Scottish Independence Poll

[Jordan]

There's an interesting analysis of the results in today's Grauniad: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2014/sep/18/-sp-scottish-independence-referendum-results-in-full?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2. The only two councils with large(ish) majorities in favour of independence had the lowest turnouts: Dundee (78.8%) and Glasgow (75%). I wonder if some potential "No" voters were put off from voting.

I would guess that the opposite is true with regards to turnout by side. Based on support for SNP past elections, I'd have supposed Yes Scotland possibly expected, but certainly would have hoped, that Dundee would have had much more Yes votes. Glasgow is a different case, but the Yes path to victory involved a significant margin of victory there while the actual vote went more along the lines of what experts expected.

Turnout was lower as a percentage of the electorate there, but it was still excellent, and those cities average lower turnout than Scotland as a whole. Had turnout been a little higher in Dundee and Glasgow, I doubt that it would have made a difference either way.

There's an interesting analysis of the results in today's Grauniad: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2014/sep/18/-sp-scottish-independence-referendum-results-in-full?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2. The only two councils with large(ish) majorities in favour of independence had the lowest turnouts: Dundee (78.8%) and Glasgow (75%). I wonder if some potential "No" voters were put off from voting.

I would guess that the opposite is true with regards to turnout by side. Based on support for SNP past elections, I'd have supposed Yes Scotland possibly expected, but certainly would have hoped, that Dundee would have had much more Yes votes. Glasgow is a different case, but the Yes path to victory involved a significant margin of victory there while the actual vote went more along the lines of what experts expected.

Turnout was lower as a percentage of the electorate there, but it was still excellent, and those cities average lower turnout than Scotland as a whole. Had turnout been a little higher in Dundee and Glasgow, I doubt that it would have made a difference either way.

[Matt]

So now it's over and they've had their say, can we (England) have a vote on whether we want them or not?

[leicsmac]

So now it's over and they've had their say, can we (England) have a vote on whether we want them or not?

 

Would end up the same way for the same reasons, viz. not enough nationalistic planks.

[David Guiza]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but what are your thoughts on a federalised UK? Germany and the States have obviously had great failure and success with it. I just feel as though London has lost touch with the rest of the UK and the gap between them and the rest of Britain is ever growing. Scotland saying no was the right decision at this point of time, but I do think there should be greater devolved powers.

[Alf Bentley]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but what are your thoughts on a federalised UK? Germany and the States have obviously had great failure and success with it. I just feel as though London has lost touch with the rest of the UK and the gap between them and the rest of Britain is ever growing. Scotland saying no was the right decision at this point of time, but I do think there should be greater devolved powers.

 

I'd definitely be in favour of more decentralisation of power, partly for the reason that you quote: unhealthy divisions between different parts of both England and the UK, combined with too much of a Westminster focus. It would be better for it to be properly thought through and consulted over, though, not rushed through before the election. Some more guaranteed devolution for Scotland, "English votes for English laws" at Westminster and tackling the Barnett formula  of funding Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland ought to be enough before the election. The parties could then put any further proposals in their election manifestos, and legislate for them if elected to government.

 

I don't know about full-blown federalism, though. I think that I'm right in saying that, in the USA and Germany, roughly the same amount of power is devolved to each US state or German "Land", even though particular states or Länder may exert more influence through being richer or bigger. But there simply isn't the demand for that in the UK yet - for, say, Lancashire or the East Midlands to have their own parliament with tax-raising powers, while there IS a demand for that in Scotland. 

 

An uneven form of devolution is one option - like in Spain, where different amounts of power are devolved to different "autonomous regions": a lot to Catalonia and the Basque Country, a bit less to Galicia and Andalusia, a lot less to the rest. That ends up generating a long-term tug-of-war between central and regional government, which keeps wanting more power devolved....but it's certainly better than more serious conflict.

