davieG Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 10 minutes ago, Sammy said: problem with that then is you're trying to make defenders completely lose their arms. You'll see defenders blocking crosses/going in to tackles with hands behind their back which just isn't natural and doesn't work, but I agree with the idea or at least the need for the FA to do something about it It's not a lot to do with the FA it's FIFA that manage the laws of the game and it's up to them to clarify how they should be interpreted. The FA are just a link in the chain but hand out the punishments so we end up the 3 possibly 4 levels of interpretation the ref, FA, UEFA and FIFA.
Sammy Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 6 minutes ago, davieG said: It's not a lot to do with the FA it's FIFA that manage the laws of the game and it's up to them to clarify how they should be interpreted. The FA are just a link in the chain but hand out the punishments so we end up the 3 possibly 4 levels of interpretation the ref, FA, UEFA and FIFA. Yeah fair enough, but I don't think it would be prevented by anyone if the FA were at the very least to get their refs to abide by the same interpretation of the law.
davieG Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 2 minutes ago, Sammy said: Yeah fair enough, but I don't think it would be prevented by anyone if the FA were at the very least to get their refs to abide by the same interpretation of the law. Oh I agree but I doubt there's even consistency of thought within the FA like a lot of the laws they're subjective and it seems to me every time FIFA try to clarify them and make them fairer they make them even more confusing and evermore subjective.
Sammy Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 1 minute ago, davieG said: Oh I agree but I doubt there's even consistency of thought within the FA like a lot of the laws they're subjective and it seems to me every time FIFA try to clarify them and make them fairer they make them even more confusing and evermore subjective. Yeah agreed, even if there is that lack of consistency throughout the FA you'd hope that they would acknowledge that fans want to see consistency of decisions across the season and so briefing their refs to try and stick to a single interpretation of the subjective laws would be so much better than leaving refs to pick and choose dependent on how they feel!
mad biker Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 1 hour ago, davieG said: Hmm Vardy's arm looks really u natural Brilliant point !
norwichfox Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 The question we should be asking is "was that cnut really a referee. Even Kasper was laughing at his decisions in disbelief at what was going on. Hughes face when the camera went on it a few times looked embarrassed, as though he was thinking "what the fook is this tw@ doing, does he need to make the brown envelope quite so obvious" He should never referee another premier league game again, in fact any professional game again. In answer to the OP question, I'd say it was deliberate, he was just making himself bigger when he went down....probably the only thing he got right. It was a farce, even booked the wrong Stoke player for a foul.
dynamark Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 Of course it wasn't deliberate Simo knew nothing about it he was trying to block a cross ball nearly hit his head. A slight diversion of the ball probably wouldn't have been given as a pen but the ball direction changed ,everyones up and shouting pen
purpleronnie Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 If a stoke player had handled it in their box we'd all be saying it was definitely a pen.
Kitchandro Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 It's not deliberate, so not a penalty. 'Unnatural position' has nothing to do with it, handball has to be deliberate. The real problem is that the referee's do not enforce the rules. They don't give penalties for for deliberate handball's only (which is the rule). I'd be annoyed if that Simpson handball had been done by a Stoke player and a penalty wasn't given. But not because it was a penalty, because it wasn't, but because they are given 9 times out of 10. They either need to change the rule, or referees need to enforce the current one.
foxinsocks Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 They should appeal the yellow.... just to show the ref messed up
fuchsntf Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 Looking it straight, being bias...to be fair, honestly, putting the cards on the table. Penalty...any doubts are thrown out the window, if you noticed it actually hit his hand, he knew what he was doing, natural position, natural movement, here or there, hes a defender, he aint daft, he knows like all defenders of 10yrs plus experience, he might not of meant it..Dont care..He had a top game, but a penalty. For that not stupid, but for his arguing and dissent, silly and stupid.. one last time..good for the banter, but penalty..
Countryfox Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 27 minutes ago, fuchsntf said: he knew what he was doing, Thats how I saw it ... happened right in front of me and his face said "Bolox that wasn't what was meant to happen !" ... then he yarped off and drew a booking. Don't blame him though ... wrong decision at the time but hindsight and all that.
UPinCarolina Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 Harsh, perhaps to given the peno - but Simpson played an excellent match otherwise and hasn't had as many bonehead moments as past years.
