Enzo needs to be careful - the dangerous spiral

[Nolucklcfc]

Our fans have zero patience at the best of times. The style of football is something that, let’s be honest, most don’t really like. Winning games has kept people quiet. As soon as we hit a bad patch, the groans were always going to come back. That said, people have a right to be pissed off after Wednesday, that was just poor. 

[Fox92]

1 minute ago, Nolucklcfc said:

Our fans have zero patience at the best of times. The style of football is something that, let’s be honest, most don’t really like. Winning games has kept people quiet. As soon as we hit a bad patch, the groans were always going to come back. That said, people have a right to be pissed off after Wednesday, that was just poor. 

I like possession based football if it has an end product. Nowadays there's far to much of "we dominated the ball", big wow. Dominating the ball, having more possession, means nothing when you do nothing with it.

 

At the start of the season, first few months, we were playing good football with purpose and, more importantly, it was quick. Recently we've been far to slow, we end up going back a lot and it's not a shock people don't like seeing the ball go back constantly.

[sacreblueits442]

55 minutes ago, James_lcfc said:

The reaction to Wednesday was justified, but probably best to relax a bit now.

 

Got to trust that Enzo recognises we’ve been  on a bit of a downward trend performance wise for a while now.

 

Fingers crossed he’s not an Ostrich anyway!

...he is giving a good impression of one!!!

  This team is not that far off where we all see it can be, but a reluctance to take on other ideas, is going to heap pressure on himself.  We have been off it in our last 5 games, we have had International breaks in order to reset, but we are still not performing and that is down to the adjustments made by other teams, we need to match their ability to embrace a change of philosophy. 

[Nolucklcfc]

12 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

I like possession based football if it has an end product. Nowadays there's far to much of "we dominated the ball", big wow. Dominating the ball, having more possession, means nothing when you do nothing with it.

 

At the start of the season, first few months, we were playing good football with purpose and, more importantly, it was quick. Recently we've been far to slow, we end up going back a lot and it's not a shock people don't like seeing the ball go back constantly.

Agreed. 

[LCFCJohn]

2 hours ago, adejo92 said:

"We" is a pretty loose term.

 

Probably only the same people that think Enzo's football is a joy to watch. 

This is the concern for me. I like Enzo and we aren’t at the point of being close to a crisis or anything like this. He will be judged on how he responds to the first real challenge in the role.

 

But, it is likely the same people who scoffed at the possibility we would throw away a 14 point lead not once but twice for the top 4 and shouted down anyone who said we might be relegated last season who are not shouting down anyone who is raising concerns at the trend that is just starting to show now. 
 

These people have shown that they get sucked in by possession stats and tactics and don’t take a step back and look at the wider issues/context. 
 

Honestly, I was one who saw the fall in 2020 and 2021 coming and remember voicing relegation concerns as early as October 2021 (I was speaking to a Newcastle supporting mate when their takeover happened and said I hope they took Rodgers from us as we were heading down within 3 years under him, 18 months was a lot quicker than I thought though). 
 

So I am a little concerned. Not overly as each manager gets the chance to show how they can turn things around. But the pattern is something that we have seen before at its very early stages and could go either way. 

Edited 1 December 2023 by LCFCJohn

[RoboFox]

His stubbornness reminds me of a certain absolute helmet of an ex manager. 

Narcissistic sociopath Rodgers got us relegated because he refused to accept that he was wrong.

 

The mark of a top manager is adaptability. His ethos of “we live this way and we die this way” is straight up bizarre.

 

[Hammo]

As we saw on Wednesday, the slow, passive, come-and-get-the-ball-off-us approach is counter-productive (as well as tedious to watch) as it not only breeds a mindset of arrogance and complacency in our players but also offers the opposition an invitation to press hard and put us under pressure.

 

I just hope the shock visible in the body language of many of our players after their late equaliser has already brought about a dialogue with the manager that sitting casually on one-goal leads in this league (rather than ruthlessly going for the kill) is a recipe for disaster.

