Unpopular Opinions You Hold

[Samilktray]

Converse Chuck 70s are the greatest shoe of all time imo 

[Carl the Llama]

Monster Munch is an over-rated snack.  90% air and what little substance they do have finds its way exclusively to the gaps in and around your teeth.

[ealingfox]

6 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Monster Munch is an over-rated snack.  90% air and what little substance they do have finds its way exclusively to the gaps in and around your teeth.

 

I have to agree. They've also changed the recipe for the pickled onion one recently and it's now nowhere near as good.

[brucey]

24 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

The principal reason is to respect trans people's gender identities.  Trans people are a small minority so it makes sense that most of the people you see doing it aren't trans, most of the people you see doing anything aren't trans.

 

One good example of the practice in action is Games Done Quick:  They're a twitch/youtube channel which showcases speedruns of various games and hold charity events throughout the year for various good causes, for instance they have an even on right now (Summer Games Done Quick) in support of Medecins sans Frontieres.  On their streams they'll display the name of the runner and any people co-commentating along with their pronouns.  It's quite handy because speedrunning is an inclusive community with a few trans people and it's not always immediately obvious from a person's voice or appearance what their gender identity is, adding that reminder helps people in the comments to respect them.  Cisgender people indicating their pronouns is generally an act of solidarity, normalising the practice.  Of course there'll be attention seekers jumping on the 'bandwagon', but where they aren't causing harm just call it the right cause for the wrong reason.

People volunteering their pronouns = cool. 

People being asked their pronouns = not cool. 

 

Some people don't realise that the latter can be problematic. I've seen examples of companies who have asked everyone to add their pronouns to their email signatures to normalise it. Someone has also asked me my pronouns in real life. They don't realise that not all trans-identified people are "out", and asking them for their pronouns is essentially asking them to either out themselves or straight up lie. 

 

I personally believe pronouns should be an indicator of how others honestly perceive me. Not how I wish to be perceived/called. I know most people feel differently, but then there's a slippery slope from that into neopronouns. 

[fuchsntf]

On 01/07/2021 at 22:55, RumbleFox said:

It’s genuinely insane how good they are. It’s the same as Messi and Ronaldo. It’s hard for many older people to acknowledge that they’re better than the heroes of their youth but statistically they’re all insanely good and the best at what they do, ever. I just find the Djokovic one weird as he still doesn’t seem to be talked about in quite the same way as the other two. I personally don’t like him very much and kinda don’t want him to beat their records but I’m pretty sure he will. If you add to that he has winning records against both of them I’d actually argue it’s not even a contest, I think he’ll retire comfortably the greatest of all time. Still don’t like him much mind.
 

I wonder if those three and Messi and Ronaldo are freaks and we’re just lucky to be witnessing them or, with the continued advances in training, diet, professionalism, etc whether these absolute beasts will become more common place. X 

I know alot of People of my generation who recognise & respect the modern Athletes achievements...

All generations make comparison & Live on their long & Short memories...

successful or idolised Sportsman will remain the best of their era in peoples memories...

Then Some dozos, Love to make Impossible comparisons...over who is/was The best ever...

I for one Enjoy the sportsman/Women of their time...So much has changed across all Sports over the generations...

Even back in my young days, Pele,Yashin,Banks, Gerson, Jairzheno,Riva,De.Stefano,Puskas....gave us Great memories,But Not even well travelled journalists

seen these last great players, regular has the normal fan Today see their idols. 

Stories , Media Reports and columnists, were our First vehicles to the Romance of all sports..

Today we See most live,or regular highlights...So no Great-grandad or older grandad would of  seen enough of the sport to make their own judgements.

Many wouldnt of ever seen the Great Olympiadans achievements many were reliant on radio, or Media write-ups...

1950s & 60s, most Sports were shown for the Status quo on Cinema highlights or Pathe news..

 

Bit then again many youngsters, Think that Top Sports und especially Football should be a great Watch & Experience everyweek,But in reality they only see in their opinion a Good game or performance if their Team wins or idolised sportsman come first..!!

That for me is a plastic American ideology...

 

There are more average, low entertainment performances through all Sporting events..

Expectations & Perspectives have changed drastically...Failure created by Media & Journalist clans since the 60s...

