Would you date a Transsexual?

[Dr The Singh]

Can never say never, aslong as the parts are all women, I don't really know

[daventry_fox]

it won't be long until people start saying they identify as a cat or a frog or god knows what else.

I've noticed as soon as something begins to get socially accepted something new pops up, when homosexuality began to get accepted, pansexuality all of a sudden sprouted out of nowhere.  when trans started to get accepted all of a sudden gender fluidity was a thing. It is becoming a bit of a joke really isn't it. 

 

It's like people have to create something to push the envelope and its starting to come across to me as attention seeking. 

 

Don't get me wrong I don't harbour any ill feeling towards the trans community, i feel that the whole issue is being forced down peoples throats (puns i've got them)and that in turn is breeding hatred. In any walk of life if people feel like they are being forced something they will resent it. 

 

I also find the LGBT movement the more letters that get added to it makes it look more and more of a joke. What is it now LGBTABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

And you can read whatever you want in the media but lets be honest your genitalia is what defines your gender, otherwise the terms pre or post op wouldn't exist.

 

 

[Buce]

6 hours ago, daventry_fox said:

it won't be long until people start saying they identify as a cat or a frog or god knows what else.

I've noticed as soon as something begins to get socially accepted something new pops up, when homosexuality began to get accepted, pansexuality all of a sudden sprouted out of nowhere.  when trans started to get accepted all of a sudden gender fluidity was a thing. It is becoming a bit of a joke really isn't it. 

 

It's like people have to create something to push the envelope and its starting to come across to me as attention seeking. 

 

Don't get me wrong I don't harbour any ill feeling towards the trans community, i feel that the whole issue is being forced down peoples throats (puns i've got them)and that in turn is breeding hatred. In any walk of life if people feel like they are being forced something they will resent it. 

 

I also find the LGBT movement the more letters that get added to it makes it look more and more of a joke. What is it now LGBTABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

And you can read whatever you want in the media but lets be honest your genitalia is what defines your gender, otherwise the terms pre or post op wouldn't exist.

 

 

 

A guy that works at the tattoist near where I live had to have his penis amputated because of complications with his diabetis.

 

By your definition his gender is no longer male. How do you define him?

[Captain...]

7 hours ago, daventry_fox said:

it won't be long until people start saying they identify as a cat or a frog or god knows what else.

I've noticed as soon as something begins to get socially accepted something new pops up, when homosexuality began to get accepted, pansexuality all of a sudden sprouted out of nowhere.  when trans started to get accepted all of a sudden gender fluidity was a thing. It is becoming a bit of a joke really isn't it. 

 

It's like people have to create something to push the envelope and its starting to come across to me as attention seeking. 

 

Don't get me wrong I don't harbour any ill feeling towards the trans community, i feel that the whole issue is being forced down peoples throats (puns i've got them)and that in turn is breeding hatred. In any walk of life if people feel like they are being forced something they will resent it. 

 

I also find the LGBT movement the more letters that get added to it makes it look more and more of a joke. What is it now LGBTABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

And you can read whatever you want in the media but lets be honest your genitalia is what defines your gender, otherwise the terms pre or post op wouldn't exist.

 

 

Or pan sexuality has always been a thing and gender norms is a social construct that is finally being broken down. Everything feels to me like a reaction to the binary attitudes of the past and the use of the law to control people by locking up "deviants". If you look at sexuality in nature most species think nothing of shagging their brothers and sisters, parents will have sex with (and also eat) their children there are plenty of examples of homosexuality and cross species breeding at the base level it is nothing more than a need and a solution to that need.

 

We we go back further into human history in Roman times it is widely documented that rich roman men would have male sex slaves and the time of Louis xvi men were openly gay and cross dressing wearing tons of make up and frilly clothes. There are thousands of examples in nature and history that this has always been the case, it is not a new fad. What happened in the recent past was the changes in social norms that demonised this behaviour, mainly down to religions increasing their influence in society. Now as society changes again people are freer than they have been in a long time to express themselves.

 

I disagree that there will be more letters added to lgbtq I think that it will get reduced to something like nb (non binary) I do find it odd that people have spent so long fighting to break the chains of binary social definition just to define themselves as something else.

 

This brings me onto trans, I still have issues with this, despite being a big lefty snowflake, it has become a fad recently and I just doesn't sit right with me that a predominantly psychological issue is being dealt with by body modifications, taking a load of hormones and cosmetic surgery to force yourself to fit into the societal definition of the opposite gender you were born into. Then expecting the rest of society to accept you and treat you the same as a cis gendered person when you aren't and by doing so you are almost being a traitor to the lgbtq community. "Thanks for your help while I transitioned but now I am accepted as a female/male I'm back in the binary, enjoy being marginalised". I would like society to be accepting enough for people to instead of feeling like a man trapped in a woman's body feel they can express themselves as they want in whatever body they have without being judged for it, not surgically sculpt their body so it fits the societal norms of their behaviour.

