Tactics Under Maresca

[Ricey]

6 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

I think the real underlying issue is that even if we do get promoted, which frankly the fact that's an if is an absolute joke in itself for me, but if we do see it through we've seen enough of the limitations and enough of the one-dimension to know that we'd get absolutely bummed in the Premier League. My gripe's less that he has a way he wants to play it's that its as wedded to just playing one formation at any cost, in any situation, with any personnel and there is no changing it. An assumption that 'the system' will trump all.

 

The longer time has gone on the more it looks to me we're doing it in spite of the system rather than because of it. Good luck when that individual quality is inferior in 80% of games next season, "if" we get promoted.

 

I'd be far more willing to forgive his shortcomings if I saw him looking for solutions but he just assumes he's cracked it and the others will trip themselves up. It's brutal. It's like being on the titanic, you know an absolute shitstorm is inevitable.

This is it for me. He's seen the inner workings of Guardiola's Man City and has come away from that thinking that there is only one way to do things. He thinks that changing shape, mixing up our patterns of play or going more direct at times is sacrilege and will cause the players and fans to believe in "the idea" less.

 

That works when you are Pep and you have the resources to back it all up, but we don't have that luxury. He has to be more flexible and realistic to where we are are, the squad we have and the situation we find ourselves in.

 

He feels more like a salesman for The Idea™ than a football manager who's job it is to get results.

[jmono84]

His tactics blew championship teams away to start with because they couldn’t handle the overload in the middle.

 

Opposition now know to crowd the middle, sit deep and they’ll eventually get the ball where they will have so much space to counter attack.

 

Enzo must see it’s not working. I don’t get why he just doesn’t use JJ and Riccy P to overlap his inverted wingers or at least adjust systems to suit what is needed in games. To just keep doing what we’re doing is stupid, we should be well out of sight by now.

[CrazyKopCorner]

What the fuch was that intial set up last night? 

 

Wilf on the left, KDH on the right and no Abdul 

 

I think that was put together by a brain dead over thinker 

[lcfcell]

8 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

You wonder how many regret their cowardice. I think opposition fans' perception of us is absolutely miles above what the reality is. This has been the case for ages as well. I preferred it when we were underrated. Suited us more.

Every week on Twitter when our team is announce you always see fans of the team we’re playing saying stuff like “just keep it under 3” then by full time it’s “how are they top?” 

 

Millwall are shite. Like really really shite and that will have been their easiest game all season last night. 

[lcfcell]

2 hours ago, BenTheFox said:

If we were managed by Farke or McKenna, I genuinely think we'd be promoted by now. 

I’d honestly say any semi decent manager with championship experience would have 

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

1 hour ago, jmono84 said:

His tactics blew championship teams away to start with because they couldn’t handle the overload in the middle.

 

Opposition now know to crowd the middle, sit deep and they’ll eventually get the ball where they will have so much space to counter attack.

 

Enzo must see it’s not working. I don’t get why he just doesn’t use JJ and Riccy P to overlap his inverted wingers or at least adjust systems to suit what is needed in games. To just keep doing what we’re doing is stupid, we should be well out of sight by now.

Yea we get too bogged down in central positions, and if the wingers are having an off day it becomes very difficult to break teams down. 

[dmayne7]

Maybe my time has come and I'm going from glass half full to half empty but can you really trust any football manager who describes it as being like a game of chess? I can't think of a sport that is less like chess?! It's meant to be fast and frenetic for large portions. The strategy and tactics are that to give a core structure to your team, not to be used to control all patterns and possibilities.

 

99/100, it's the most well rounded team, given the clearest and cleanest style of play by a manager who inspires them, that wins things in football. You then trust those players' individual qualities to win you games. Anything contrary to that is just stifling your ability to play. Said it so many times, but the value of tactics are for those subtle tweaks or to negate a key threat; the extra 1%. Thinking it's more than that is just sheer arrogance.

[Col city fan]

50 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

Maybe my time has come and I'm going from glass half full to half empty but can you really trust any football manager who describes it as being like a game of chess? I can't think of a sport that is less like chess?! It's meant to be fast and frenetic for large portions. The strategy and tactics are that to give a core structure to your team, not to be used to control all patterns and possibilities.

 

99/100, it's the most well rounded team, given the clearest and cleanest style of play by a manager who inspires them, that wins things in football. You then trust those players' individual qualities to win you games. Anything contrary to that is just stifling your ability to play. Said it so many times, but the value of tactics are for those subtle tweaks or to negate a key threat; the extra 1%. Thinking it's more than that is just sheer arrogance.

Brian Clough;

“95% of football management is the same. Any football manager can do it. It’s the extra 5% that makes the difference”.
Personally I think Enzo is probably ‘too nice’ with this squad. That’s how he comes across. That will only work for so long. What these players now need is a kick-up the arris by someone who isn’t ’too nice’.

Imo

[Muzzy_no7]

Someone PLEASE rename this thread. 
 

TACTIC, not Tactics. 
 

Im still absolutely seething with him, single handily butchering what should have been a routine season. 

