Tactics Under Maresca

[BigGibbo]

Legendary. Will go down in history eclipsing any other sporting failure. 

[Matt]

1 minute ago, Tuna said:

It's just shit football isn't it

Noooo, can't be, Man City play like it and they win evvvvrything.

[FrankieADZ]

Just now, Matt said:

I'm still waiting for answers regarding:

 

How this style is sustainable, how it preserves energy and how it breaks teams down?

 

Answers on a postcard advocates of "How the game should be played" fans.

it frankly isnt, if you dont adapt you die, and our tactics are basically doing that, 

a good manager is flexible with tactics and formation, Enzo isnt even doing that, rigid like a corpse atm tbf 

 

we are slow in the build up play, take little to no risks, atm its like whats the point

dont get me wrong i like hes controlling possession etc and keeping it on the floor but **** me, we need to do something with it, stop trying to score the perfect goal, mix up the passing, take risks

 

enzo needs to adapt, even Arteta changes his style when needed

[Rigga]

Chances to break quickly tonight yet we dally on the ball because it has to be controlled possession..

the oppo gets back into their formation and we have zero creativity in breaking them down ..

 

It’s an  awful watch.. as Brendan as you can get… wouldnt care less if he walked tomorrow. 

[ithuriel]

We do not need tactics, we are playing total football, so long as you keep the ball, caress the ball, love the ball you can't,......oh shit........

[peterborofox]

Pass along the edge of the box, constantly probe with wingers, then pass back and repeat. 

 

Go ****ing central FFS, have a full back overlap. Have a ****ing shot from outside the box. 

 

Quit having no right back all the time. ****ing ridiculous football 

[Matt]

Domination of the ball does not mean domination of the game.

[5waller5]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

Domination of the ball does not mean domination of the game.

Exactly.

 

Even more extreme:

 

The commentator tonight said “despite dominating the game” As we were passing around the back four, at 78 minutes, 1-0 down to a very very poor side.

 

Even my Mrs looked up from her phone to say “surely it’s suits them for us to be doing that. You could say they’re dominating us”

 

 

[FrankieADZ]

his tactics got me remembering this quote

 

"insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

 

 

Edited 12 April by FrankieADZ

[Finn Claw II]

But he’s an elite manager.  It’s not fair to judge him without giving him an extra £100m to spend.

 

The opposition are not playing fair by pressing and scoring on the break or defending deep 

[HankMarvin]

1 minute ago, Finn Claw II said:

But he’s an elite manager.  It’s not fair to judge him without giving him an extra £100m to spend.

 

The opposition are not playing fair by pressing and scoring on the break or defending deep 

Getting found out a lot now 

[FrankieADZ]

52 minutes ago, Matt said:

Noooo, can't be, Man City play like it and they win evvvvrything.

tbf they get the ball forward quicker than us

[filbertway]

4 minutes ago, Finn Claw II said:

But he’s an elite manager.  It’s not fair to judge him without giving him an extra £100m to spend.

 

The opposition are not playing fair by pressing and scoring on the break or defending deep 

Thats the problem, on paper the theory looks so good. But these pesky teams aren't doing what he thinks will happen on paper.

[dmayne7]

I've been quite dismissive of how much modern managers obsess over tactics, forgetting that it's a very small part of the game, or at least the impact is less than they think. Then I had a think about the biggest elements that are mostly down to coaching; defensive setup and set pieces.

 

Defensive setup: Was looking at it last night and I genuinely don't know what Enzo is trying to do. We don't press the ball at all which seems strange for a team that wants to dominate the ball and should be superior to every other team in this league. We're extremely passive but we're also not well organised. The right hand side is always an issue given the setup but there are also many gaps all over the pitch and playing through the lines is very simple. Look at the organisation of Plymouth and Millwall by comparison. We should be much more aggressive but if not, there's no reason we can't be incredibly difficult to break down given the players don't need the same levels of concentration as the opposition.

 

Set pieces: What needs to be said? This is all about drilling the players and yes, it requires them to take responsibility but neither seems to happen. The delivery is often poor but there's been plenty in the right area but we don't even look like getting first contact, let alone scoring. Defensively, the same vulnerabilities remain.