One can produce your best, time/distance/performances but still not take the moment, its not the end spurt that always counts,its the seasons Highlight and lows that make the Story of the paths taken,or how each period pans out for either individuals or teams...

the enjoyment is following the journey, the gravy is achieving the end target, but not the reason.!

 For me the raw Emotion,trials & tribulations is to be found on the road during that seasons journey...

either as the participant or supporter.

 

 

Edited 6 July 2021 by fuchsntf

[Nod.E]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

The principal reason is to respect trans people's gender identities.  Trans people are a small minority so it makes sense that most of the people you see doing it aren't trans, most of the people you see doing anything aren't trans.

 

One good example of the practice in action is Games Done Quick:  They're a twitch/youtube channel which showcases speedruns of various games and hold charity events throughout the year for various good causes, for instance they have an even on right now (Summer Games Done Quick) in support of Medecins sans Frontieres.  On their streams they'll display the name of the runner and any people co-commentating along with their pronouns.  It's quite handy because speedrunning is an inclusive community with a few trans people and it's not always immediately obvious from a person's voice or appearance what their gender identity is, adding that reminder helps people in the comments to respect them.  Cisgender people indicating their pronouns is generally an act of solidarity, normalising the practice.  Of course there'll be attention seekers jumping on the 'bandwagon', but where they aren't causing harm just call it the right cause for the wrong reason.

I don't think I'll ever get my head around small minorities receiving somewhat mainstream cultural attention and adaptation. By definition there are so many minorities, that where do you draw the line? Having a day to day conversation is becoming an absolute minefield. 

 

If we as a 'mainstream' society spent as much time trying to make the top 1% of wealth holders accountable as we do apologising for our privileges, the disadvantaged and minority groups would find themselves in a much better position.

 

It feels like badly spent energy to me.

[Nod.E]

45 minutes ago, brucey said:

People volunteering their pronouns = cool. 

People being asked their pronouns = not cool. 

 

Some people don't realise that the latter can be problematic. I've seen examples of companies who have asked everyone to add their pronouns to their email signatures to normalise it. Someone has also asked me my pronouns in real life. They don't realise that not all trans-identified people are "out", and asking them for their pronouns is essentially asking them to either out themselves or straight up lie. 

 

I personally believe pronouns should be an indicator of how others honestly perceive me. Not how I wish to be perceived/called. I know most people feel differently, but then there's a slippery slope from that into neopronouns. 

Sh!t I hadn't thought about how I might respond to being asked for mine.

 

'Well I have one of THESE'.

 

No, that won't land well. 

Edited 6 July 2021 by Nod.E

[leicsmac]

43 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

I don't think I'll ever get my head around small minorities receiving somewhat mainstream cultural attention and adaptation. By definition there are so many minorities, that where do you draw the line? Having a day to day conversation is becoming an absolute minefield. 

 

If we as a 'mainstream' society spent as much time trying to make the top 1% of wealth holders accountable as we do apologising for our privileges, the disadvantaged and minority groups would find themselves in a much better position.

 

It feels like badly spent energy to me.

...because this particular minority group have been and are actively discriminated against more than any other group in the UK, can't speak for the rest of the world but at least some of it happens out there too.

 

And agreed, but I think it's possible to do both things at the same time.

[lcfc278]

9 hours ago, brucey said:

People volunteering their pronouns = cool. 

People being asked their pronouns = not cool. 

 

Some people don't realise that the latter can be problematic. I've seen examples of companies who have asked everyone to add their pronouns to their email signatures to normalise it. Someone has also asked me my pronouns in real life. They don't realise that not all trans-identified people are "out", and asking them for their pronouns is essentially asking them to either out themselves or straight up lie. 

 

I personally believe pronouns should be an indicator of how others honestly perceive me. Not how I wish to be perceived/called. I know most people feel differently, but then there's a slippery slope from that into neopronouns. 

So this is a genuine question as it can be perceived as a bit of a minefield to someone who isn't as educated in this area (like me I'll put my hands up).

 

It can be offensive to ask someone their pronouns, as in, what they identify as.

 

But it's also offensive to just assume someone's pronouns or identified gender by how they look in relation to 'legacy' genders. (I've used the word legacy to describe how our parents/grandparents might describe you being either male or female).