 

Final point, sex is biological and defined by your genes (and in most cases genitals but even in genetics it is non binary with xxy xxx and cases of hermaphroditism) but sex is your genetic make up and internal plumbing. Gender is a social construct as are gender norms. Which is why gender can be fluid but biological sex isn't.

 

Who knows what the future will bring, maybe a complete break down in gender norms or with the advancement of science people will be able to choose the exact body they want internal plumbing and all. The ability to transfer consciousness to a fresh body that represents on the outside how you feel on the inside... now there's a question waiting to be asked.

[Strokes]

14 hours ago, Samilktray said:

I refuse to believe people dont know who Cara Delevingne is

Genuinely no idea.

[Steven]

9 hours ago, daventry_fox said:

it won't be long until people start saying they identify as a cat or a frog or god knows what else.

 

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/mvxgwa/from-dragons-to-foxes-the-otherkin-community-believes-you-can-be-whatever-you-want-to-be

 

You are behind the times. 

[Finnegan]

9 hours ago, daventry_fox said:

it won't be long until people start saying they identify as a cat or a frog or god knows what else.

I've noticed as soon as something begins to get socially accepted something new pops up, when homosexuality began to get accepted, pansexuality all of a sudden sprouted out of nowhere.  when trans started to get accepted all of a sudden gender fluidity was a thing. It is becoming a bit of a joke really isn't it. 

 

It's like people have to create something to push the envelope and its starting to come across to me as attention seeking. 

 

Don't get me wrong I don't harbour any ill feeling towards the trans community, i feel that the whole issue is being forced down peoples throats (puns i've got them)and that in turn is breeding hatred. In any walk of life if people feel like they are being forced something they will resent it. 

 

I also find the LGBT movement the more letters that get added to it makes it look more and more of a joke. What is it now LGBTABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

And you can read whatever you want in the media but lets be honest your genitalia is what defines your gender, otherwise the terms pre or post op wouldn't exist.

 

 

 

"I don't harbour any ill feeling but here's a lengthy diatribe about how it's all ridiculous."

 

 

PS: genitalia has nothing to do with gender. Gender is a social construct that we've projected on to biological  sex. Gender, essentially, doesn't exist. 

Edited 25 January 2018 by Finnegan

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Captain... said:

It just doesn't sit right with me that a predominantly psychological issue is being dealt with by body modifications, taking a load of hormones and cosmetic surgery to force yourself to fit into the societal definition of the opposite gender you were born into. Then expecting the rest of society to accept you and treat you the same as a cis gendered person when you aren't and by doing so you are almost being a traitor to the lgbtq community. "Thanks for your help while I transitioned but now I am accepted as a female/male I'm back in the binary, enjoy being marginalised". I would like society to be accepting enough for people to instead of feeling like a man trapped in a woman's body feel they can express themselves as they want in whatever body they have without being judged for it, not surgically sculpt their body so it fits the societal norms of their behaviour.

 

You make a very good point here, though I think the middle bit is a bit overstated.

 

It shows just how dominant and deeply-ingrained social expectations of masculinity and femininity are (Bowie would be disappointed in us!). General society still only fully accepts a limited range of identity/appearance/behaviour in men and a different range for women. So I suppose it is no surprise that some people whose natural personal identity/behaviour conforms more to the set range for the other physical gender will identify with that other gender and want to be accepted as being that other gender.

 

The obvious exception is homosexuality. Although still far from universally accepted, it is now more widely accepted that some (not all) gay men will have "effeminate" traits and some (not all) lesbians will have "butch" traits. Maybe people are still less accepting of deviation from the normal range of gender behaviour if it is not explained by a known gay/lesbian sexual orientation?

 

Btw, I'm not excluding myself from these instinctive prejudices (are they instinctive or socially-learned?). There's a bloke who works in my local supermarket who is extremely "effeminate" in voice and manner (I've no idea whether he's a gay man, an "effeminate" straight man, a non-transitioning transsexual etc). Instinctively, his behavior jars though I'm then able to rationally self-correct and realise that my reaction is misguided and that it's a good thing that he feels able to be himself, even if that means he stands out from the norm.

 

I suppose society takes time to adapt as generations (or a growing number of individuals within new generations) acquire different expectations. My Dad grew up in ultra-Catholic rural Ireland before and during WW2. When my nephew came out as gay 10 years ago, he was very accepting of this but did comment to me: "There weren't any gay people when I was growing up in Ireland". Obviously, there must have been gay people. Presumably, they stayed firmly closeted in self-denial, were ultra-discreet or left for Dublin or somewhere they might have been able to avoid social annihilation. 