 

For me these are the 2 most tangible things where it comes down to coaching (attacking can be far more free flowing) and we look amateurish. Enzo is looking like an utterly awful coach at the moment

[Gevans_97]

We are only good when an opposition press us. Before the goal yesterday we actually looked pretty sharp, should've scored. They were pressing us very highly and we were getting through them with ease. Then it's about attacking well in transition.

 

As soon as teams don't do this, we're useless. We're so slow at the back because we're trying to bait the press, which is now not coming because teams KNOW that's what we're trying to do. 
 

It's like Maresca hasn't even planned for any sort of position where we're camped on their 18 yard box. That's the issue, teams have figured out our style of 'baiting the press' and now won't be fooled.

[Alf Bentley]

I don't think the problem is our tactics, more our near-100% reliance on those tactics.

 

Some like tactics based on high possession, outnumbering the opposition and playing through them - and some don't. That's a matter of preference.

 

If well executed, such tactics can be effective, as we saw earlier in the season. But they aren't always effective. Opponents can be defensively organised, pack their box and take opportunities on the break or at set pieces.

In which case, you need other ways of scoring goals: e.g. long shots, a physical striker, corners, direct free-kicks. I can think of 2-3 long shots we've scored, but not many - and even fewer goals scored by the other means mentioned.

 

Indeed, having the ability to score by other means can make Enzoball more effective. If an opposing team concedes a goal to a free kick, long shot, corner or physical striker creating space for midfielders, they can't pack the defence for 90 minutes as they're losing. If they have to open up a bit more in the quest for an equaliser, it can give us greater opportunities to play effective Enzoball and find the space to pass through them. As it stands, when Enzoball isn't working, we seem to have no other means of scoring a goal - and even limited opposing teams will get opportunities on the break or at set pieces.

 

I wonder if part of the problem is that, despite having better individual players than most Championship clubs, the squad lacks the diverse range of skills needed to score goals in other ways.:

- Long shots: KDH, Winks & Abdul have scored occasional long shots, but not many, while it really isn't Wilf's strong point

- Direct free kicks: we rarely seem to threaten from these

- Corners: Too often poorly delivered, but we also lack people to get on the end of the good ones. Vesty lacks the mobility & strength, Faes similar, not a strong point for most of our strikers (Vardy/Daka OK occasionally), Wilf seems to get crowded out

- Physical attackers: Given space, all our strikers plus Mavididi are capable of scoring (ignoring Daka's current bad form), but our tactics and packed penalty boxes mainly leaves them crowded out. A more physical striker would offer a different option, knocking defenders about, holding up, creating space for midfielders to get shots away. I'm not just talking about the stereotypical "big bloke, crosses into the box"; balls into the box could be to feet or chest with the right player.

 

Man City have been mentioned given the Enzo connection. But they don't get all their goals from possession, outnumbering and passing through opposing teams. Think of their players: they have players capable of winning headers at corners, hitting free kicks, scoring long shots, playing more physically. Obviously, we cannot aspire to the standard of player they have, but we seem to lack the Championship-level equivalent of those types of players.

[lcfcell]

Not exactly sure if this is the right thread but why do all our players absolutely smash the ball when passing? Then you have KDH who a lot of the time under hits passes. 

[OntarioFox]

It feels like Groundhog day at this point.

Every time there's a new manager, there's an initial bounce and performances to match, then it all turns back to the same turgid possession-for-posession's-sake nonsense.

This has been happening every. Single. Manager. Since Nigel's son decided to use his mouth in two inappropriate ways in the same video.

Ranieri comes in, tweaks a winning formula, wins the league. Absolutely brilliant, dreams came true. Why wake up? Only he then tries to shoehorn a possession based style into the same squad second-season, loses to a threadbare Hull side on day one and almost gets us relegated with only the Champions League run - where I'm certain we played in the "old way" due to pure adrenaline - to paper over the cracks.