 

Genuinely don't mean to offend but wonder what is an acceptable way to approach this topic when it seems like either way you go you can be seen as insensitive.

 

In the future, for example, would it just be safer to approach people we don't know or are not sure how they identify as, as 'they/them'?

[Carl the Llama]

42 minutes ago, lcfc278 said:

So this is a genuine question as it can be perceived as a bit of a minefield to someone who isn't as educated in this area (like me I'll put my hands up).

 

It can be offensive to ask someone their pronouns, as in, what they identify as.

 

But it's also offensive to just assume someone's pronouns or identified gender by how they look in relation to 'legacy' genders. (I've used the word legacy to describe how our parents/grandparents might describe you being either male or female).

 

Genuinely don't mean to offend but wonder what is an acceptable way to approach this topic when it seems like either way you go you can be seen as insensitive.

 

In the future, for example, would it just be safer to approach people we don't know or are not sure how they identify as, as 'they/them'?

Generally if they don't readily offer their pronouns to you then just carry on as you've always done.  No reasonable person will hold you accountable for not being able to read a stranger's mind.

[Carl the Llama]

10 hours ago, Nod.E said:

I don't think I'll ever get my head around small minorities receiving somewhat mainstream cultural attention and adaptation. By definition there are so many minorities, that where do you draw the line? Having a day to day conversation is becoming an absolute minefield. 

 

If we as a 'mainstream' society spent as much time trying to make the top 1% of wealth holders accountable as we do apologising for our privileges, the disadvantaged and minority groups would find themselves in a much better position.

 

It feels like badly spent energy to me.

Is it energy?  I'm hardly ever left out of breath by forming sentences respectful of their subject.

[brucey]

2 hours ago, lcfc278 said:

So this is a genuine question as it can be perceived as a bit of a minefield to someone who isn't as educated in this area (like me I'll put my hands up).

 

It can be offensive to ask someone their pronouns, as in, what they identify as.

 

But it's also offensive to just assume someone's pronouns or identified gender by how they look in relation to 'legacy' genders. (I've used the word legacy to describe how our parents/grandparents might describe you being either male or female).

 

Genuinely don't mean to offend but wonder what is an acceptable way to approach this topic when it seems like either way you go you can be seen as insensitive.

 

In the future, for example, would it just be safer to approach people we don't know or are not sure how they identify as, as 'they/them'?

I think it's okay to assume someone is of the gender they are attempting to externally present as, unless they tell you otherwise. If you can't tell what they are presenting as, then using 'they' is easier than guessing. 

 

Think of it like asking about someone's sexuality. It's rude to ask someone if they're gay in most contexts, unless it's a situation where that's relevant (dating etc). Someone might be struggling with their sexuality or just not wish to disclose it to the person asking. You know that gay people exist and that it isn't always obvious from how they look (sometimes it's obvious). You could assume people are straight, eg. if a male colleague told you he went on a date, and you ask whether she was fit. He could choose to correct you and say, actually he was really handsome. That's fine, he's brought up the topic, volunteered that information, and shouldn't be offended by you assuming that he's straight as he's not previously told you otherwise. 

 

Edited 7 July 2021 by brucey

[Guest SO1]

https://www.rt.com/news/528559-assange-us-appeal-court-ruling-extradition/

Still following the "leader" I see. What a shame those of the Ruling class and their masters can't see right and wrong. Seem hellbent on making this person a martyr.

[Oxfordfox83]

On 01/07/2021 at 18:56, RumbleFox said:

Djokovic is the greatest tennis player of all time. 

I’m going to be that guy and say best male player. Serena and Martina have strong claims to be the definitive best…

[SouthStandUpperTier]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

Generally if they don't readily offer their pronouns to you then just carry on as you've always done.  No reasonable person will hold you accountable for not being able to read a stranger's mind.

Ah, but now you're assuming the person you are speaking to is reasonable.

[lcfc278]

1 hour ago, brucey said:

I think it's okay to assume someone is of the gender they are attempting to externally present as, unless they tell you otherwise. If you can't tell what they are presenting as, then using 'they' is easier than guessing. 

