Was Rodgers right?

[Mr Mister]

Why should they back him when he spunks the cash on trash. He will spunk more cash on more trash and make the team worse.

[don_danbury]

if he did get 6 players then all end up being crap and money would've gone to waste. so no he is not right 

[Le Renard]

15 minutes ago, Mr Mister said:

Why should they back him when he spunks the cash on trash. He will spunk more cash on more trash and make the team worse.

Not defending him, but the club has previous on this, summer 2016 :- Musa, Slimani, Kaputska, Hernandez, Zieler & Mendy.....would Mendy be considered a success?  I think the only Manager since Pearson who's been successful in the Transfer market was Puel, and most of us couldn't wait until he was given his P45.  I think some others at the club need to take a long hard look at themselves, it is not 100% Rodgers!

Edited 19 September 2022 by Le Renard

[Nalis]

On 18/09/2022 at 10:20, Claridge said:

He said we needed 6 new players and it seems we do. I don’t like Rodgers and want him gone, but I don’t envy the new manager with these bottle jobs. Zero backbone

To challenge for the top 4, yes.

 

To get out of the bottom half or even just the bottom 3, fvck no, we have more than enough quality.

[Finnaldo]

This squad is midtable at worst. He has them woefully underperforming. 

[Guy]

23 minutes ago, Le Renard said:

Not defending him, but the club has previous on this, summer 2016 :- Musa, Slimani, Kaputska, Hernandez, Zieler & Mendy.....would Mendy be considered a success?  I think the only Manager since Pearson who's been successful in the Transfer market was Puel, and most of us couldn't wait until he was given his P45.  I think some others at the club need to take a long hard look at themselves, it is not 100% Rodgers!

It's not been the same since Steve Walsh left really has it? That said since then, then in his time here Puel and the staff did recruit very well re Maddison, Tielemans, Soyuncu, Evans, Pereira, etc. Rodgers' recruitment by comparison has been absymal save for the jewels in the crown Justin and Fofana, albeit both who were out for lengthy periods of their careers here through injury, of which Justin has not got back to the player he was before he got crocked - while Fofana is now plying his trade in the capital of course!  

Edited 19 September 2022 by Guy

[Dan]

Good article today from Daniel Storey where we're quite heavily featured (he's a Forest fan but he's very clued up on us to be honest). As per last year - we aren't good going forward, we just have good attacking players and that's why we will always score goals. We don't create many chances at all. We just take more than virtually anybody. This was true of last season too, our 8th placed finish was as high as that almost entirely because of the quality of our attacking players, they patched over the inept coaching and lack of organisation. I would actually go as far as saying that the performances this season haven't been 'that' much worse - I think it's the same stuff being churned out, but we just have a far worse goalkeeper (who is absolutely miles off being good enough for this level) and a completely diminished confidence as a result. We still don't create chances, we still allow absolutely loads against us.

 

Finishing 8th last season was bad because it brainwashed people. We were incredibly fortunate to finish that high up. The luck has run out (and to an extent, it actually hasn't).

[STEVIE B]

He was right. Not anymore though. 

[Guest ttfn]

13 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

Good article today from Daniel Storey where we're quite heavily featured (he's a Forest fan but he's very clued up on us to be honest). As per last year - we aren't good going forward, we just have good attacking players and that's why we will always score goals. We don't create many chances at all. We just take more than virtually anybody. This was true of last season too, our 8th placed finish was as high as that almost entirely because of the quality of our attacking players, they patched over the inept coaching and lack of organisation. I would actually go as far as saying that the performances this season haven't been 'that' much worse - I think it's the same stuff being churned out, but we just have a far worse goalkeeper (who is absolutely miles off being good enough for this level) and a completely diminished confidence as a result. We still don't create chances, we still allow absolutely loads against us.

 

Finishing 8th last season was bad because it brainwashed people. We were incredibly fortunate to finish that high up. The luck has run out (and to an extent, it actually hasn't).

Performances are the same as they were from November last season. We’ve not been 1 point from 7 games bad this season, nor were we 52 points good last season.

 

We’ve had the look and feel of a 40 point team for almost a year. 
 