Shakespeare comes in, goes back to basics and drags us through to the Quarter final, gets some vital wins on the board and keeps us safe for the season. Brilliant. Sleepwalks back into the same habits, admittedly not to the same extent as Ranieri, we go backwards, he goes. Probably the one I blame least for the board-led gaslighting of the fanbase that Posession footy is the be-all-and-end-all, but still guilty of trying it with poor results and clear signs of not being a "managerial mind" able to adapt in-game.

 

Puel comes in, already with a reputation for boring, turgid football. Actually starts off with - you guessed it - exciting counter attacking footy. See the breakaway with Gray for Vardy's goal in his first game. We were sarcastically singing "boring boring Puel" in the crowd that day. By the time of the tragic disaster at the KP however, we were playing exactly that brand of turgid, crappy posession football, and we were seeing results slide. Embarrassments in the cup against the likes of Newport were the final nail for most fans. A League Two side outclassing even our second string with a basic high-press was a new low at the time, but that sort of supposed mismatch being bridged with ease by poor opposition is now such a common thing with Leicester that we should have seen it as a premonition for the club as a whole, not just a sad indictment of Puel himself. Gets a few hindsight bonus points from me for good transfer targets and bringing through some academy products, but just another nail in the coffin of our "true" style IMO.

And then Brendan. Hoo boy, Brendan. The early days were excellent, because as Ric pointed out on the podcast, he was willing to try different systems to get the most out of his philosophy. We would shift between diamonds, 3-5-1-1 setups and - shocking as it may sound right now - even tried a 4-4-2 on rare occasions (the away day at Villa Park with Vardy and Iheanacho up top was incredible, one of my favourite ever). Then his transfer business started to rot the squad from the inside. He developed his favourites, settled into one w*nky way of playing that was painfully easy to counter, and we ultimately endured two long years of absolute rot, regular humblings, bottlings and - worst for me - the complete lack of desire or mentality in the squad, most blatant in the way we capitulated twice in two years away at Forest in games that clearly meant a lot to the fans but the players looked scared to take part in.

And so we came to this season and Enzo. And initially it looked like he was working miracles. The speed of the turnaround in our form, results and importantly our mentality was admirable, but the difference here is that we were (and are) now playing at a lower level, against far poorer teams, which now saw us as a big fish. Initially, we were able to get away with fairly aimless possession football because teams were scared to attack us. When they did, our higher fitness levels - the one thing I can genuinely credit Enzo for sorting over pre-season - got us over the line in so many games early on. But when those opponents were not Man City and Arsenal, but rather Coventry and Rotherham, you have to temper your praise in hindsight.

Eventually, and I think this started to really become apparent during AFCON but has only gotten worse since, teams realised that sitting off us and chasing shadows until they tired and allowed us to score was just stupid and that they would get far more joy just snapping at heels and applying pressure. For some it worked because they could score first and shut up shop (hello Millwall and Plymouth), for others it was sheer tenacity and improving fitness that turned the tables and let them get the late goals to stuff us (hello Leeds away and Ipswich... twice).

The difference this time is that there was no transition period where we actually tried something different. We saw tantalising glimpses of it away at the likes of Birmingham and West Brom, but those were rare exceptions. The rest of the season, as Enzo has said himself, we had a style and we've stuck to it. Possession footy is here to stay, deal with it.

I think it was probably during the Puel days when I first started to really feel a sense of jealousy watching other teams - the likes of Crystal Palace in particular, a team I should never have felt such a thing towards in any normal world - outclassing us seemingly every time we played them with simple, high-energy Counter Attacking football that we had conquered the unconquerable doing ourselves only a few short years prior. Since then, I've had to stand helpless and watch teams do it to us time and time again. Those two farces at the "World Famous" City Ground. The Bergwijn disaster against Spurs. Countless games against fodder in Rodgers' final two seasons where our old style - which we'd proven was the way to beat any possession-based system right up to the likes of Man City's - was actively showing up the new one we'd had forced onto us as fans, without any real say in the matter. We were one of the clubs that led to a global shift in attitudes - the death of "tiki-taka", yet here we were trying to adopt the very style that we'd shown ourselves was now outdated and at the very least needed a rethink if not consigning to the history books altogether! Madness. It was the football equivalent of Jeff Bezos walking into Woolworths in 2007 and deciding "you know what, Chad Valley and Pick & Mix is the way forwards, I'm going to do that instead of my online delivery thing".