[tickler28]

Thinking any half decent manager worth his salt would have us promoted by now.

[cityfanlee23]

3 hours ago, Ricey said:

This is it for me. He's seen the inner workings of Guardiola's Man City and has come away from that thinking that there is only one way to do things. He thinks that changing shape, mixing up our patterns of play or going more direct at times is sacrilege and will cause the players and fans to believe in "the idea" less.

 

That works when you are Pep and you have the resources to back it all up, but we don't have that luxury. He has to be more flexible and realistic to where we are are, the squad we have and the situation we find ourselves in.

 

He feels more like a salesman for The Idea™ than a football manager who's job it is to get results.

I think you're right, but also I think it's a mix of philosophy and ego for us. 
Pep has stuck to the philosophy but he has played 4 very clear formations this season (5 if we want to be pedantic and include the club world cup) and all of those formations are fluid and change mid game, pep plays Inverted full backs who slot into midfield similar to ours, and if that's not working he shifts them into overlapping full backs to support the wingers, or for example he will play a sort of hybrid 352, and if he's short in midfield, he allows Stones to venture forward and the wingbacks slot back into a back 4. 
Pep is dynamic and pragmatic, Enzo is unfortunately not. 

[Muzzy_no7]

1 minute ago, tickler28 said:

Thinking any half decent manager worth his salt would have us promoted by now.

Yep.

 

Hes been outcoached both in-game and by relative performance in comparison to squad depth and quality by all of the following, some on more than one occasion:

 

Daniel Farke

Mckenna

Rosenior

Corberan

Wagner

Mark Robins

Carrick

 

Cifuentes, Rohl and Neil Harris have all also got the better of him in games against them. 

The only managers I would genuinely say he has done a better job than are Russell Martin, Beale and Rooney. 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

People wanting a drastic change in footballing philosophy are going to be disappointed.

 

King Power have wanted us to be a possession based team since we sacked Shakespeare. Until they go it'll just be more of the same, if Enzo goes they'll just get another possession based manager in.

[Matt]

3 hours ago, Ricey said:

This is it for me. He's seen the inner workings of Guardiola's Man City and has come away from that thinking that there is only one way to do things. He thinks that changing shape, mixing up our patterns of play or going more direct at times is sacrilege and will cause the players and fans to believe in "the idea" less.

 

That works when you are Pep and you have the resources to back it all up, but we don't have that luxury. He has to be more flexible and realistic to where we are are, the squad we have and the situation we find ourselves in.

 

He feels more like a salesman for The Idea™ than a football manager whose job it is to get results.

Do you know what makes me believe in “the idea” less?

 

Doubling down on it.

[Muzzy_no7]

11 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

People wanting a drastic change in footballing philosophy are going to be disappointed.

 

King Power have wanted us to be a possession based team since we sacked Shakespeare. Until they go it'll just be more of the same, if Enzo goes they'll just get another possession based manager in.

No no no no.

 

There is a distinct difference between possession football and possession for possessions sake football.

 

Just watch some Bologna, Man City, Stuttgart, Arsenal, Leverkusen or Brighton games. 
 

They play more vertical passes, they take risks and actually OVERLAP at times. These teams create chance after chance and play with INTENSITY. They raise the tempo when they need to.

 

What we are doing is lethargic, boring and frankly about as entertaining as County Cricket for 97% of matches. 

Edited 10 April by Muzzy_no7

[Sly]

5 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

People wanting a drastic change in footballing philosophy are going to be disappointed.

 

King Power have wanted us to be a possession based team since we sacked Shakespeare. Until they go it'll just be more of the same, if Enzo goes they'll just get another possession based manager in.

We need the correct profile of player to undertake this. They don’t need to cost the earth actually. We’ve just got a right mosh-mash of players who were recruited for a different playing philosophy, on long term contracts. 

 

This is why for all our wrongs, we will end up buying obscure players and still tick along, albeit it being safe, not very exciting football. 
 

We are data driven with recruitment I believe, so that points to us ending up with bits and pieces players.

 

Let’s us be realistic, we are seeing the decline of Vardy. We don’t really have a suitable replacement. He’ll be gone in the summer. 
 

What data never tells you, is how good players are in terms of in game transitions really. So many of our goals conceded are through our own making, that’s football though.

 

We looked tired last night. I do wonder how intense our training is now. Do we need to dial it in a little to increase the freshness? 
 

Tactically though, go deep and narrow, then counter and we are easy to take apart.
 

Press Faes when he’s in midfield, or Ricky when he’s dropped into midfield and we have defence holes all over the shop. 
 

Vestergaard is great on the ball but he’s as mobile as a concrete bollard. We keep getting sucker punched as we’re so easy to counter against. 

[Stadt]

3 hours ago, Ricey said:

This is it for me. He's seen the inner workings of Guardiola's Man City and has come away from that thinking that there is only one way to do things. He thinks that changing shape, mixing up our patterns of play or going more direct at times is sacrilege and will cause the players and fans to believe in "the idea" less.

