Also In The News - part 3

[MPH]

33 minutes ago, Bryn said:

I would call Starmer centre-right and Corbyn left but there was nothing extreme about Corbyn whatsoever.

 

 

I’d  say far left is inside of extreme  left  of course 

 

 

honestly, I think We are spoilt in Britain when it comes to defining politics . There’s some real nutters out there in the world.

Edited 20 October 2023 by MPH

[OntarioFox]

11 hours ago, David Hankey said:

No surprise in these by-election results. I'm just amazed so many still voted for the Conservatives.

 

Let's have a General Election now, get the other mob in and hope they do a better job than how they left things in 2010.

Looking at the demographics in constituencies like the two that they threw away last night, it may have been a miscalculation from Sunak and Co. to try to cling on through another winter of largely self-inflicted fuel poverty, crippled hospitals and care homes, Covid and Flu. They might literally be seeing their electoral hopes die before their eyes.

Edited 20 October 2023 by OntarioFox

[weller54]

1 hour ago, MPH said:

 

 

I’d  say far left is inside of extreme  left  of course 

 

 

honestly, I think We are spoilt in Britain when it comes to defining politics . There’s some real nutters out there in the world.

Yeah you're right..

Johnson wasn't nutty at all 😂😂😂🤬

[Spiritwalker]

1 hour ago, MPH said:

 

 

I’d  say far left is inside of extreme  left  of course 

 

 

honestly, I think We are spoilt in Britain when it comes to defining politics . There’s some real nutters out there in the world.

Liz Truss?

[CosbehFox]

13 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Wouldn't be too thrilled with this behaviour if I were a Tory voter.

Why does he look he’s in the dock? 

[MPH]

48 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Yeah you're right..

Johnson wasn't nutty at all 😂😂😂🤬

 

in comparison, no!

[SecretPro]

28 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Why does he look he’s in the dock? 

Probably about the only Tory MP who hasn't been (or should have been).

Edited 20 October 2023 by SecretPro

[SecretPro]

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1715437877604049094?t=prB4ssKC_u7LyVOu6rOCXw&s=19

[Dunge]

An interesting and - from what I can tell - analytically neutral discussion on the main UK parties and left/right stance since in recent times. Obviously it doesn’t include current positions because it’s looking specifically at manifestos - which is fair because these are both official declarations and snapshots in time.

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1467-923X.13009

 

The more interesting graphs are from the halfway point onwards.

Edited 21 October 2023 by Dunge

[CosbehFox]

9 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

Why does he look he’s in the dock? 

Having seen the videos of his wife earlier on in the evening and her subsequent videos/tik toks off waffle, it might be cos he’s about to commit murder 

[Lionator]

14 hours ago, Bryn said:

I would call Starmer centre-right and Corbyn left but there was nothing extreme about Corbyn whatsoever.

I disagree with the Starmer centre-right thing. Centrist sure, but putting people into these boxes is silly. For example Corbyn 2017 was centre left and progressive, whereas Corbyn 2019 was harder left and stupid. Also yeah, like others have said, if Starmer is centre right then Joe Biden is a far right fascist. 

[Daggers]

I think some people need to listen to this:

 

 

[BKLFox]

When Labour get the gig how long into their term does the Tory bashing and blame stop, I know things won’t be fixed overnight but when do people want to see actual change?

Will it continue for years & multiple threads bringing them (Tories) up much like the amount of chat that continues to point back in time and lay all blame on Rodgers?

 

Serious question, do we allow a new government to bumble on pointing backwards and blaming the previous government or do we say enough, you have the reigns you said you were going to do this so get on with it?

 

I hope people are wising up to this, and it’s been used on here before, this almost football allegiance to a particular party & hope there isn’t this well they have ‘x’ number of years grace because the previous government left it in this or that state.