[inckley fox]

It's important to remember that we also had a dip or two in our last two league-topping seasons in 2014 and, a division higher, 2016. Didn't we need Kasper (or, if you like, Chris Wood) to rescue us late on in a dour 1-1 draw against someone theoretically rubbish? It's all down to how well we recover now, just as it was then.

 

The apparent insistence of an inexperienced boss on absolutely no flexibility whatsoever worries me, as it should everyone else, but he's shown that he can meet expectations already. Despite my many reservations, I'll give him ample opportunity over the next ten games to deliver again.

[LCFCJohn]

2 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

It's important to remember that we also had a dip or two in our last two league-topping seasons in 2014 and, a division higher, 2016. Didn't we need Kasper (or, if you like, Chris Wood) to rescue us late on in a dour 1-1 draw against someone theoretically rubbish? It's all down to how well we recover now, just as it was then.

 

The apparent insistence of an inexperienced boss on absolutely no flexibility whatsoever worries me, as it should everyone else, but he's shown that he can meet expectations already. Despite my many reservations, I'll give him ample opportunity over the next ten games to deliver again.

That was Yeovil. 
 

I may be revising history in my head here but it felt in 2013/14 that we didn’t really have a bad spell as such, and the bad results were just dotted about across the season. I may be wrong as I say. Performance wise, I also remember us being very consistent in not having long runs of poor performances.

 

2016, there wasn’t really? We lost to Liverpool at Christmas, followed by a couple of draws with Mahrez showing why for all his strengths, he should take pens!

[inckley fox]

Just now, LCFCJohn said:

That was Yeovil. 
 

I may be revising history in my head here but it felt in 2013/14 that we didn’t really have a bad spell as such, and the bad results were just dotted about across the season. I may be wrong as I say. Performance wise, I also remember us being very consistent in not having long runs of poor performances.

 

2016, there wasn’t really? We lost to Liverpool at Christmas, followed by a couple of draws with Mahrez showing why for all his strengths, he should take pens!

Yes, that's the 2015-16 dip I was on about. Perhaps less marked than this one, and less worrying given what expectations were at the time.

 

Two years earlier, yes, you're right. Those poor results were dotted about. I was just trying to be upbeat after spending a day or two complaining!

[moore_94]

23 minutes ago, LCFCJohn said:

That was Yeovil. 
 

I may be revising history in my head here but it felt in 2013/14 that we didn’t really have a bad spell as such, and the bad results were just dotted about across the season. I may be wrong as I say. Performance wise, I also remember us being very consistent in not having long runs of poor performances.

 

2016, there wasn’t really? We lost to Liverpool at Christmas, followed by a couple of draws with Mahrez showing why for all his strengths, he should take pens!

November / December we had a poor run of results in 13/14

 

2 wins, 1 draw, and 3 defeats in 6 games

[cruzFOX]

We still owe Enzo some latitude. Yes these performances are simply not good enough and he came out and said so in general and specific players. I think we will see a major response against the baggies this weekend. Hope we win emphatically and then sustain that run with consistency. Easier said than done I know but that’s what we really need. Cmon foxes 

[filbertway]

3 hours ago, LCFCJohn said:

This is the concern for me. I like Enzo and we aren’t at the point of being close to a crisis or anything like this. He will be judged on how he responds to the first real challenge in the role.

 

But, it is likely the same people who scoffed at the possibility we would throw away a 14 point lead not once but twice for the top 4 and shouted down anyone who said we might be relegated last season who are not shouting down anyone who is raising concerns at the trend that is just starting to show now. 
 

These people have shown that they get sucked in by possession stats and tactics and don’t take a step back and look at the wider issues/context. 
 

Honestly, I was one who saw the fall in 2020 and 2021 coming and remember voicing relegation concerns as early as October 2021 (I was speaking to a Newcastle supporting mate when their takeover happened and said I hope they took Rodgers from us as we were heading down within 3 years under him, 18 months was a lot quicker than I thought though). 
 