I keep catching myself thinking “last season wasn’t that bad after all”. It was. It was absolutely miserable, we exited 3 cup competitions in humiliating fashion, had the Spurs debacle, the endless late goals conceded, the laughable set piece record, I could go on. It’s just that the 1 point from 7 games is so unbelievably shit we’ve lost perspective on where this team ought to be which is knocking out 55-65 points.

 

I’ve lost count of the times I’ve looked at us, especially defensively and thought “this team doesn’t look like it’s been coached”. There’s a lack of cohesion and structure which allows teams to cut through us at will, especially on the counter attack. We’re as bad in transition as we are at set pieces. This is not an issue of personnel, Soyuncu, Evans and even Vestegaard have all been at least serviceable Premier League defenders in their time and Ndidi is (used properly) one of the best at what he does.

[Guest]

He was right in that if we wanted to go back to challenging for the top 4 or probably even 6 places then we needed to strengthen. I don't think there's really any argument to be had about that.

 

The problem is that one of the main reasons we need to strengthen is that recruitment under him - and ordinarily I'd be wary of blaming that on Rodgers but it's a bit easier to do when the head of recruitment arrived seemingly on his recommendation - has been poor. Or maybe it hasn't been poor, it's just he's been unable to get much out of the players who've come in. I suppose time will tell on that.

 

It also doesn't excuse the recent performances and results. Stagnation is maybe to be expected after the last few windows we've had but what we're doing is worse than stagnation. He spoke about how the squad is basically the same as when he arrived - well, that squad finished 5th, 5th and 8th and won an FA Cup, so how do you explain it now being bottom of the league with a single point and no wins, losing 6 in a row and conceding 11 goals in 2 games? Can't have it both ways.

[StriderHiryu]

If the expectations were to challenge again for the top 4, then I think Rodgers does have a point about needing that many players.

 

However, with the set he currently has we should not be languishing at the bottom of the table. When we were promoted in 2014/15 we were at the foot of the table for so long, but the difference between that team and this is that one had nowhere near the quality of the team we have now. And yet that team fought with real gusto in every single game and though they got beaten a lot, it was by the odd goal and were competitive in every match. At worst this current team should be 12-13th in the league - we have players that many other teams would want in our first team.

 

Rodgers big mistake for me is not being pragmatic enough to change things. He wants us to play a high pressing game and passing the ball out from the back and out of trouble. That has been his forte since he became a manager many years ago. But the league has changed with the influence of Guardiola, Klopp and to an extent himself and Pochettino. Every single team in the league this season presses, which makes playing the ball out of trouble a lot harder to do. Trying to do it with a team who are low on confidence and players that might not be capable of doing it, leaves us in our current position. It's why we keep getting torn apart and not just losing games by the odd goal, because there's so much space in behind on the turnover. This was happening last season too, but we did not adapt our game very much. Ironically in some of the games we did change our approach, e.g. Liverpool at home, it got results.

 

With the lack of investment the team has, we should concentrate on being hard to beat. Get a few clean sheets to build confidence in defending. We have lots of fast players in the team such as Barnes and Daka and could easily transition to a counter attacking team. That would be making the best out of the players you have available rather than complaining about the ones you don't. 

 

I do understand the reason for keeping a specific system for a long time to get good at it. It's the reason why Brighton really started to click this year, Arsenal too. But those teams have had continued investment or in Brighton's case, the expectations were a lot lower. We are in big trouble and we need to survive.

 

If Dyche comes in, and frankly I expect it to happen, watch him go 442, sit back in a deep block and use Daka on the counter attack with Vardy for the last 30 minutes when we are ahead and the game is stretched. And I bet it would easily get us 40+ points, even if in some games it's a bit crap to watch.

 

The one thing I will say about Rodgers is that he's the only manager in the league this season not to be backed. And whilst there are good reasons for that, if I was in that position I'd be upset with my bosses too. Which is probably the point as it's felt like in the summer the decision from above was to hope he would resign after not being backed, firing him if necessary. 

 

 

[Claridge]

Feels like the players who have on the whole have been pretty pathetic are getting let off lightly. Rodgers has managed them poorly, but for professional players on 70,000 a week they have been woeful

[Dan]

5 hours ago, ttfn said:

Performances are the same as they were from November last season. We’ve not been 1 point from 7 games bad this season, nor were we 52 points good last season.