 

Peter Soulsby was on the local news at lunchtime, responding to Cameron's call for more "empowerment of our great cities" by calling for Leicester to have more tax-raising powers (cue waves of derision on here!). So, devolving more powers, including tax-and-spend powers, from central government to existing councils would be another option - and would avoid the complex and potentially costly process of setting up loads of new institutions. In due course, local councils might be grouped together in regions if there was the demand for it....but there hasn't been in most parts of England yet. 

[Guest MattP]

More tax rising powers to Leicester would be just that though wouldn't it?

Soulsby wouldn't be allowed to pillage the County people to fund his melas and mosques.

I'd like to see him held accountable for taxation and spending in the Leicester area.

[David Guiza]

I'd definitely be in favour of more decentralisation of power, partly for the reason that you quote: unhealthy divisions between different parts of both England and the UK, combined with too much of a Westminster focus. It would be better for it to be properly thought through and consulted over, though, not rushed through before the election. Some more guaranteed devolution for Scotland, "English votes for English laws" at Westminster and tackling the Barnett formula  of funding Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland ought to be enough before the election. The parties could then put any further proposals in their election manifestos, and legislate for them if elected to government.

 

I don't know about full-blown federalism, though. I think that I'm right in saying that, in the USA and Germany, roughly the same amount of power is devolved to each US state or German "Land", even though particular states or Länder may exert more influence through being richer or bigger. But there simply isn't the demand for that in the UK yet - for, say, Lancashire or the East Midlands to have their own parliament with tax-raising powers, while there IS a demand for that in Scotland. 

 

An uneven form of devolution is one option - like in Spain, where different amounts of power are devolved to different "autonomous regions": a lot to Catalonia and the Basque Country, a bit less to Galicia and Andalusia, a lot less to the rest. That ends up generating a long-term tug-of-war between central and regional government, which keeps wanting more power devolved....but it's certainly better than more serious conflict.

 

Peter Soulsby was on the local news at lunchtime, responding to Cameron's call for more "empowerment of our great cities" by calling for Leicester to have more tax-raising powers (cue waves of derision on here!). So, devolving more powers, including tax-and-spend powers, from central government to existing councils would be another option - and would avoid the complex and potentially costly process of setting up loads of new institutions. In due course, local councils might be grouped together in regions if there was the demand for it....but there hasn't been in most parts of England yet. 

The Spanish system would be interesting to see in the UK, definitely. There would be the obvious arguments, as you have mentioned, but it would certainly allow areas such as the North West, who are so far from Westminster in every sence of the word, to have a much greater say on their own matters. I don't think we're big enough, geographically or in population, for a complete federal system to work - but there are certainly aspects of it that would benefit the UK hugely.  

[yorkie1999]

The most ridiculous thing to come out of all this is allowing 16 and 17 year olds the power to vote, and then backing it up by announcing because there were so many, it showed a high level of responsibility. Yeah right.

   "Okay class, if you want to vote, you may have the afternoon off.  (Even if you have no responsibilities in life, no children to worry about, no mortgage or job to lose and the only thing you give a shit about is where you can get your next shag)"  

[Webbo]

1 thing we definitely don't want is regional assemblies. We haven't just saved the union to break up England. I don't have a problem with councils having more power but the last thing we need is another layer of politicians on the gravy train.

[purpleronnie]

If Salmond wasn't odious enough he gets replaced by Sturgeon  .

 

Smells a bit fishy.

[Guest MattP]

I'll miss Alex Salmond, didn't agree with his politics but he was affable, a wonderful orator.

 

We need more Alex Salmond's in politics, free thinkers and men who dare to dream of something different.

[Alf Bentley]

Anyone fancy a guess at what this guy voted?

 

 

At first I thought that was Private Pike from Dad's Army gone tartan on us...then I noticed that his name was Fraser, of all things!

 

I reckon Private Fraser would have voted "No". He'd have been affected by the "fear factor" - "we're doomed"...