So I am a little concerned. Not overly as each manager gets the chance to show how they can turn things around. But the pattern is something that we have seen before at its very early stages and could go either way. 

Had this conversation with a few people and pretty much said exactly what you've said.

 

You can handle rough patches as long as you have faith that the manager will learn and improve from it. As soon as you start seeing a manager consistently fail to adapt you know that the performances and results will trend downwards. The only thing then is waiting to see how many anomaly "highs" you get that delay the inevitable.

 

As you say, nowhere near that stage yet. It'll certainly be interesting to see how things develop over the next month or two, fingers crossed Enzo finds a way to adapt and we're looking a lot better. Should certainly be helped by the return of Yunus, Wilf and Praet. Also with Alves getting closer. 

 

[Foxin_Mad]

Its more the performances that bother me. We hvaent really looked good once. All teams have bad results, even bad spells but our performances in general have been mediocre at best. There a far better sides in this division, probably 4 or 5. 

[Les-TA-Jon]

15 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Its more the performances that bother me. We hvaent really looked good once. All teams have bad results, even bad spells but our performances in general have been mediocre at best. There a far better sides in this division, probably 4 or 5. 

Hyperbole much? 

[Simonb]

It's a difficult one.. I like his calmness, and I like the formation.

 

However, I don't like the pace we play at. We've got proper strikers in abundance and pacey wingers.. but it's pointless having all that when you move the ball forward at one mile an hour and deny them all space due to the defenders having time to get in position. 

 

I think he's trying to be too clever and literally find that perfect goal, when if we upped the pace we'd batter this league. 

 

We'd give away a lot less chances too playing on the front foot. We must give away 5 clear cut chances every game from being lethargic on the ball

 

As for his comment about.. if you don't like it, support someone else... we were here before Enzo and will be after.. bit of a dumb thing to say.

 

 

All that said, I still genuinely think him being here is the right appointment, he's generally calmed the place down and got everyone moving the same way. But he's got to let the team off the reins and play more attacking.. must be so frustrating to play this way

[Dahnsouff]

Just going to leave this comment here for when the naysayers state they only want provide balance

 

’I see no ships’

[Paninistickers]

I'm 50/50 on him. I'm.absolutley convinced this system is making heavy weather of the division (in spite of the lead at the top) and a more pragmatic approach would see us up easy.

 

but I like the fact he's absolutely convinced by it. He's totally obsessed it seems on his conviction that this way is the right way. 

[Ian Nacho]

Of course I have been concerned by the performances but I do think there has been a slight over reaction on here.

The Championship is a different beast to most divisions and top teams do drop points when they really shouldn't. Looking at past seasons Sheffield United got promoted with 11 losses, and Fulham won the league with 10 losses the season before. 

We do need a reaction but the wheels have far from come off. 

[cityfanlee23]

7 hours ago, Nolucklcfc said:

Our fans have zero patience at the best of times. The style of football is something that, let’s be honest, most don’t really like. Winning games has kept people quiet. As soon as we hit a bad patch, the groans were always going to come back. That said, people have a right to be pissed off after Wednesday, that was just poor. 

I think people would be willing to give more patience if we could see a pattern of improvement even if it was slow. 
So far we’ve seen a regression since the early few games and we look completely over coached and unwilling to take many risks even when we have the quality to bury games quickly (not that this is always the expectation but we don’t even attempt to) 

 

At the moment the people who are talking about how good we will be when we “click” have every right to do that, but it’s not based on any evidence, just faith. 
 

Based on the regression we’ve seen over the last 5-7 games where we’ve looked less dangerous and more prone to mistakes, it looks at this moment in time less like the team is “gelling” and “close to clicking” and more like a new manager bounce is wearing off. 
I’m not saying the NMB is the reason why we are top, not at all but it’s definitely a factor as there’s no doubt Enzo has shifted the feeling around the club dramatically, but there’s just no real evidence that we are improving. It’s very early days, but if fans are expected to be patient there has to be some visible improvements and they don’t need to be dramatic. 
 