 

At this point I can't help but buy into the conspiracy that the Board themselves have decided that - in line with their delusion that we are now somehow permanent top-six gatecrashers - we must play a "cultured" style of football and balls to any suggestions to the contrary. It may be tolerated for short periods when new managers come in, but the appointment and the style are non-negotiable and must fit into this weird, arrogant "vision" we now have as a club. One that flies completely in the face of how we achieved our greatest escape, followed by our greatest triumph. It's upsetting from a fan perspective, and absolutely deluded from a business one because it completely ignores and wilfully opposes the way we even got to dine at that table in the first place.

You know it's bad when I think in hindsight that I genuinely would have preferred to see what Jesse f**king Marsch might have done with us and his chaotic, mindless "get it down the middle fast and bugger to the defensive side of the game" style. Even if we lost games 5-4 every week it would be more enjoyable than watching us now labouring to get anything against the likes of Plymouth, Millwall, Bristol City, QPR and so on. As it turns out, we went for the "safe" interim option of Deano and it didn't work. Now we're in the Championship and staring down potential financial ruin whatever league we find ourselves in. But at least the board got their possession man! He learned from Pep! He even looks like him! Look, we're a "big" club playing "big football! Paying "big" wages! Wait, what do you mean Millwall just scored?

 

I'm not asking us to become a team who hide ten men behind the ball every game and hope that we can play a coiled spring against every team we ever face. Football doesn't work like that, and I'd be revising history to say that there weren't times when we struggled against a low block ourselves during the "counter" days. But by god, if we're playing against a high line, change it up! Exploit the space! Be more direct! Try crosses to heads once in a while!

Enzoball isn't uniquely bad - it's just the latest in a string of failed experiments (Ranieriball, Shakeyball, Puelball, and most offensively Rodgersball) that works only when the players are A) at 100% concentration, B) 100% fitness, C) 100% intensity and (probably most importantly - Patson Daka, looking at you mate) D) 100% ruthlessness in front of goal. In rare cases this season it has worked, like when we blew Stoke away. But Stoke are shit. They let us. It's like how Rodgersball worked when the going was good, most famously in the 9-0, but even that was slightly handicapped by playing 10 men from the moment we gained our 1 goal advantage. When ANY of those 4 requirements are compromised, it either takes a big slice of luck to win games, or we throw points away.

I could go on further, but unless you couldn't tell by this wall of text I'm sick of it. Save for a few bright spots, and a hell of a lot of kidding myself earlier this season that I enjoyed this "brand" of football, I really don't. And it seems most Leicester fans don't, and never have done. Yet we've been forced to endure it for probably 80-90% of the games we've watched for Eight. Years. Now.

I used to roll my eyes at clubs talking about playing, say, "the West Ham way", but I get it now. I really do. The "Leicester City way" is a real thing, and it's even embedded in the song about our late owner. We play from the back... we counter attack. We don't play from the back... kick it sideways and then concede a goal. We had our way, then not so much lost it as actively chose to abandon it. And it's shit, and I hate it, and I just want to see us play like we did for that golden 18 month period again one day. I know it had its own critics, and some called it boring for large parts of games - but if that was boring then what the hell is the shite we've been served for the best part of a decade now by comparison?

I despair. I really do. Until the board fall on their swords and people come in with fresh ideas and the bravery to appoint somebody with more tactical depth than a paddling pool, this cycle will continue whatever league we're in. How on earth did we become so BORING?
 

Edited 14 April by OntarioFox

[Claudio Fannieri]

I have seen a lot of social media posts calling Ipswich lucky for the amount of late goals and deflected goals they have scored, however i disagree I think it’s more a reward for the mentality they show, they are not afraid to lay siege to the goal when needed which then leads to mistakes and deflections etc. 