 

We’ve had the look and feel of a 40 point team for almost a year. 
 

I keep catching myself thinking “last season wasn’t that bad after all”. It was. It was absolutely miserable, we exited 3 cup competitions in humiliating fashion, had the Spurs debacle, the endless late goals conceded, the laughable set piece record, I could go on. It’s just that the 1 point from 7 games is so unbelievably shit we’ve lost perspective on where this team ought to be which is knocking out 55-65 points.

 

I’ve lost count of the times I’ve looked at us, especially defensively and thought “this team doesn’t look like it’s been coached”. There’s a lack of cohesion and structure which allows teams to cut through us at will, especially on the counter attack. We’re as bad in transition as we are at set pieces. This is not an issue of personnel, Soyuncu, Evans and even Vestegaard have all been at least serviceable Premier League defenders in their time and Ndidi is (used properly) one of the best at what he does.

The most infuriating thing about it for me was I think by November as well, I'd fully believed that Rodgers needed to go. I wasn't expecting it to happen but I was about 90% sure it was what was needed. I think it was weirdly the Arsenal home game where I just thought "yeah that mini run was a false dawn, we're still crap" and then the next few games, Chelsea in particular were abject, appalling performances that tipped it over the edge. With the exception of Liverpool and PSV away I've not really been impressed in the slightest by us since that time and every time we've won I've felt a nagging feeling that it's going to more than anything preserve this downwards curve that we're on. Maybe not actively hoping we lost every time but so many wins we were just pretty crap and got bailed out. Even in the games at the end of the season, Norwich, Watford, Southampton we were either gifted the lead or given huge let offs.

 

This season for me it's just more of the same disorganisation, can't defend set pieces, absolutely shambolic in transition, don't really create good chances, all things you could aim at us last year, we're just weaker in a key position. The fact we've actually got just 1 point in 7 games, despite outscoring the next 10 teams above us in the league is pretty extraordinary.

 

I was saying this yesterday to @Stadt about Vestergaard. I don't rate the bloke but he has been a regular in a better side than the one we're seeing at the minute. People laughed at his comments about wanting more chances here, but he's got more of a case than people think. The Southampton side he was in wasn't good but it wasn't playing as badly as this. I think if we had a manager with even the slightest clue on how to set up a defence he could be of a little more use than he has been.

[Bert]

7 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

The most infuriating thing about it for me was I think by November as well, I'd fully believed that Rodgers needed to go. I wasn't expecting it to happen but I was about 90% sure it was what was needed. I think it was weirdly the Arsenal home game where I just thought "yeah that mini run was a false dawn, we're still crap" and then the next few games, Chelsea in particular were abject, appalling performances that tipped it over the edge. With the exception of Liverpool and PSV away I've not really been impressed in the slightest by us since that time and every time we've won I've felt a nagging feeling that it's going to more than anything preserve this downwards curve that we're on. Maybe not actively hoping we lost every time but so many wins we were just pretty crap and got bailed out. Even in the games at the end of the season, Norwich, Watford, Southampton we were either gifted the lead or given huge let offs.

 

This season for me it's just more of the same disorganisation, can't defend set pieces, absolutely shambolic in transition, don't really create good chances, all things you could aim at us last year, we're just weaker in a key position. The fact we've actually got just 1 point in 7 games, despite outscoring the next 10 teams above us in the league is pretty extraordinary.

 

I was saying this yesterday to @Stadt about Vestergaard. I don't rate the bloke but he has been a regular in a better side than the one we're seeing at the minute. People laughed at his comments about wanting more chances here, but he's got more of a case than people think. The Southampton side he was in wasn't good but it wasn't playing as badly as this. I think if we had a manager with even the slightest clue on how to set up a defence he could be of a little more use than he has been.

The thing with Vestergaard is that when he played for Southampton, their back lines starting point was 15 yards deeper than ours is. He simply had to defend. Head balls, clear balls. Here, he’s expected to play out from the back, which he isn’t all that good at doing and because we are that bit higher up the pitch, he’s going to get caught out with his pace on a turnover as well as more than likely being dragged out of position as on a turnover our full backs will likely be out of position. It’s the same with Denmark, they generally play a fairly low block and all he has to do is defend. 