[Countryfox]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Genuinely no idea.

 

You know Strokes ...   that bloke Carl Delvinnything who spent shed loads on having a sex change ...   loads of new bits, bits taken off, reshaping, adams apple removed, new holes put in, etc ....      but then,  after spending ALL that dosh ...   skimped !! ...     by leaving his big bushy manly eyebrows in place ...    amazing !!      

[Captain...]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

You make a very good point here, though I think the middle bit is a bit overstated.

 

It shows just how dominant and deeply-ingrained social expectations of masculinity and femininity are (Bowie would be disappointed in us!). General society still only fully accepts a limited range of identity/appearance/behaviour in men and a different range for women. So I suppose it is no surprise that some people whose natural personal identity/behaviour conforms more to the set range for the other physical gender will identify with that other gender and want to be accepted as being that other gender.

 

The obvious exception is homosexuality. Although still far from universally accepted, it is now more widely accepted that some (not all) gay men will have "effeminate" traits and some (not all) lesbians will have "butch" traits. Maybe people are still less accepting of deviation from the normal range of gender behaviour if it is not explained by a known gay/lesbian sexual orientation?

 

Btw, I'm not excluding myself from these instinctive prejudices (are they instinctive or socially-learned?). There's a bloke who works in my local supermarket who is extremely "effeminate" in voice and manner (I've no idea whether he's a gay man, an "effeminate" straight man, a non-transitioning transsexual etc). Instinctively, his behavior jars though I'm then able to rationally self-correct and realise that my reaction is misguided and that it's a good thing that he feels able to be himself, even if that means he stands out from the norm.

 

I suppose society takes time to adapt as generations (or a growing number of individuals within new generations) acquire different expectations. My Dad grew up in ultra-Catholic rural Ireland before and during WW2. When my nephew came out as gay 10 years ago, he was very accepting of this but did comment to me: "There weren't any gay people when I was growing up in Ireland". Obviously, there must have been gay people. Presumably, they stayed firmly closeted in self-denial, were ultra-discreet or left for Dublin or somewhere they might have been able to avoid social annihilation. 

It's interesting the way it has evolved for a while it was ok to be gay but as long as you were a proper gay and acted gay all the time and didn't act straight so people don't think you are gay. The way I would like to see society evolve is away from terms like gay and straight, they are largely irrelevant unless you are trying to have sex with someone. We all start out as kids without a sexual thought in our heads and as we grow older we should be left to find out what we like and don't like in a free, consensual, way. The same goes for our behaviour we should be allowed to like what we like and discover what is out there for us without judgement or prejudice. We should remove all preconceptions and assumptions when we meet someone. Like schroedinger's sexuality everyone is gay, straight, bi, pan, asexual until you open that box. Really what they're into doesn't matter it only matters if they are into you.

 

The same goes for personality, you shouldn't look at a typical bloke and assume he likes football and birds and beer and pizza and it shouldn't be a shock if we see a bloke cry or express feelings beyond the what we have defined as an acceptable range for typical gender role. There is almost a need to wear your personality, like if you are a hipster or a goth or gay so that by wearing the uniform acting like that becomes acceptable. It's ok for me to drink a gin and tonic instead of beer because I have a beard and a hat.

 

Getting back to trans, it is the hormones side of it that I can't get on board with, hormones are basically responsible for huge chunks of your personality, you pump yourself full of testosterone or oestrogen you change who you are, transitioning is not being true to yourself it is murdering your old identity to create a new one to fit into the societal norms that are responsible for the need to transition in the first place. You have modified your appearance, your personality, the way you sound, act think. The only thing that is left is their memories, but these are the memories of someone they killed.

 

I am being dramatic but I have seen it happen I have seen a casual mate disappear and be replaced by a different person and instead of being able to mourn the loss of their friend his friends have to try to be friends with his killer, who they have nothing in common with any more as the hormones make her act like a teenage girl. 

 

Wearing a a dress and make up being true to yourself: great be who you are.

 

Change your name and physical appearance: not a fan, but I get it.

 

Pump yourself full of hormones to go through puberty again and dramatically change your personality: that's a no from me, it doesn't make you a woman, it won't make what are clearly deep rooted psychological issues disappear and all you are doing is distancing yourself from your friends, your family and the community that accepts you by trying to replicate the societal and gender norms that have forced you to transition in the first place and ostracised the community that you belong to.

 

I say this because I do worry that it will become normalised, that people who find fitting into societal norms difficult and don't feel like they belong will see this as a way out. I'm sure many on here went through their teenage years not really belonging trying to find their identity and feeling alienated and alone. Not because they were trapped in the wrong gender but because that is just life sometimes. That's how it goes, not everyone does fit in and you learn to deal with it. You don't pump yourself full of hormones to change who you are so you do fit in.