[Dan LCFC]

I have to say I am seeing more and more red flags. I hope it's a blip but the truth is I don't think our fans, rightly or wrongly have really bought into us yet as a collective. Now you can say we are top of the league, that is true, but we haven't won it yet and we also, frankly, should be. We have the biggest transfer and wage budget in the division and the best squad. I think when we had 13 wins out of 14 you really couldn't moan much at all. But a run like the last four games has knocked us down to about par for what our resources and squad should really be achieving in my eyes.

 

You do get a sense that results have caught up with performances a bit. I think in the first 5 games (Coventry to Hull) we were ordinary but effective, the next block (Southampton to Swansea) we were very good, winning every game and nearly all by 2+ goals, but from Sunderland to Sheffield Wednesday we've been bang average at best, even for this league, having faced a mix of opposition and two of the worst sides in the division in QPR & Sheffield Wednesday.

 

We have the gap and the advantage, and I think that could well up being the difference between now and the end, but make no mistake the points threshold to get a top two finish this season looks like it will be the highest in the leagues history. It really could take 97 or something to get even 2nd let alone 1st.

 

I still think we will go up but I've definitely reigned in some of what I thought a few weeks ago. The cracks are appearing, and you do wonder if his inexperience may show up somewhat here. It's his first proper test.

[LCFCJohn]

5 hours ago, moore_94 said:

November / December we had a poor run of results in 13/14

 

2 wins, 1 draw, and 3 defeats in 6 games

Fair enough 👍. I had a quick flick through that seasons results earlier but didn’t notice that as I was looking actually to see what the biggest wins were that season. I was surprised it was only by 3 goals but we had so many 2-1 wins. But yeah didn’t see that particular run. To be fair only a defeat tomorrow from that being the current 6 game run of form….

[ARM1968]

I can see issues now. Far from improving and going up the gears we’ve gone backwards and our polenta have learnt from the Leeds game. 
 

Swashbuckling risks at the back, where it can and will hurt us, but negative risk averse attacking. It’s odd. Possession for possessions sake is not it and never will be the way. It seemed we were being more progressive earlier in the season. 
 

Funny thing, we’ve seen us storm away early season only to collapse after Christmas. Are we a month or so early?

 

I'm concerned. 
 

 

[Beachyboy]

10 hours ago, Nolucklcfc said:

Our fans have zero patience at the best of times. The style of football is something that, let’s be honest, most don’t really like. Winning games has kept people quiet. As soon as we hit a bad patch, the groans were always going to come back. That said, people have a right to be pissed off after Wednesday, that was just poor. 

Style of football who do our fans think they are? West Ham, Spurs? One of the reasons, I like Leicester is usually the team picks the most affective way to win a match and overachieve compared to the sum of their parts. The trouble with this season is some will think even if we win the league by 10 points that isn’t overachieving. A blip was always going to come, I actually think we will find some games in the premiership easier next season, even without a single addition to the squad. This team would be 14th or 15th in the premiership right now. An for those that say Burnley, Luton and Sheff utd won't be in the league next season, I say If they aren't Wolves, Everton (maybe) Palace, Brentford, Bournemouth, Fulham and Forest will be.

Edited 1 December 2023 by Beachyboy

[The Year Of The Fox]

10 hours ago, Fox92 said:

I like possession based football if it has an end product. Nowadays there's far to much of "we dominated the ball", big wow. Dominating the ball, having more possession, means nothing when you do nothing with it.

 

At the start of the season, first few months, we were playing good football with purpose and, more importantly, it was quick. Recently we've been far to slow, we end up going back a lot and it's not a shock people don't like seeing the ball go back constantly.

It’s incredible as Leicester fans that some of us use this argument, given we achieved the impossible using minimal possession.

 

‘The games changed though’ 🤥