 

Think of it like asking about someone's sexuality. It's rude to ask someone if they're gay in most contexts, unless it's a situation where that's relevant (dating etc). Someone might be struggling with their sexuality or just not wish to disclose it to the person asking. You know that gay people exist and that it isn't always obvious from how they look (sometimes it's obvious). You could assume people are straight, eg. if a male colleague told you he went on a date, and you ask whether she was fit. He could choose to correct you and say, actually he was really handsome. That's fine, he's brought up the topic, volunteered that information, and shouldn't be offended by you assuming that he's straight as he's not previously told you otherwise. 

 

Thank you, a good analogy to go by in future which helps.

 

I think for someone like me, it often feels like it's an area best left alone for fear of upsetting someone by making assumptions. Often you can make an honest mistake without any intention and it seems in todays society, especially with social media etc. that you can get shot down and 'cancelled' if you get it wrong. Sometimes feels like you're better off staying out of it and not discussing it when in reality you need the opposite of that to educate yourself on what's acceptable. 

[lcfc278]

One that's got to me today. I cannot stand the Atomic Kitten/Southgate song. It just makes me cringe listening to it and the changed lyrics aren't even that good or funny. 

[Carl the Llama]

14 hours ago, Nod.E said:

I don't think I'll ever get my head around small minorities receiving somewhat mainstream cultural attention and adaptation. By definition there are so many minorities, that where do you draw the line? Having a day to day conversation is becoming an absolute minefield. 

 

If we as a 'mainstream' society spent as much time trying to make the top 1% of wealth holders accountable as we do apologising for our privileges, the disadvantaged and minority groups would find themselves in a much better position.

 

It feels like badly spent energy to me.

Sorry for coming back to this one but I've only now got the time to sit down and pen a proper response.  Not many people use wheelchairs but we'll redesign buildings on the off-chance that one day a person using one will visit it.  Blind people are a tiny minority but you can't use a pedestrian crossing without encountering mainstream adaptations to accommodate them.  Should we be have been more like the Spartans and dashed any 'malformed' babies upon the rocks at birth?

 

Where do you draw the line?  You don't.  You continue extending your respect to members of society until they're all receiving it regardless of their personal story (unless they're like a criminal or something, an exception to every rule).  That's what the pronouns issue is a step towards, respect for everyone, not just the most commonly represented people.

 

Now if you're going to make the argument that it's pointless or even a negative then the onus is on you to indicate how.  So far you've failed to do that. You've only spoken in terms of what you 'feel' about the subject, it's hardly facts and logic.  What is the harm caused when you read a person's pronouns in their social media profile?  Arguing against something without having a clearly defined point about why it's bad is imo much more badly spent energy than adding 2 words to your self-description to aid understanding between people. 

[Carl the Llama]

3 hours ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Ah, but now you're assuming the person you are speaking to is reasonable.

It's an assumption I find you have to make in most social scenarios until proven otherwise.

[Dunge]

20 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Sorry for coming back to this one but I've only now got the time to sit down and pen a proper response.  Not many people use wheelchairs but we'll redesign buildings on the off-chance that one day a person using one will visit it.  Blind people are a tiny minority but you can't use a pedestrian crossing without encountering mainstream adaptations to accommodate them.  Should we be have been more like the Spartans and dashed any 'malformed' babies upon the rocks at birth?

 

Where do you draw the line?  You don't.  You continue extending your respect to members of society until they're all receiving it regardless of their personal story (unless they're like a criminal or something, an exception to every rule).  That's what the pronouns issue is a step towards, respect for everyone, not just the most commonly represented people.

 

Now if you're going to make the argument that it's pointless or even a negative then the onus is on you to indicate how.  So far you've failed to do that. You've only spoken in terms of what you 'feel' about the subject, it's hardly facts and logic.  What is the harm caused when you read a person's pronouns in their social media profile?  Arguing against something without having a clearly defined point about why it's bad is imo much more badly spent energy than adding 2 words to your self-description to aid understanding between people. 

I find this an interesting subject because it’s one where I feel I need some further persuading.