 

Re. Salmond, he's certainly been a very good speaker and a cunning tactician. Time will tell, but Sturgeon doesn't seem over-endowed with charisma. I wonder if this might now turn out to be the high tide mark for Scottish nationalism?

 

Given all the machine politics, media management and focus groups in politics these days, it's quite surprising how much one individual can still affect a party's popularity.

Without Salmond, the SNP would probably have got nowhere near forming a government in Scotland, never mind within a 5% swing of independence. Same applies with UKIP and Farage, in my opinion.

[ADK]

Anyone fancy a guess at what this guy voted?

 

 

Full kit willy puller...

[Guest MattP]

At first I thought that was Private Pike from Dad's Army gone tartan on us...then I noticed that his name was Fraser, of all things!

 

I reckon Private Fraser would have voted "No". He'd have been affected by the "fear factor" - "we're doomed"...

 

Re. Salmond, he's certainly been a very good speaker and a cunning tactician. Time will tell, but Sturgeon doesn't seem over-endowed with charisma. I wonder if this might now turn out to be the high tide mark for Scottish nationalism?

 

Given all the machine politics, media management and focus groups in politics these days, it's quite surprising how much one individual can still affect a party's popularity.

Without Salmond, the SNP would probably have got nowhere near forming a government in Scotland, never mind within a 5% swing of independence. Same applies with UKIP and Farage, in my opinion.

 

Second line reminds me of this from yesterday.. http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/salmond-votes-no-2014091890806

 

It's absolutely huge, remember the spike UKIP had when Kilroy took over for a bit as well? Then it got handed over to someone whose name I forget and they fell down again until NFF (like what I did there?) came back to take over.

 

Sturgeon is clearly the natural successor but yep, she doesn't have anything like the charisma of Salmond, taking over from someone who has been in charge that long and oversaw a period of success never seems to go well either, that said, the hatred of the yes campaign towards the Labour party might just see the SNP to power again in the next Scottish Elections, that's probably the most heated rivalry in British politics now, a quick glance on Twitter and you can see the hate between the two.

 

Mike Natrass, that was the UKIP leader's name.

 

Full kit willy puller...

 

 

Or even 'Full Kilt willy puller' 

[purpleronnie]

 

Or even 'Full Kilt willy puller' 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seems the Russians aren't happy.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/russia-calls-foul-scottish-referendum?CMP=twt_gu

 

 

Russia cries foul over Scottish independence vote

Russian observers say referendum count took place in rooms that were too big and did not meet international standards

•  

Ballot boxes are opened as counting begins in the Scottish referendum in Aberdeen. Photograph: Scott Heppell/AP

Russia has said the conduct of the Scottish referendum "did not meet international standards", with its observers complaining the count took place in rooms that were too big and that the procedure was badly flawed.

In an apparent attempt to mirror persistent western criticism of Russia's own elections, Igor Borisov – an accredited observer – said the poll failed to meet basic international norms.

 

Borisov and three other Russians arrived in Edinburgh on Wednesday evening, the state news agency Ria Novosti reported. The team from Moscow's Public Institute of Suffrage watched voting take place in the Scottish capital and the surrounding area. It also met with Scottish politicians, voters and representatives from non-governmental organisations, Ria said.

Borisov said he was unimpressed by what he saw. He said the room where he watched the count on Thursday night was a cavernous "aircraft hangar" next to an airfield. It was difficult to see what was going on, he said, adding: "The hangar is approximately 100m by 300m. There are tables, with voting papers stacked upon them, but the observers are stuck around the perimeter. Even if you want to, it's impossible to tell what's happening. It's also unclear where the boxes with ballot papers come from."

 

Borisov said the US state department, the UK and other western countries loudly hectored the Kremlin about Russia's supposed democratic deficiencies. But in this instance, he said, London and Edinburgh had not "fully met" the requirements of a proper referendum.

"Nobody was interested in who was bringing in the voting slips. There were no stamps or signatures as the bulletins were handed over," he said.