Barky Posted 18 December 2016 Posted 18 December 2016 57 minutes ago, Kitchandro said: It's not deliberate, so not a penalty. 'Unnatural position' has nothing to do with it, handball has to be deliberate. The real problem is that the referee's do not enforce the rules. They don't give penalties for for deliberate handball's only (which is the rule). I'd be annoyed if that Simpson handball had been done by a Stoke player and a penalty wasn't given. But not because it was a penalty, because it wasn't, but because they are given 9 times out of 10. They either need to change the rule, or referees need to enforce the current one. Trouble is it's impossible to know if a handball is deliberate because referees aren't psychic, so they have to expand on that by applying tests. The main test for handball seems to be whether or not the arm is in an unnatural position. If it is, they take that to mean it was deliberate and therefore a handball. So they are in effect making their best attempt at applying the rule correctly, but the problem is that the test isn't perfect - it's hard to establish what is and isn't natural when bodies are flying in, and some positions that look unnatural aren't actually deliberate, which is what we saw yesterday.
erlee Posted 19 December 2016 Posted 19 December 2016 On 12/18/2016 at 19:28, Barky said: Why would you give it if the rules say it has to be deliberate and you don't think it was deliberate? The rules don't say anything about unnatural position, do they? That's just a test to help establish whether or not it's deliberate. If you don't think it's deliberate right off the bat then it's simply not a penalty regardless of whether the arm position was natural or not. You say you're a ref, are you Craig Pawson? why don't you sit for a FIFA accredited ref exam then?
erlee Posted 19 December 2016 Posted 19 December 2016 23 hours ago, Kitchandro said: It's not deliberate, so not a penalty. 'Unnatural position' has nothing to do with it, handball has to be deliberate. The real problem is that the referee's do not enforce the rules. They don't give penalties for for deliberate handball's only (which is the rule). I'd be annoyed if that Simpson handball had been done by a Stoke player and a penalty wasn't given. But not because it was a penalty, because it wasn't, but because they are given 9 times out of 10. They either need to change the rule, or referees need to enforce the current one. so you are asking the ref to guess if you have deliberate intent or not..??? you leaped up with all your arms flaying in a free kick situation ..and the ball struck one of your arms.. you said to the ref "Hey i jumped..but that wasn't deliberate..i didn't meant for the ball to strike me - blame that guy who took the freekick. he was aiming for my flaying arm"
ealingfox Posted 19 December 2016 Posted 19 December 2016 Frustrating and a tad unlucky but not too many complaints from me about the pen. I know I'd have been furious if that hadn't been given our way.
Itsthejoeker Posted 19 December 2016 Posted 19 December 2016 If that was deliberate why isn't Simpson out back up keeper?
Manwell Pablo Posted 19 December 2016 Posted 19 December 2016 31 minutes ago, Itsthejoeker said: If that was deliberate why isn't Simpson out back up keeper? The problem we have here is people are taking a very basic summary of the rule and taking it as it's written in Black and White. I know it says deliberate, but the instructions referees are given and taught on the mandatory courses they have to attend go into much much deeper detail into what constitutes "deliberate" handball and it is not just someone knowingly flapping their hand at the ball. Well if it is no one is applying the rule properly, lets face it, if the law is black and white has to be consciously applying hand to ball then you'd hardly ever get a penalty for handball. I'm finding it quite hard to believe you can throw your arm out into a unnatural position where the ball could strike it and you could gain an advantage from it and that be legal because you technically didn't consciously apply hand to ball, in fact that notion seems utterly ridiculous. Anyway, I've asked someone who will know hopefully.
Finnegan Posted 19 December 2016 Posted 19 December 2016 By the rule of "how would you feel if it wasn't given the other end" it's a clear pen let's be honest. It's not deliberate, if you watch Simpson regularly you know his arms are always all over the place because he runs like he a worn out stretch armstrong with late stage Huntington's but the ref can't know that. By all accounts it's always going to be given by any tidy ref. Vardy's was never a red though and probably gets withdrawn.
foxy boxing Posted 19 December 2016 Posted 19 December 2016 the arm was raised so it was a penalty but it probably wasn't deliberate, if that wasn't given for us we'd be fuming
dannythefox Posted 19 December 2016 Posted 19 December 2016 Not deliberate handball but not many would get away with it.
Manwell Pablo Posted 19 December 2016 Posted 19 December 2016 To clarify Referees are given much more information than the "deliberate" ruling in FIFA's laws. And it does include taking proximity and whether the arm is in a natural position into account.
MrSpaM Posted 19 December 2016 Posted 19 December 2016 I think the way the refs see it, is that if you are going to ground, the natural thing is to try and stop yourself hitting the ground too hard with your arms, not flail your arms in the air Can't really moan at the decision tbh
Bedford Fox Posted 19 December 2016 Posted 19 December 2016 On 12/18/2016 at 12:29, purpleronnie said: If a stoke player had handled it in their box we'd all be saying it was definitely a pen. Yeah, I think it has to be a pen. Annoying because it is not deliberate but it has to be a penalty. I'd be screaming for it if it was the other end.
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