 

I’d start by stating that I of course have sympathy for people who find themselves outside the previously accepted norms, who feel that society is set up with barriers against them that simply aren’t there for others. It’s not their fault that language developed to have gender-specific pronouns in the first place, or that “they”/“them” feels naturally clunky to anyone who hasn’t grown up with it. I’d also say that their plight isn’t one that I’ve had any exposure to over the years - I don’t know anyone who is trans, at least not in any way well. I also come from a position of men dressing as women being seen as hilarious. That’s not to say that view is right, more that I only ever knew this to be something that was mocked and laughed at when I was growing up. So I approach this from the stereotypical white/male/straight viewpoint.

 

All that said, I cringe a little at the “declaring your pronouns” in emails. I can see why it’s done: People saying that this is the way they want to be referred to, and others doing it in support or allydom of the trans community. I’m not saying it isn’t done with good intentions. The problem I feel is that it declares something that the recipient is going to have to careful of in future communications. I like to think that bumbling mistakes that can be somewhat laughed off are good for us, that we try our best, make mistakes and laugh about them together. Declaring your pronouns feels like you’re explicitly declaring something as unacceptable, and therefore putting someone on edge. I don’t think correcting someone politely if they use the wrong pronoun is a bad thing, and could actually lead to an interesting conversation with nice people. Instead, declaring your pronouns feels like a warning that you’re not going to stand for any mistakes and that you’ll be insulted by them. It throws eggshells onto the floor before you even start communicating. And besides, unpleasant people will still call you something rude if they choose to because they’ll get it wrong deliberately. All it feels it achieves is to put potentially nice or bumbling people on edge. (And I think most of us like to bumble a lot of the time.)

 

Essentially, I think the bigger focus should always be on intent and context, whereas this is a judgement and demand of direct wording.

 

Maybe it’s something I’ll/we’ll get used to over time. Maybe “they”/“them” will become ever more mainstream to the point that it becomes the go-to phrase, although I’m doubtful on that. Certainly I think the trans debate is going to rage on for a while yet given the unresolved but deeply personal issues such as female sporting competition, toilets and prisons. I don’t feel like I’ve heard a good and full answer on it all yet, although granted we definitely need to move on from laughing at people for it as I grew up with.

 

Ultimately, we’re in an age of being seen as a pariah for making a mistake, and of there being obligations upon us to avoid upsetting people, rather than more of an expectation to live with society as it is defined as there was before. I can’t help but feel there’s a happy medium somewhere.

[Facecloth]

5 hours ago, Oxfordfox83 said:

I’m going to be that guy and say best male player. Serena and Martina have strong claims to be the definitive best…

Graf is better than both these imo.

[The Horse's Mouth]

On 06/07/2021 at 17:26, Bert said:

Converse are shit 

I don't mind the aesthetic it's mainly the people who wear them 

[Carl the Llama]

5 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I find this an interesting subject because it’s one where I feel I need some further persuading.

 

I’d start by stating that I of course have sympathy for people who find themselves outside the previously accepted norms, who feel that society is set up with barriers against them that simply aren’t there for others. It’s not their fault that language developed to have gender-specific pronouns in the first place, or that “they”/“them” feels naturally clunky to anyone who hasn’t grown up with it. I’d also say that their plight isn’t one that I’ve had any exposure to over the years - I don’t know anyone who is trans, at least not in any way well. I also come from a position of men dressing as women being seen as hilarious. That’s not to say that view is right, more that I only ever knew this to be something that was mocked and laughed at when I was growing up. So I approach this from the stereotypical white/male/straight viewpoint.

 

All that said, I cringe a little at the “declaring your pronouns” in emails. I can see why it’s done: People saying that this is the way they want to be referred to, and others doing it in support or allydom of the trans community. I’m not saying it isn’t done with good intentions. The problem I feel is that it declares something that the recipient is going to have to careful of in future communications. I like to think that bumbling mistakes that can be somewhat laughed off are good for us, that we try our best, make mistakes and laugh about them together. Declaring your pronouns feels like you’re explicitly declaring something as unacceptable, and therefore putting someone on edge. I don’t think correcting someone politely if they use the wrong pronoun is a bad thing, and could actually lead to an interesting conversation with nice people. Instead, declaring your pronouns feels like a warning that you’re not going to stand for any mistakes and that you’ll be insulted by them. It throws eggshells onto the floor before you even start communicating. And besides, unpleasant people will still call you something rude if they choose to because they’ll get it wrong deliberately. All it feels it achieves is to put potentially nice or bumbling people on edge. (And I think most of us like to bumble a lot of the time.)

