper only for him to then find touch or play us into trouble? Soyuncu particularly seems risk averse with the ball (almost as if someone has told him to give the ball to someone else to pass "because you're crap at it"!) and I think we all acknowledge that his confidence is at a low ebb.  

 

So maybe there is more to this confidence thing than I am seeing. Maybe BR needs to employ a motivation/confidence trainer as part of his team, if he's not so hot at it.