[brucey]

5 hours ago, Captain... said:

This brings me onto trans, I still have issues with this, despite being a big lefty snowflake, it has become a fad recently and I just doesn't sit right with me that a predominantly psychological issue is being dealt with by body modifications, taking a load of hormones and cosmetic surgery to force yourself to fit into the societal definition of the opposite gender you were born into. Then expecting the rest of society to accept you and treat you the same as a cis gendered person when you aren't and by doing so you are almost being a traitor to the lgbtq community. "Thanks for your help while I transitioned but now I am accepted as a female/male I'm back in the binary, enjoy being marginalised". I would like society to be accepting enough for people to instead of feeling like a man trapped in a woman's body feel they can express themselves as they want in whatever body they have without being judged for it, not surgically sculpt their body so it fits the societal norms of their behaviour.

For some trans people, the main aim of hormones and the body modifications may be to fit in with societal expectations. But for many more, it is to alleviate physical dysphoria (aka the 'trapped in the wrong body' feeling), which can be quite agonising and is (largely) separate to societal expectations. I am transgender myself (female to male), and took hormones for a few months a couple of years back. I stopped after I had enough irreversible physical changes to alleviate most of my dysphoria and associated suicidal ideation. The biggest issue with hormones is that there is very little research on long term hormone usage, although it's known to increase health risks and leads to lifelong dependency on hormones. There has been a massive rise recently of young teenagers seeking to transition, a lot of them are those hipster types with green hair and such. I would say a significant number of them would not do so, if as you say, society was less judgemental of non gender conforming individuals. But we are sadly still a long, long way from that happening, as you can probably tell from the responses in this thread.

Edited 25 January 2018 by brucey

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Captain... said:

Getting back to trans, it is the hormones side of it that I can't get on board with, hormones are basically responsible for huge chunks of your personality, you pump yourself full of testosterone or oestrogen you change who you are, transitioning is not being true to yourself it is murdering your old identity to create a new one to fit into the societal norms that are responsible for the need to transition in the first place. You have modified your appearance, your personality, the way you sound, act think. The only thing that is left is their memories, but these are the memories of someone they killed.

 

I am being dramatic but I have seen it happen I have seen a casual mate disappear and be replaced by a different person and instead of being able to mourn the loss of their friend his friends have to try to be friends with his killer, who they have nothing in common with any more as the hormones make her act like a teenage girl. 

 

Wearing a a dress and make up being true to yourself: great be who you are.

 

Change your name and physical appearance: not a fan, but I get it.

 

Pump yourself full of hormones to go through puberty again and dramatically change your personality: that's a no from me, it doesn't make you a woman, it won't make what are clearly deep rooted psychological issues disappear and all you are doing is distancing yourself from your friends, your family and the community that accepts you by trying to replicate the societal and gender norms that have forced you to transition in the first place and ostracised the community that you belong to.

 

I say this because I do worry that it will become normalised, that people who find fitting into societal norms difficult and don't feel like they belong will see this as a way out. I'm sure many on here went through their teenage years not really belonging trying to find their identity and feeling alienated and alone. Not because they were trapped in the wrong gender but because that is just life sometimes. That's how it goes, not everyone does fit in and you learn to deal with it. You don't pump yourself full of hormones to change who you are so you do fit in.

 

First off, I've got sympathy for your personal experience - to have someone who is your friend change before your eyes is an experience that is difficult to deal with.

 

However, the idea that people transition only to fit societal norms is flawed. While societal expectation often dictates how a person might transition (gotta "pass" or be branded a freak), the reason why someone chooses to do it in the first place is entirely personal. As mentioned above, dysphoria is often acute, often agonising, and there have been a number of cases where the person involved committed suicide because they were not able to transition.

 

The idea that someone should live with that and "deal with it" rather than changing themselves in a way that would alleviate it because...I don't know, suffering breeds character or whatnot, is something that belongs in 19th Century stoicism along with "dealing with"/internalising every other condition of a similar type that in fact has a reasonable solution in this day and age.

 

The further we get away from the idea that an identity is set in stone the moment you are born and that you have to suffer it your whole life no matter what because evolutionary stoicism is somehow still a definitively worthwhile quality, the happier we'll be as a society IMO.