 

Going forward we need to hold them ALL to account, at the minute we give them ALL an easy ride because they are ‘our’ colours that needs to stop and that means colours have to change to support the best team, we need to start mixing it up and keep them on their toes, if your local council aren’t producing make them pay, kick up a stink don’t ghost through just because they are ‘your’ team, it’s the only way we are going to see results!

[Free Falling Foxes]

1 hour ago, BKLFox said:

When Labour get the gig how long into their term does the Tory bashing and blame stop, I know things won’t be fixed overnight but when do people want to see actual change?

If they follow the Tories with the blame game, then quite sometime.

Senior Tories were still blaming the previous Labour administration well, well into their second term.... and beyond.

[Wymsey]

 

 

[Zear0]

29 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

 

 

Didn't realise Nuge had gone double-barrelled? 

[Lionator]

Why are Labour local councillors resigning over Starmer’s stance on Palestine? They are elected to serve their local community, how unless you have a large Palestinian demographic in your area is that relevant? It’s just spineless, performative bs. 

[Dunge]

13 hours ago, Daggers said:

I think some people need to listen to this:

 

 

I don’t often follow the links on here - nothing against them, just generally it’d take up too much time. But I was curious and had an hour earlier today so I checked it out. Interesting listen. Obviously a year or so old now but still valid. What I took from it was:

 

- Starmer’s driven by a sense of justice. Not some sort of phoney justice as proscribed by religious or cultist lunatics but more of a social justice. That being his passion really comes across.

 

- He’s a humble man, likely coming from his upbringing. He believes in integrity and doesn’t accept praise easily. That’s both a strength and a weakness - he seems like someone who has a quiet, steely determination once something has happened rather than someone who barks loudly to chase something off. While there’s a lot to be said for the former, sometimes a bit of showmanship can get you what you want or even scare off potential evildoers a lot easier. It can also make it easier to get things done without descending into long arguments with political “frenemies”. Is he leadership material for a country like the UK? He’s probably more like a Brown or a May than a Johnson, Cameron or Blair. Not being so bombastic would be an interesting change for an actual election winner rather than a follower of another PM, but he’ll need to do better than Brown and May at galvanising his party behind him, as well as maintaining energy in the years to come.

 

- Following on from the above, he loathes Boris Johnson. He is pretty much the antithesis of him.

 

- I can totally understand why he’s pro-EU. (I don’t say that in anticipation that he’d necessarily look to rejoin as PM but he can still be pro-EU regardless.) He mentions a desire for international cooperation to solve problems. That’s an essentially an EU ideal. It’s a promising trait with regard to the fight against climate change.

 

- I still find it hard to abide the patronising smug that is James O’Brien. 

[StanSP]

 

 

[Daggers]

8 hours ago, Dunge said:

I don’t often follow the links on here - nothing against them, just generally it’d take up too much time. But I was curious and had an hour earlier today so I checked it out. Interesting listen. Obviously a year or so old now but still valid. What I took from it was:

 

- Starmer’s driven by a sense of justice. Not some sort of phoney justice as proscribed by religious or cultist lunatics but more of a social justice. That being his passion really comes across.

 

- He’s a humble man, likely coming from his upbringing. He believes in integrity and doesn’t accept praise easily. That’s both a strength and a weakness - he seems like someone who has a quiet, steely determination once something has happened rather than someone who barks loudly to chase something off. While there’s a lot to be said for the former, sometimes a bit of showmanship can get you what you want or even scare off potential evildoers a lot easier. It can also make it easier to get things done without descending into long arguments with political “frenemies”. Is he leadership material for a country like the UK? He’s probably more like a Brown or a May than a Johnson, Cameron or Blair. Not being so bombastic would be an interesting change for an actual election winner rather than a follower of another PM, but he’ll need to do better than Brown and May at galvanising his party behind him, as well as maintaining energy in the years to come.

 

- Following on from the above, he loathes Boris Johnson. He is pretty much the antithesis of him.