 

That works when you are Pep and you have the resources to back it all up, but we don't have that luxury. He has to be more flexible and realistic to where we are are, the squad we have and the situation we find ourselves in.

 

He feels more like a salesman for The Idea™ than a football manager who's job it is to get results.

Pep is extremely willing to change things however. You'd think Maresca would have picked that up after spendings 1000s of hours with him  

[Brizzle Fox]

3 hours ago, lcfcell said:

I’d honestly say any semi decent manager with championship experience would have 

Tbf if muppets like Manning and Harris can work out how to play against us I'd suggest that they wouldn't even need to be this good.

[Dan LCFC]

4 hours ago, lcfcell said:

Every week on Twitter when our team is announce you always see fans of the team we’re playing saying stuff like “just keep it under 3” then by full time it’s “how are they top?” 

 

Millwall are shite. Like really really shite and that will have been their easiest game all season last night. 

A lot of the whole "tough place to go" is self-fulfilling and its our own doing. I know somebody who goes and watches them (doesn't support them but lives locally) and says they're rubbish, fans were turning on Harris already, they were fully ready to lose their heads yesterday providing we got at them early and made them pay.

 

But it was literally everything you feared it could be. We could not have played it more into their hands if we tried. It was the textbook example in how not to play at Millwall as a favourite. They were so vulnerable yet we create a situation where we make it tougher and tougher for ourselves.

 

Before last night they had beaten just one of the top ten at home this season. They've just come off defeats to Huddersfield and Rotherham - the latter being one of the worst sides ever seen at this level.

 

To treat it as anything utter than an absolute catastrophe of a result would be to allow further drop in standards which is all that seems to happen at this club these days. How much further are we actually going to fall and how quickly are we going to get there?

[Dan LCFC]

2 hours ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

No no no no.

 

There is a distinct difference between possession football and possession for possessions sake football.

 

Just watch some Bologna, Man City, Stuttgart, Arsenal, Leverkusen or Brighton games. 
 

They play more vertical passes, they take risks and actually OVERLAP at times. These teams create chance after chance and play with INTENSITY. They raise the tempo when they need to.

 

What we are doing is lethargic, boring and frankly about as entertaining as County Cricket for 97% of matches. 

What proportion of the last eight years have we been entertaining to watch? I'd say a quarter maximum and the one constant is insipid, casual losses like last night. We're appalling at coming back to win games and it's because of our insistence on playing slowly.

 

The more time goes on the more I think they're almost ashamed by the style which we won the league in 2016.

[lcfcell]

Not quite sure how to phrase what I mean without sounding like an old man yelling at a cloud but this clubs identity just isn’t possession football. Before anyone says no I don’t mean gerrit forward, play for corners, long throws, route 1 etc being our only hope of scoring and no I don’t expect us to sit back at home to Rotherham and play for counter attacks. 
 

Purely from a fan’s entertainment point of view since the club wanted to shift to how we play now heavily focused on keeping the ball being safe in possession we’ve been dull as **** to watch. 
 

Not entirely sure if what I mean makes any sense but hopefully you get what I’m trying to say 

 

I just miss when we had a bit of blood and thunder football to watch. Some chaos. 

[ARTY_FOX]

It was never going to instantly click. We started better than everyone expected and its skewed things. This style will take time, pep didn't get right first go round at man city either. 

[cityfanlee23]

13 minutes ago, ARTY_FOX said:

It was never going to instantly click. We started better than everyone expected and its skewed things. This style will take time, pep didn't get right first go round at man city either. 

Pep was dynamic and played multiple formations and multiple different styles. This season alone he's played 4 different formations (5 if you count the club world cup), peps wingers invert into the centre, and when that isnt working they overlap on the wing, Pep has CB's that are competent playing as a defensive midfielder. Pep changes formation and style fluidly throughout the match. 

Enzo does not to any of that. There is a monstrous difference between the two managers, I know you're not making a direct comparison between Pep and Enzo so please don't think i'm saying that, I understand that Pep took a season or so to really click. 
But pep has showed he is dynamic and pragmatic at multiple clubs in multiple countries with multiple teams.
Enzo refuses to even overlap a full back. 

At present there is no evidence it ever will click, let alone instantly.

[Denzel the fox]

Aside from the plan b issue, the point I’m still struggling with is his acceptance of risk near our own goal and his reluctance to take almost any risks when we have possession in the attacking third……odd given the attacking scenario, all we’ll do is lose the ball rather than concede a goal, outside of all the tactical stuff risk vs reward seems arse about face 

Edited 10 April by Denzel the fox

[dmayne7]

12 minutes ago, ARTY_FOX said:

It was never going to instantly click. We started better than everyone expected and its skewed things. This style will take time, pep didn't get right first go round at man city either. 

But if we had started like this and this is where we'd ended up, he'd have been sacked. I appreciate that the context can distort things but the whole point is it was meant to get a lot better as time went out and it's been dire performance wise for a long time.

 

As for Pep, he didn't have the best group of players at first and in fact, an ageing team. They still did ok. Certainly improved as time went on.