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, brucey said:

For some trans people, the main aim of hormones and the body modifications may be to fit in with societal expectations. But for many more, it is to alleviate physical dysphoria (aka the 'trapped in the wrong body' feeling), which can be quite agonising and is (largely) separate to societal expectations. I am transgender myself (female to male), and took hormones for a few months a couple of years back. I stopped after I had enough irreversible physical changes to alleviate most of my dysphoria and associated suicidal ideation. The biggest issue with hormones is that there is very little research on long term hormone usage, although it's known to increase health risks and leads to lifelong dependency on hormones. There has been a massive rise recently of young teenagers seeking to transition, a lot of them are those hipster types with green hair and such. I would say a significant number of them would not do so, if as you say, society was less judgemental of non gender conforming individuals. But we are sadly still a long, long way from that happening, as you can probably tell from the responses in this thread.

Thanks for replying (and not calling me a cvnt). I still see body dysphoria as being a psychological problem rather than a physical one. In the case of anorexia you don't change their body to make them feel thinner you help them to accept their body as being normal. In the same way that feeling you are trapped in the wrong body, I would rather people spent more energy and focus on helping people to feel that they aren't trapped in the wrong body, they are just in a body and that doesn't define them. They can be who they want whatever body they are in. With the person I know who is transitioning it did feel like it was a matter of weeks after self diagnosing as trans she was on the hormones. Any attempts from the clinics to suggest she might not be a woman trapped in a man's body were met with letters of complaint to the clinic, accusations of transphobia and social media shaming. It didn't feel like there was enough time spent exploring the possibilities that she wasn't, and that the reasons for her issues were something else. It was very quickly onto the hormones and as you said the effects of hormone treatments are not known and surgery is never risk free, there are all sorts of complications that could occur. It should only be an option as a last last resort for extreme cases with the consequences fully explored and accepted.

 

Do you mind me asking has it all been worth it? This is my greatest fear for anyone trans, that they go through all of this and they are no happier, all they have done is trapped themselves in another body that they don't recognise and can't identify with.

 

[RonnieTodger]

No, but I wouldn't judge anyone who can see past it. 

Edited 25 January 2018 by RonnieTodger

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

First off, I've got sympathy for your personal experience - to have someone who is your friend change before your eyes is an experience that is difficult to deal with.

 

However, the idea that people transition only to fit societal norms is flawed. While societal expectation often dictates how a person might transition (gotta "pass" or be branded a freak), the reason why someone chooses to do it in the first place is entirely personal. As mentioned above, dysphoria is often acute, often agonising, and there have been a number of cases where the person involved committed suicide because they were not able to transition.

 

The idea that someone should live with that and "deal with it" rather than changing themselves in a way that would alleviate it because...I don't know, suffering breeds character or whatnot, is something that belongs in 19th Century stoicism along with "dealing with"/internalising every other condition of a similar type that in fact has a reasonable solution in this day and age.

 

The further we get away from the idea that an identity is set in stone the moment you are born and that you have to suffer it your whole life no matter what because evolutionary stoicism is somehow still a definitively worthwhile quality, the happier we'll be as a society IMO.

I'm not saying they should just deal with it, they should get all the help available to them to come to terms with the fact that they are perfectly normal, admittedly that may not be possible with the current state of society but that should be where we are trying to go. It's fine to have a penis, but wear dresses and perform the traditional female roles in society and relationships. As a last resort then try hormones, but it doesn't sit right with me, because as I said, it changes your personality.

 

I guess my personal experience has perhaps clouded my judgement as I have seen how it has effected the people closest to her, and it all feels false, like it is all an act and she certainly doesn't seem any happier now. She was never a particularly effeminate as a man, a pretty normal bloke, it feels like she woke up one day and decided she was a woman and anyone who said anything about it was transphobic. It really hit home watching Louis Theroux's show about trans kids and about the sense of loss that the parents felt. They still loved their kid, but it wasn't the same kid they had raised, their son was gone and now they had a daughter, but they still lost their son.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I'm not saying they should just deal with it, they should get all the help available to them to come to terms with the fact that they are perfectly normal, admittedly that may not be possible with the current state of society but that should be where we are trying to go. It's fine to have a penis, but wear dresses and perform the traditional female roles in society and relationships. As a last resort then try hormones, but it doesn't sit right with me, because as I said, it changes your personality.

 

I guess my personal experience has perhaps clouded my judgement as I have seen how it has effected the people closest to her, and it all feels false, like it is all an act and she certainly doesn't seem any happier now. She was never a particularly effeminate as a man, a pretty normal bloke, it feels like she woke up one day and decided she was a woman and anyone who said anything about it was transphobic. It really hit home watching Louis Theroux's show about trans kids and about the sense of loss that the parents felt. They still loved their kid, but it wasn't the same kid they had raised, their son was gone and now they had a daughter, but they still lost their son.

I can see where you're coming from here - because of how gender is binaried throughout most of society people feel they have to transition and "pass" in order to fit in as it were, and that shouldn't be the case. I totally agree - but that is the way the world is right now.