[Corky]

7 hours ago, ttfn said:

Performances are the same as they were from November last season. We’ve not been 1 point from 7 games bad this season, nor were we 52 points good last season.

 

We’ve had the look and feel of a 40 point team for almost a year. 
 

I keep catching myself thinking “last season wasn’t that bad after all”. It was. It was absolutely miserable, we exited 3 cup competitions in humiliating fashion, had the Spurs debacle, the endless late goals conceded, the laughable set piece record, I could go on. It’s just that the 1 point from 7 games is so unbelievably shit we’ve lost perspective on where this team ought to be which is knocking out 55-65 points.

 

I’ve lost count of the times I’ve looked at us, especially defensively and thought “this team doesn’t look like it’s been coached”. There’s a lack of cohesion and structure which allows teams to cut through us at will, especially on the counter attack. We’re as bad in transition as we are at set pieces. This is not an issue of personnel, Soyuncu, Evans and even Vestegaard have all been at least serviceable Premier League defenders in their time and Ndidi is (used properly) one of the best at what he does.

We are very poorly coached. We don't do the basics well at all. Throw in a much inferior goalkeeper, a team not scoring as many great goals as usual and a squad undermined publicly by its manager and you are left with this.

 

The squad is not perfect but is much better than this position. We've got one player out injured at the moment and one match per week. Rodgers' excuses from last season are gone.

[Dan]

34 minutes ago, Bert said:

The thing with Vestergaard is that when he played for Southampton, their back lines starting point was 15 yards deeper than ours is. He simply had to defend. Head balls, clear balls. Here, he’s expected to play out from the back, which he isn’t all that good at doing and because we are that bit higher up the pitch, he’s going to get caught out with his pace on a turnover as well as more than likely being dragged out of position as on a turnover our full backs will likely be out of position. It’s the same with Denmark, they generally play a fairly low block and all he has to do is defend. 

Precisely and you could argue the same with Ryan Bennett too. I'm not defending either player too much as they've been no good but they were both such obviously awful fits for what we wanted.

 

We've been so lacking in the basics I think there might be the odd surprise in individual performance when he does leave.

[Bptiger]

5 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

Precisely and you could argue the same with Ryan Bennett too. I'm not defending either player too much as they've been no good but they were both such obviously awful fits for what we wanted.

 

We've been so lacking in the basics I think there might be the odd surprise in individual performance when he does leave.

So maybe Rodgers should have changed his playing knowing what he had signing but he refused and that’s why he needs to go 

[Gamble92]

Coming out and saying it was suicide. 

 

I got shot down on here for suggesting that at the time too. Everyone said what harm can it do because they won't be here anyway. Look how that's turned out. 

 

If he'd kept it quiet and then the worst case scenario happens where we don't shift those players then you still have them raring to go. Now we have a bunch of players he either won't play or has been forced to play with them knowing he doesn't want them. 

 

It's really getting to me all this. There was a thread about what it does to mental health etc but it's genuinely heart breaking to see where we are heading after all we've achieved. I don't want it to end now and we have to act. 

[Oxfordfox83]

If Rodgers had the slightest shred of dignity, he’d resign, rather than stay in a job that he’s only in because we can’t afford to sack him. 
 

He doesn’t. He’s more Partridge than Partridge at the moment.

[Nicolo Barella]

2 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

The most infuriating thing about it for me was I think by November as well, I'd fully believed that Rodgers needed to go. I wasn't expecting it to happen but I was about 90% sure it was what was needed. I think it was weirdly the Arsenal home game where I just thought "yeah that mini run was a false dawn, we're still crap" and then the next few games, Chelsea in particular were abject, appalling performances that tipped it over the edge. With the exception of Liverpool and PSV away I've not really been impressed in the slightest by us since that time and every time we've won I've felt a nagging feeling that it's going to more than anything preserve this downwards curve that we're on. Maybe not actively hoping we lost every time but so many wins we were just pretty crap and got bailed out. Even in the games at the end of the season, Norwich, Watford, Southampton we were either gifted the lead or given huge let offs.