 

- I can totally understand why he’s pro-EU. (I don’t say that in anticipation that he’d necessarily look to rejoin as PM but he can still be pro-EU regardless.) He mentions a desire for international cooperation to solve problems. That’s an essentially an EU ideal. It’s a promising trait with regard to the fight against climate change.

 

- I still find it hard to abide the patronising smug that is James O’Brien. 

The next time you have a spare hour, check out the Raynor interview. 

[Wymsey]

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/local-news/totally-crazy-moment-flock-sheep-8840103

 

[Alf Bentley]

52 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/local-news/totally-crazy-moment-flock-sheep-8840103

 

 

That reminds me....

 

When my brother was a teenager, after some ale and possibly some mushrooms, he and his mate got talking about what crazy, fascinating creatures sheep were (we grew up in a village with sheep fields nearby).

They resolved to kidnap a sheep to keep as a pet. I'm not sure they'd thought it through particularly well. So, they went out into the fields in the night, running around trying to capture a sheep - but failed.

 

It still amuses me to think of the scenario if they'd succeeded - and had woken up in the morning, hung over with a sheep standing in the bedroom.

 

We did have escaped bullocks and horses on our front lawn on different occasions, but never sheep.

[Alf Bentley]

11 hours ago, Dunge said:

I don’t often follow the links on here - nothing against them, just generally it’d take up too much time. But I was curious and had an hour earlier today so I checked it out. Interesting listen. Obviously a year or so old now but still valid. What I took from it was:

 

- Starmer’s driven by a sense of justice. Not some sort of phoney justice as proscribed by religious or cultist lunatics but more of a social justice. That being his passion really comes across.

 

- He’s a humble man, likely coming from his upbringing. He believes in integrity and doesn’t accept praise easily. That’s both a strength and a weakness - he seems like someone who has a quiet, steely determination once something has happened rather than someone who barks loudly to chase something off. While there’s a lot to be said for the former, sometimes a bit of showmanship can get you what you want or even scare off potential evildoers a lot easier. It can also make it easier to get things done without descending into long arguments with political “frenemies”. Is he leadership material for a country like the UK? He’s probably more like a Brown or a May than a Johnson, Cameron or Blair. Not being so bombastic would be an interesting change for an actual election winner rather than a follower of another PM, but he’ll need to do better than Brown and May at galvanising his party behind him, as well as maintaining energy in the years to come.

 

- Following on from the above, he loathes Boris Johnson. He is pretty much the antithesis of him.

 

- I can totally understand why he’s pro-EU. (I don’t say that in anticipation that he’d necessarily look to rejoin as PM but he can still be pro-EU regardless.) He mentions a desire for international cooperation to solve problems. That’s an essentially an EU ideal. It’s a promising trait with regard to the fight against climate change.

 

- I still find it hard to abide the patronising smug that is James O’Brien. 

 

I largely agree with that.

 

Labour might win the election due to Tory unpopularity, but if Starmer is to retain authority over his party and retain public support under difficult circumstances, he'll need more public buy-in. That buy-in needs to be both to policy and to him as leader. Hopefully, some of the integrity and focus expressed in that interview will be conveyed to the public during the election campaign, counteracting impressions that he's just bland and ill-defined.

 

On policy, Labour needs to have a small number of believable policies that win public buy-in. They're starting to identify those policies (boost housing, tackle NHS waiting lists, green investment for jobs of the future, devolve power, tackle asylum backlog) but will need to make a convincing pitch to the public between now and the election - and will then need to show that serious progress is being made, if elected.

 

On Starmer's personality as leader, I imagine they'll try to win a lot more voter buy-in during the election campaign, when people will be paying a lot more attention. Part (only part) of the reason why Starmer is a bland mystery to most voters is because most voters have limited interest in politics and busy lives, so don't register more than a few news bulletins and soundbites - though partly it's due to Starmer's ultra-cautious strategy, not wanting to give hostages to fortune. People pay more attention during an election campaign, so I'd expect the party to produce a high-profile party political broadcast specifically about Starmer and to prime him to do personal interviews aiming for more public buy-in.  