 

This is purely second-hand opinion, but when someone chooses to transition I think most of them are fully aware of the effect it will have on other people around them, and how some of them might consider the sense of identity lost rather than merely changed (a viewpoint that I personally don't share) - I'm reasonably sure for every person who has taken that leap there are five who remained closeted because they didn't want to burden others with the emotional labour that transitioning places upon them. That they choose to do so anyway is not out of spite or antagonism or lack of consideration for those around them (though I know you didn't say that), it's because they simply cannot live another day with the identity they have.

 

How the people around them adapt to that change and the support they may or may not give to that person is much more on those people, not the person who chose to transition IMO.

 

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

I say this because I do worry that it will become normalised, that people who find fitting into societal norms difficult and don't feel like they belong will see this as a way out. I'm sure many on here went through their teenage years not really belonging trying to find their identity and feeling alienated and alone. Not because they were trapped in the wrong gender but because that is just life sometimes. That's how it goes, not everyone does fit in and you learn to deal with it. You don't pump yourself full of hormones to change who you are so you do fit in.

 

34 minutes ago, brucey said:

For some trans people, the main aim of hormones and the body modifications may be to fit in with societal expectations. But for many more, it is to alleviate physical dysphoria (aka the 'trapped in the wrong body' feeling), which can be quite agonising and is (largely) separate to societal expectations. I am transgender myself (female to male), and took hormones for a few months a couple of years back. I stopped after I had enough irreversible physical changes to alleviate most of my dysphoria and associated suicidal ideation. The biggest issue with hormones is that there is very little research on long term hormone usage, although it's known to increase health risks and leads to lifelong dependency on hormones. There has been a massive rise recently of young teenagers seeking to transition, a lot of them are those hipster types with green hair and such. I would say a significant number of them would not do so, if as you say, society was less judgemental of non gender conforming individuals. But we are sadly still a long, long way from that happening, as you can probably tell from the responses in this thread.

 

Good to hear from someone with direct personal experience, Brucey, though I appreciate that Captain has indirect personal experience via his trans friend.

 

It's obviously difficult for someone like me, with no personal experience of being trans, to imagine the "trapped in wrong body" feeling or to separate that from feelings of being out of kilter with societal expectations on gender identity. Is it personal experience or knowledge of research that leads to your confidence that the two are "(largely) separate", Brucey?

 

I partly ask due to personal memories of societal/parental pressure at a very early age. I started off as a rather innocent, gentle, bookish lad. Although most of my early friends were boys and most of my early books were about boys, when I was about 8 I had a girl around to play and when I was about 10 I asked for a book about the adventures of 2 girls. Both times, my Dad (who was anything but a bigot) quietly asked me why I'd invited a girl and not a boy, and why I wanted a book about boys not girls - probably because he was concerned that I might be bullied as a "nancy boy". I certainly noticed this "societal pressure". Who knows what pressures we undergo, without remembering, at an even earlier age? Can physical dysphoria be separated from that? I mean that as a genuine question from someone who lacks knowledge.

 

It is partly from personal experience, too, that I have some sympathy for Captain's concerns. When I reached adolescence, I was one of those who "found fitting into societal norms difficult". I went to a very conservative boys' grammar school with a strong culture of conformism and homophobia. Most boys were into cars, prog rock, getting a conventional career job and getting a conventional girlfriend. The few suspected gay boys were bullied systematically, with the active approval of the headmaster. I was partly accepted as I played football and had learned to deploy humour. But enough of the "gentle, bookish boy" remained for me to be a partial misfit, so I got a certain amount of abuse as a "queer". As I was over-sensitive, this fvcked me up for a few years. Although my only sexual desires were for girls, not boys, I began to wonder if they were right and I really was a "queer". I then began to wonder if I was meant to be a girl and would be happier as a girl. I once even went and tried on my Mum's underwear and make-up when she was out (looking a right state, I'm sure! ).

 

That was in the 1970s, when transsexualism was almost unheard of, but if it had happened to me today, might I have pursued that route? If so, would that have been a good thing? As it happened, I toughened up a bit (Captain's stoicism) but mainly the situation was resolved when I left home at 18 and met a lot of people who didn't share the narrow-minded attitudes prevalent at my school. So what if I was sometimes a bit sensitive, even a bit camp - and quite competitive, even aggressive and laddish at other times? I was soon happy in my skin as a male heterosexual, just a bit different from the lads at school.

 

Where I have problems with your comments, Captain, is that you're expecting an awful lot of courage from "non-gender-conforming individuals" in a world that's not likely to be kind to them for many years yet. I wasn't a complete reject, wasn't even gay and didn't feel trapped in the wrong body, yet my life was pretty hellish for a while....I cannot imagine how tough it must be for someone who stands out a lot more than I did. Particularly for teenagers, it is expecting a lot for them to show the courage to be themselves in a world largely hostile to that self-expression, rather than look for a "way out" via hormones and a new identity to suit the binary gender system. I doubt that even a massive increase in support plus strong measures to combat bullying and encourage tolerance would improve the situation rapidly.