 

Essentially, I think the bigger focus should always be on intent and context, whereas this is a judgement and demand of direct wording.

 

Maybe it’s something I’ll/we’ll get used to over time. Maybe “they”/“them” will become ever more mainstream to the point that it becomes the go-to phrase, although I’m doubtful on that. Certainly I think the trans debate is going to rage on for a while yet given the unresolved but deeply personal issues such as female sporting competition, toilets and prisons. I don’t feel like I’ve heard a good and full answer on it all yet, although granted we definitely need to move on from laughing at people for it as I grew up with.

 

Ultimately, we’re in an age of being seen as a pariah for making a mistake, and of there being obligations upon us to avoid upsetting people, rather than more of an expectation to live with society as it is defined as there was before. I can’t help but feel there’s a happy medium somewhere.

I don't want to go off too far into trans issues here, that's a big old subject, but keeping to the pronouns conversation you bring up probably the key fear surrounding all this:  The idea of being 'cancelled' for getting it wrong. I understand where that fear comes from, but fortunately I'm here to tell you that it's way overblown, like massively.  This idea that you can be cancelled just for innocently living your life is a fat lie spread by mainstream and alternative media sources with editorial interests in preventing the progress of trans rights.  At the risk of sound all 'nothing to hide/nothing to fear' the reality is you're only going to face punishment for that kind of thing if you're doing it in a clearly belligerent way.  All pronoun indication does is make it easier to address transgender people as you would any other individual of their gender.  It will still happen on occasion that somebody uses the wrong ones and accidentally causes offence but it won't happen nearly as much as in a world where trans people can't habitually share their pronouns as a matter of convenience.

 

Btw accidentally offending somebody will not end your social existence, it's actually not that big a deal: I've actually been in a situation where I accidentally misgendered a trans person who was clearly presenting as female to her face in a professional setting.  I apologised and it didn't become a thing.  I wish I could draw that story out and spin an exciting yarn about how I got angrily yelled at and had to spend months on the run from the social justice secret police but honestly it was that boring and inconsequential.  This would have been about 2 and a half years ago now and no complaints have been made about it yet, let alone a cancellation. 

 

I really don't think there's any reasonable concern to be had on the topic of indicating or correctly using one's pronouns.  It's all smoke and very little fire.

[Dunge]

10 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I don't want to go off too far into trans issues here, that's a big old subject, but keeping to the pronouns conversation you bring up probably the key fear surrounding all this:  The idea of being 'cancelled' for getting it wrong. I understand where that fear comes from, but fortunately I'm here to tell you that it's way overblown, like massively.  This idea that you can be cancelled just for innocently living your life is a fat lie spread by mainstream and alternative media sources with editorial interests in preventing the progress of trans rights.  At the risk of sound all 'nothing to hide/nothing to fear' the reality is you're only going to face punishment for that kind of thing if you're doing it in a clearly belligerent way.  All pronoun indication does is make it easier to address transgender people as you would any other individual of their gender.  It will still happen on occasion that somebody uses the wrong ones and accidentally causes offence but it won't happen nearly as much as in a world where trans people can't habitually share their pronouns as a matter of convenience.

 

Btw accidentally offending somebody will not end your social existence, it's actually not that big a deal: I've actually been in a situation where I accidentally misgendered a trans person who was clearly presenting as female to her face in a professional setting.  I apologised and it didn't become a thing.  I wish I could draw that story out and spin an exciting yarn about how I got angrily yelled at and had to spend months on the run from the social justice secret police but honestly it was that boring and inconsequential.  This would have been about 2 and a half years ago now and no complaints have been made about it yet, let alone a cancellation. 

 

I really don't think there's any reasonable concern to be had on the topic of indicating or correctly using one's pronouns.  It's all smoke and very little fire.

I think that’s a fair point; it may well be one of those things where I just need some time to see it in action and get used to it.

[Carl the Llama]

2 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I think that’s a fair point; it may well be one of those things where I just need some time to see it in action and get used to it.

Every change has an adjustment period, eventually people will think no more of it than seeing someone's job title under their name.  At least that's the hope.