 

Re. showmanship, we were discussing before how Attlee was apparently the antithesis of the showman (in contrast to the charismatic Churchill) but had a lot of focus and integrity that made him a good leader. It's possible that Starmer could turn out the same. But I tend to agree that he needs a bit more showmanship (not too much - not Johnson levels). Attlee became PM in very particular circumstances, post-war reconstruction - and when mass media was much less important.

 

Thinking of the post-war PMs, I'd say that the least charismatic (Douglas-Home, perhaps Callaghan, Brown, May, Truss & perhaps Sunak) have been those who became PM without winning elections. Thatcher in 1979 and Major in 1992 are slight exceptions for me. Posters older than me might remember 1979 differently (I was 16-17) but my recollection is that Thatcher wasn't seen as charismatic before she was elected - she developed a sort of charisma once in power. Likewise, Major was ridiculed as a "grey man" when he became PM in 1990 and never exactly became Mr. Charisma, but projected some personality in the 1992 campaign that helped the Tories win (honest John, the common man standing on his soapbox in the marketplace - literally).

 

Like Major, Starmer will never be a Johnson-like showman (thank fvck), but during the election and once (hopefully) in office, he needs to project some of the personality shown in that interview.

 

Showmanship/charisma and leadership appeal are slightly different things, though. So long as you deliver on important promises, I reckon it's possible to have leadership appeal through people understanding and approving of who you are and what you're doing as PM, without necessarily having much showmanship or charisma. Humour is an odd one, as very few PMs seem to express much humour/wit - Johnson being the obvious exception. I remember Wilson being quite witty, perhaps Callaghan a bit, but even PMs seen as having charisma, like Thatcher or Blair, didn't show much humour - maybe there's too much risk of alienating voters? Starmer generally comes across as humourless - but there were glimpses of humour in that linked interview. Without turning himself into a Johnson-like entertainer, he'd benefit from showing that more human side of himself in public.

 

Re. the EU: I reckon Starmer's strategy will be to dismiss any idea of rejoining, while trying to build a closer, mutually beneficial relationship with the EU once in office. Unless circumstances change dramatically and there's a much stronger public mood for rejoining the EU, I'd be surprised if Labour even advocated rejoining at the 2029 election. Despite having been a Remainer myself, I think that's the right strategy. It's going to take at least a decade to build any sort of decent future for the country, so a Labour or Labour-led govt would need to focus on delivering key priorities. Unless there's strong public demand, reopening the Brexit Pandora's box would risk massively diverting govt focus/energy and causing public discord.

[Jattdogg]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

That reminds me....

 

When my brother was a teenager, after some ale and possibly some mushrooms, he and his mate got talking about what crazy, fascinating creatures sheep were (we grew up in a village with sheep fields nearby).

They resolved to kidnap a sheep to keep as a pet. I'm not sure they'd thought it through particularly well. So, they went out into the fields in the night, running around trying to capture a sheep - but failed.

 

It still amuses me to think of the scenario if they'd succeeded - and had woken up in the morning, hung over with a sheep standing in the bedroom.

 

We did have escaped bullocks and horses on our front lawn on different occasions, but never sheep.

Few teen lads chasing sheep, what could have possibly happened? Maybe they didnt come home empty handed after all....lol

 

[Daggers]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Hopefully, some of the integrity and focus expressed in that interview will be conveyed to the public during the election campaign, counteracting impressions that he's just bland and ill-defined.

Will never happen.

 

He's given plenty of good interviews but the public perception remains driven by the narrative coming from billionaire media moguls. People just don't care for anything other than soundbites according with their world view.

 

At best, news organisations will see the wind change and cease the vilification but that does nothing to address the smears they've already published.