 

I don’t necessarily have an issue with our style of play, however it’s the lack of tempo and intensity that frustrates me.  I cannot remember the last time we scored a lucky deflected goal after laying siege. Even at 1-0 down we are still trying to create the perfect chance, and that becomes harder and harder the later the game goes on and the deeper the opposition are, you haven’t got the space to create clear perfect opportunities so in last ten minutes in about getting balls into the box to create mistakes and deflections that lead to goals, balls directed hard and low into congested areas can cause havoc in final few minutes but we never try it. 
 

On Friday even though in the last 15 minutes Plymouth barely left there own half we had made two like for like subs and kept the exact same formation, we didn’t need a defensive midfielder at that stage he could have thrown on either Cannon as the extra striker or even Yunus to play as a 10 either side of KDH and Praet, in place of Winks and given  Plymouth something different to think about, but we didn’t and as a consequence barely laid a glove on their goal. 

[BenTheFox]

Bayer Leverkusen, who have won the Bundesliga, are managed by Xabi Alonso who played under Pep Guardiola and could be described as one of his disciples (although that would be disingenuous as he played had under other big managers such as Mourinho, Benitez, del Bosque etc.). They play a possession based game, however, if you watch them they play with such freedom and purpose within a structure. It is a world away from the rigid and insipid football we have become used to seeing. 

Edited 14 April by BenTheFox

[lcfc sheff]

4 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

Bayer Leverkusen, who have won the Bundesliga, are managed by Xabi Alonso played under Pep Guardiola and could be described as one of his disciples (although that would be disingenuous as he had under other big managers such as Mourinho, Benitez, del Bosque etc.). They play a possession based game, however, if you watch them they play with such freedom and purpose within a structure. It is a world away from the rigid and insipid football we have become used to seeing. 

We’ll need 3 new centrebacks, new wingbacks, new centre mids and new strikers we should be good to go! 🤣🤣

[Larry_LCFC]

Problem is the Man City style of football is great in the Premier League with World class players but it was never going to be effective in the Championship. The league is far, far to physical and direct. It worked to an extent for a period but we've been worked out and quite frankly we are just getting bullied now. 

[dorsetboy]

No right back most of the time , one up top just not working and lack of power through the middle when our wingers get doubled up on which they have been the last few games and we have looked clueless. 

 

Mavadidi has been poor last 4 or 5 games. Personally i would like to see us switch to a 3-5-2 and bring back the vardy/nacho partnership , Drop mavadidi and replace him with justin who can help out at the back plus get forward  and keep fatuwa who has shown he can be decent tracking back also.

 

--------------------------------- hermannsen--------------------------------------

-----------------faes-------------vesty---------------doyle 

fatuwa--------winks---------ndidi-----------kdh--------justin

------------------------nacho---------------vardy----------------------------------

 

 

Something must change because if millwall and plymouth can snuff us out you can be sure west brom,southampton will

 

[Chelmofox]

3 minutes ago, dorsetboy said:

No right back most of the time , one up top just not working and lack of power through the middle when our wingers get doubled up on which they have been the last few games and we have looked clueless. 

 

Mavadidi has been poor last 4 or 5 games. Personally i would like to see us switch to a 3-5-2 and bring back the vardy/nacho partnership , Drop mavadidi and replace him with justin who can help out at the back plus get forward  and keep fatuwa who has shown he can be decent tracking back also.

 

--------------------------------- hermannsen--------------------------------------

-----------------faes-------------vesty---------------doyle 

fatuwa--------winks---------ndidi-----------kdh--------justin

------------------------nacho---------------vardy----------------------------------

 

 

Something must change because if millwall and plymouth can snuff us out you can be sure west brom,southampton will

 

No he hasn’t. Good games at home against Norwich and Birmingham. Recency bias is a nightmare. How anyone thinks nacho deserves to start ahead of mavadidi makes my mind boggle. 

[splinterdream]

                                                               Mads

                                       Coady            Vesty            Doyle

               Fatawu         Ricardo          Winks           KDH           Mavididi

                                               Cannon           Vardy