 

As a direct comparison: would it have been reasonable to expect the gay people who "didn't exist" when my Dad was growing up in rural Ireland in the 30s/40s to have "learned to deal with it" and to have taken on the condemnation of society rather than living closeted in self-denial or moving away?

 

I hope that I've not said anything offensive through clumsiness or ignorance, Brucey. But I think that it's good for these things to be discussed so hope this thread might make a tiny contribution to the long, slow change in public attitudes - and to people (me included) becoming better informed.

[brucey]

21 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Thanks for replying (and not calling me a cvnt). I still see body dysphoria as being a psychological problem rather than a physical one. In the case of anorexia you don't change their body to make them feel thinner you help them to accept their body as being normal. In the same way that feeling you are trapped in the wrong body, I would rather people spent more energy and focus on helping people to feel that they aren't trapped in the wrong body, they are just in a body and that doesn't define them. They can be who they want whatever body they are in. With the person I know who is transitioning it did feel like it was a matter of weeks after self diagnosing as trans she was on the hormones. Any attempts from the clinics to suggest she might not be a woman trapped in a man's body were met with letters of complaint to the clinic, accusations of transphobia and social media shaming. It didn't feel like there was enough time spent exploring the possibilities that she wasn't, and that the reasons for her issues were something else. It was very quickly onto the hormones and as you said the effects of hormone treatments are not known and surgery is never risk free, there are all sorts of complications that could occur. It should only be an option as a last last resort for extreme cases with the consequences fully explored and accepted.

 

Do you mind me asking has it all been worth it? This is my greatest fear for anyone trans, that they go through all of this and they are no happier, all they have done is trapped themselves in another body that they don't recognise and can't identify with.

I too see gender dysphoria as a mental rather than a physical disorder. I consider it a mental 'birth defect'. Just like physical birth defects result in the womb from parts not going to the right places, mental birth defects can result from the wrong levels of sex hormones washing over the fetal brain during development in the womb - I believe there's been some research to suggest this is the cause. But after birth, the brain can no longer be changed, but the body still can, why not do something that makes life less miserable?

 

From my personal experience, there are many therapists and so called gender specialists that are more than happy to diagnose people without due process. There's been two GPs that have got into trouble with the GMC for it. It's difficult because fundamentally it's a condition that has to be self-diagnosed, but it's also very easy for someone in a phase, so to speak, to say the right things to gain access to those treatments. There's a lot of different surgery options ranging from nearly risk-free to a massive complication rate. Transition regretters are traditionally quoted at 2% but since the recent influx/'fad' so to speak this seems to be increasing. I tend to avoid support groups because they are a massive echo chamber with a sprinkling of peer pressure. I am more sceptical than most, though.

 

I have not socially transitioned, mostly because it is a massive hassle and I never socialise or leave the house apart from for work. I look androgynous enough to casually pass if I go into town, which is good enough for me personally. Also because I cannot be arsed to deal with transphobic people. I work in an NHS hospital where a colleague recently came out as trans - the whispering behind their back from other staff is rather unpleasant to witness. I do want surgery eventually, probably in like 5 years when I can get enough time off from work at once without saying why, but the relief from hormones has been incredible and totally worth it.

[SecretPro]

Think I may have already but could only confirm with DNA evidence. 

 

I had a mate who went to Thailand and tried to chat up the same bar girl night after night, she even told him she was a guy but he wasn't having none of it, finally convinced her he was genuinely interested, got off with her after shift and his hands wondered....well, she did warn him. 

 

In all seriousness, I don't think I would have a problem with it. Everybody has the right to live their lives as they wish too as long as they are not harming anyone. If you fall hard enough for a fellow human being, what difference does it make really? 

Edited 25 January 2018 by SecretPro

[Nick]

3 hours ago, brucey said:

For some trans people, the main aim of hormones and the body modifications may be to fit in with societal expectations. But for many more, it is to alleviate physical dysphoria (aka the 'trapped in the wrong body' feeling), which can be quite agonising and is (largely) separate to societal expectations. I am transgender myself (female to male), and took hormones for a few months a couple of years back. I stopped after I had enough irreversible physical changes to alleviate most of my dysphoria and associated suicidal ideation. The biggest issue with hormones is that there is very little research on long term hormone usage, although it's known to increase health risks and leads to lifelong dependency on hormones. There has been a massive rise recently of young teenagers seeking to transition, a lot of them are those hipster types with green hair and such. I would say a significant number of them would not do so, if as you say, society was less judgemental of non gender conforming individuals. But we are sadly still a long, long way from that happening, as you can probably tell from the responses in this thread.