 

This season for me it's just more of the same disorganisation, can't defend set pieces, absolutely shambolic in transition, don't really create good chances, all things you could aim at us last year, we're just weaker in a key position. The fact we've actually got just 1 point in 7 games, despite outscoring the next 10 teams above us in the league is pretty extraordinary.

 

I was saying this yesterday to @Stadt about Vestergaard. I don't rate the bloke but he has been a regular in a better side than the one we're seeing at the minute. People laughed at his comments about wanting more chances here, but he's got more of a case than people think. The Southampton side he was in wasn't good but it wasn't playing as badly as this. I think if we had a manager with even the slightest clue on how to set up a defence he could be of a little more use than he has been.

I think if we did sign Dyche Vestergaard might show us a bit of why we signed him

[Dan]

1 hour ago, Gamble92 said:

Coming out and saying it was suicide. 

 

I got shot down on here for suggesting that at the time too. Everyone said what harm can it do because they won't be here anyway. Look how that's turned out. 

 

If he'd kept it quiet and then the worst case scenario happens where we don't shift those players then you still have them raring to go. Now we have a bunch of players he either won't play or has been forced to play with them knowing he doesn't want them. 

 

It's really getting to me all this. There was a thread about what it does to mental health etc but it's genuinely heart breaking to see where we are heading after all we've achieved. I don't want it to end now and we have to act. 

Keeping quiet wouldn't have protected his own reputation, which is all it's ever been about and he isn't discrete about it.

[Gerard]

1 hour ago, Oxfordfox83 said:

If Rodgers had the slightest shred of dignity, he’d resign, rather than stay in a job that he’s only in because we can’t afford to sack him. 
 

He doesn’t. He’s more Partridge than Partridge at the moment.

 

He'd be stupid beyond belief to walk out of a £200k a week job and a potential £10m pay off, dignity or not it's naive in the extreme to think otherwise. The only way he leaves here is if he gets sacked or when that fat contract runs out.

[Gerard]

1 hour ago, Nicolo Barella said:

I think if we did sign Dyche Vestergaard might show us a bit of why we signed him

Low block, counter attacking football and someone who should be able to help with our massive weakness of defending crosses. I think he would certainly be in the picture.

[Nalis]

5 hours ago, Bert said:

The thing with Vestergaard is that when he played for Southampton, their back lines starting point was 15 yards deeper than ours is. He simply had to defend. Head balls, clear balls. Here, he’s expected to play out from the back, which he isn’t all that good at doing and because we are that bit higher up the pitch, he’s going to get caught out with his pace on a turnover as well as more than likely being dragged out of position as on a turnover our full backs will likely be out of position. It’s the same with Denmark, they generally play a fairly low block and all he has to do is defend. 

Kind of begs the question why on earth did we buy a player who clearly wasnt going to fit in to our system.

[smudgerfox]

The contradictions abound. It seems to be taken as read in the wider football community that he’s a brilliant coach. - a highly critical piece in The Athletic recently, constantly repeated this mantra. But where is the evidence? He transformed Swansea at a time when the club was historically well supported ( a bit like us now), failed at Liverpool and then steamrollered the SPL with Celtic at a time when Rangers were on their knees. Is that the record of a brilliant coach? Is a brilliant coach unable to fix a laughably long-standing vulnerability to set pieces, to conceding at the worst possible times (straight after we’ve scored, straight after half time, in the last ten). Does a brilliant coach set up his defence such that it concedes 22 goals in seven games? 
 

We’re also repeatedly told he’s a brilliant man manager. Really? I don’t need to rehearse the specifics but here are just some of the names that would say otherwise: Choudhury; Praet; Ihenacho; Soyuncu; Perez; Vestergaard; Castagne;Mendy. 
 

He has been at the club for three and a half years now and he simply has to “own” the squad. If there are players still here who are deficient - then that’s on him. If we can’t defend corners because we don’t have “the right profile of player” - that’s on him. If we repeatedly fail to hold on to a lead or keep a clean sheet - there’s only one person who is ultimately to blame. He has failed in these footballing fundamentals - producing performances which would shame a Sunday League team. That in a nutshell is why he is wrong, wrong, wrong. It’s why he has to go.