Supporters of the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, had been fervently hoping for a yes vote. Some Russian nationalists had even fixed yes badges to their Twitter profiles, with one –Konstantin Rykov – adding a "Mc" to the front of his Cyrillic surname. (The badge and "Mc" had disappeared by Friday morning). The Kremlin apparently saw Scottish independence as a way of justifying its own hasty annexation of Crimea in March, following a "referendum" conducted in just three weeks and condemned by the west, as armed Russian forces and irregulars swarmed over the Crimean peninsula. Moscow also felt that a yes vote would weaken the UK and bring to power a post-independence Scottish government more amenable to Moscow's wishes. Alex Salmond, Scotland's first minister, expressed qualified admiration for President Putin in an interview with GQ in March.

The Kremlin propaganda channel RT, meanwhile, speculated that the result might have been rigged and expressed surprise at the "North Korean" levels of turnout.

 

Afshin Rattansi, the presenter of RT's Going Underground show, said there were "international considerations", such as the UK's nuclear deterrent, which had affected the outcome. He said: "With the vote as close as this, with the mainstream media on one side, with a massive amount of people from Westminster running up to beg Scotland the other way, and certain recounts in certain bits of the poll, which way did the vote go, really?"

 

He added: "It is normally the sort of turnout you would expect in North Korea. Usually media here would go 'we don't believe it. How can it be nearly 90%?'"

 

On Friday the Donetsk People's Republic - the Ukrainian rebel enclave - said that it, too, believed the Scottish referendum had been falsified. Miroslav Rudenko, a member of the republic's self-declared supreme council, said he suspected the UK government was guilty of foul play. "I don't rule out that the British authorities have falsified the results of this referendum. The difference between those who voted in favour of independence and against it is not so great," he told the Russian news agency Interfax.

Rudenko said the west was guilty of "double-standards". It had allowed a referendum in Scotland but refused one for Donestk and Luhansk, the rebel enclaves where separatists backed by Kremlin firepower are fighting Ukrainian troops.

 

 

 

 

.

 

[RobHawk]

Had an interview this week, it looks a possibility as I thought it went very well. No drink for me last night mate, I'm a solid Mon-Thurs non drinker these days, firm belief the body needs time to recover. Certainly back on it today mind.....

Is it just me or is Matt sounding more and more like Lamby (before he got a new job)????

[Trav Le Bleu]

Anyone fancy a guess at what this guy voted?

 

 

I don't want to know which way he swings.

[Carl the Llama]

Is it just me or is Matt sounding more and more like Lamby (before he got a new job)????

No, he clearly mentions attending an interview.

[yorkie1999]

Looks like it's getting a bit heated in st georges square at the moment.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Salmond to Quit

[Vacamion]

I was told it was going to kick off there and told my wife to come home via a different route tonight (she usually crosses George Sq).

 

It will really kick off when the Yessers march on the BBC ("The Biased Bollocks Corporation" they call it) later.

 

 

On a separate note...

 

The SNP could have wee Nicola running it.  The Scottish Tories have Ruth Davidson, who, apropos of nothing, "wears comfortable shoes"   and Labour have Johann Lamont.

 

That's Girl Power! The Scotish Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie (who I quite like) is gonna feel that he has too many baws and not enough ovaries...

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Over the moon! , My 50% Scottish blood was racing. Sat up all night and polished off a bottle of Scotch, and a couple of bottles of beer. Well done to all sensible Scotsmen.

 

Go and eat snow, you little ****, Salmond.

[johnny the fox]

I would be a bit worried standing next to a kilted jock at the urinal....how does that fookin work?

[purpleronnie]

I would be a bit worried standing next to a kilted jock at the urinal....how does that fookin work?

Given they're wearing a skirt they'll probably opt for the womens toilet instead.

[johnny the fox]

Given they're wearing a skirt they'll probably opt for the womens toilet instead.

Mmmmm    might try that.. if they need a penny my sporran is always available..