Fair play to you mate. This liberal, outraged snowflake is so bored of those responses that he no longer can even be bothered to engage with the blind ignorance of people in this thread but you have my full respect and support.

[Mike Oxlong]

Surely there’s nothing wrong with saying you would 

 

And equally nothing wrong with saying you wouldn’t

[Jattdogg]

If "she" looked like any hot woman , had no penis, had a womans voice and i didnt know about "his" past I'd praly be balls deep in it by now.

 

Ive watched those shows where they try and trick you or the pics/articles you can see online some times and i will admit ive said id shag one and found out after they used to be a man. They looked that passable that if i was at a club i would have shagged them after lol.

 

Now, if i had known before hand i wouldn't  be interested as thats not what i look for. 

 

I think more people lie and say they wouldnt but i bet theyd shag em if they had a vagina

 

Dating is a different ballgame. No.

 

[brucey]

37 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Good to hear from someone with direct personal experience, Brucey, though I appreciate that Captain has indirect personal experience via his trans friend.

 

It's obviously difficult for someone like me, with no personal experience of being trans, to imagine the "trapped in wrong body" feeling or to separate that from feelings of being out of kilter with societal expectations on gender identity. Is it personal experience or knowledge of research that leads to your confidence that the two are "(largely) separate", Brucey?

 

I partly ask due to personal memories of societal/parental pressure at a very early age. I started off as a rather innocent, gentle, bookish lad. Although most of my early friends were boys and most of my early books were about boys, when I was about 8 I had a girl around to play and when I was about 10 I asked for a book about the adventures of 2 girls. Both times, my Dad (who was anything but a bigot) quietly asked me why I'd invited a girl and not a boy, and why I wanted a book about boys not girls - probably because he was concerned that I might be bullied as a "nancy boy". I certainly noticed this "societal pressure". Who knows what pressures we undergo, without remembering, at an even earlier age? Can physical dysphoria be separated from that? I mean that as a genuine question from someone who lacks knowledge.

I cannot speak for Captain's friend, whether her keenness to undergo rapid transition is due to a desire to make up for lost time, or whether she isn't really trans and it is part of an autogynephilic sexual fantasy. I have seen it in both situations, but can appreciate how distressing it is to friends and family.

 

I personally was not brought up with any societal gender norms or pressures, although I appreciate it is far easier for those born female to be gender non-conforming. For me, physical dysphoria is when I'm lying in bed, typing on my laptop but getting annoyed at the two strange lumps on my chest which gets in the way. My brain tells me they shouldn't be there, they feel foreign and numb to me, and I can punch them with no pain. TMI, but a big part of it is sexual as well. When watching porn, imagine getting the sensation of an erection and the desperate urge to penetrate, but there isn't anything there to do anything with. Imagine the frustration of trying to have a wank with a dick the size of a grain of rice. This was particularly distressing prior to hormonal growth and I'd frequently be suicidal afterwards. That to me is the feeling of 'being trapped in the wrong body', and has nothing to do with what some chavs might shout at me in the street if they can't work out my gender.

[Captain...]

@Alf Bentley and @leicsmac I'm not talking about manning up or stoicism, I didn't mean it that way, I meant being helped to feel like they are normal and feeling these things are not weird and there is nothing wrong with them and they can live their life as they please without having to transition. 

 

@brucey thanks for your openness, it is appreciated because it is something that is still largely misunderstood. I do disagree that your brain can't be changed, it is a fantastic organ and can by helped into acting and reacting in certain ways through therapy and non personality altering drugs (although I'm also not a fan of them) it is a muscle that can be strengthened and conditioned.

 

Have the hormones helped suppress those feelings you mentioned? I would have thought male hormones amplify and make these desires stronger and more frustrating? Feel free to tell me to mind my own business on that one.

 

Im glad you're happier than before and it's been worth it.

[brucey]

16 minutes ago, Captain... said:

 

@brucey thanks for your openness, it is appreciated because it is something that is still largely misunderstood. I do disagree that your brain can't be changed, it is a fantastic organ and can by helped into acting and reacting in certain ways through therapy and non personality altering drugs (although I'm also not a fan of them) it is a muscle that can be strengthened and conditioned.

 

Have the hormones helped suppress those feelings you mentioned? I would have thought male hormones amplify and make these desires stronger and more frustrating? Feel free to tell me to mind my own business on that one.

 

Im glad you're happier than before and it's been worth it.

No worries, I do feel that it is useful to discuss this openly.

The hormones did make those desires stronger but only while on them, they reverted rapidly after stopping.

Most of the physical and personality changes have persisted (which was a good thing for me, mind).

Edited 25 January 2018 by brucey