Huddersfield (H)..up next!

[CosbehFox]

5 hours ago, Gubbins said:

Its like the theory that Puel is purposefully not playing to Vardys strengths, totally ignoring that every side outside the top 6 now sits deep to specifically neutralise him by making it far more difficult to get the ball in behind the defence. This was repeatedly and painfully evidenced by the unsuccessful hoofing we used under Ranieri and Shakespeare the previous two seasons. The theory does however work with the narrative that a lot of posters have that Puel is utterly terrible and must be dispensed with immediately ?

Dangers get highlighted by teams - I really think some people forgot the level of analysis that goes into football now behind the scenes. 

 

Vardy's record against top six where he can exploit the space behind a defence against his record outside of that is proof of it all. Add to that his England career where his goals generally come against top tier countries such as Germany and Spain. 

 

In addition to this point, I look at Salah and his current struggles. In fact I look at the Liverpool team as a whole not quite scoring as freely and their fans saying 'we haven't even got going yet' - it's a case that teams are not being so gung-ho and they are being more clever in how to defend Salah. They are winning with their quality but the goals are not so free

[Finnegan]

11 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Regarding full backs out of position, we are totally guilty of it, but take a look at Liverpool versus PSG tonight in the Champions league. Both Alexander-Arnold and Robertson are two of Liverpool's most threatening players despite being full backs.

 

That's what Puel is aiming to bring to us, but we just haven't got the balance right yet.

 

Yes but when Robertson goes forward, one of Milner or Alexander Arnold drops in to the back three. When Alexander Arnold goes forward, Robertson does the same on the other side.

 

That's the idea and it's something we've not got the hang of yet. 

[FrankieADZ]

16 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

The 2016/17 style wasn't going to last - as proved by getting whacked by everyone in sight early doors in that season. Teams play about fifteen yards deeper on us as there's a general appreciation that we are a good team with good players. 

 

Something had to change - whether a monumental shift was the correct way is hard to say. 

we was getting found out etc as you said, the rob and rush approach when we won the league wasnt ever going to be a good model for us over a number of seasons, think we had to change the style but im honestly not sure some of our players can adapt to it

 

 

[StriderHiryu]

41 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Yes but when Robertson goes forward, one of Milner or Alexander Arnold drops in to the back three. When Alexander Arnold goes forward, Robertson does the same on the other side.

 

That's the idea and it's something we've not got the hang of yet. 

They don't do that all the time. For their first goal, Alexander-Arnold put in the first cross, and Robertson punt in a second in the same phase of play, with both fullbacks still really far up the pitch. So it's not like they always have one fullback sitting and the other one bombing on. 

 

Anyway it's all semantics. I think we can all agree that bombing on full backs can result in creating a lot more chances offensively but there has to be a balance between attack and defence, and right now we don't have it!

[Hanan96]

22 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

They don't do that all the time. For their first goal, Alexander-Arnold put in the first cross, and Robertson punt in a second in the same phase of play, with both fullbacks still really far up the pitch. So it's not like they always have one fullback sitting and the other one bombing on. 

 

Anyway it's all semantics. I think we can all agree that bombing on full backs can result in creating a lot more chances offensively but there has to be a balance between attack and defence, and right now we don't have it!

Agree. But there's milner. We need mendy to drop deeper and maguire to do milner when we are in offense scheme

[sly1]

Loose he's gone .

Boring boring puel 

[FoxFossil]

Simmo back with Pereria in front of him, ditto Fuchs and Chillwell? People talk about our champion winning counter attacking style but how many games did we win 1-0 with heroic defending. Back to basics please.

[Lovejoy]

4 minutes ago, FoxFossil said:

Simmo back with Pereria in front of him, ditto Fuchs and Chillwell? People talk about our champion winning counter attacking style but how many games did we win 1-0 with heroic defending. Back to basics please.

Get Kante and Mahrez back in the side as well, c'mon lads!

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, FoxFossil said:

Simmo back with Pereria in front of him, ditto Fuchs and Chillwell? People talk about our champion winning counter attacking style but how many games did we win 1-0 with heroic defending. Back to basics please.

 

You do realise that Fuchs is Fuched and Simmo was never better than average. Neither of them are going to make up for Wes ageing. 

 

If they played , which I'm sure they won't, then Puel should resign. 

 

It's possible that Fuchs will get a run out against Fleetwood, I shouldn't think Simpson will even make that. He hasn't been one of our best 5 or 6 players even in the U23s games that he has played.

 

I can understand wanting to bring in Amartey or Johnson or Hughes or one of the other decent fast young defenders we have but Simmo's time has passed. We may as well bring David Nish and Steve Whitworth back in.

 

EDIT: We did win many 1-0 games towards the end of the season. It was great because we were winning the league. If Puel's team played games like that now we'd be bored and a bit pissed off. 

 

You also seem to forget that we had Huth saving the other defenders from the aerial bombardment and Kanté covering the front of the defence.

Edited 19 September 2018 by Guest

[rachhere]

9 minutes ago, FoxFossil said:

Simmo back with Pereria in front of him, ditto Fuchs and Chillwell? People talk about our champion winning counter attacking style but how many games did we win 1-0 with heroic defending. Back to basics please.

So much of that heroic defending was down to confidence and having something that they were really fighting for. Once we started conceding goals the following season, the confidence dropped and the floodgates opened. We need to develop something that is more stable and will stand the test over the next few seasons. 

[Lovejoy]

2 minutes ago, FIF said:

 

You do realise that Fuchs is Fuched and Simmo was never better than average. Neither of them are going to make up for Wes ageing. 

 

If they played , which I'm sure they won't, then Puel should resign. 

 

It's possible that Fuchs will get a run out against Fleetwood, I shouldn't think Simpson will even make that. He hasn't been one of our best 5 or 6 players even in the U23s games that he has played.

 

I can understand wanting to bring in Amartey or Johnson or Hughes or one of the other decent fast young defenders we have but Simmo's time has passed. We may as well bring David Nish and Steve Whitworth back in.

People wanting four fullbacks in the starting lineup!? You can see why they want Benitez.

[HankMarvin]

13 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

It's taken Liverpool a couple of years to get to this, feel we're close, just not quite there yet. Worrying is Puel won't be given the time Klopp has

Our team doesn’t press 

Liverpools high pressing game, wins back the ball quickly so when full backs are caught out of position - counter attacks are limited  

[STUHILL]

11 minutes ago, Lovejoy said:

People wanting four fullbacks in the starting lineup!? You can see why they want Benitez.

I can see Puel going with it though. I expect Amartey to come in and Pereira to push up, and wouldn't put it past him to do it on the other side too, as he has done it before with Chilwell.

 

It seems to be his go to reaction after losing, rather than changing the failing system. 

[RumbleFox]

2 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

The 2015/16 style wasn't going to last - as proved by getting whacked by everyone in sight early doors in the next season. Teams play about fifteen yards deeper on us as there's a general appreciation that we are a good team with good players. 

 

Something had to change - whether a monumental shift was the correct way is hard to say. 

I think you have hit the nail on the head.  They way we played when we won the league was fvcking beautiful and so effective but it was never sustainable.  You cannot CONSISTENTLY challenge for the top spot by sitting and absorbing and hitting on the break.  If you look at every league in the world the teams that generally win are those with the most possession and most shots.  I know lots on here are kinda "stats shmats" type folk and of course there are always outliers but in general those teams with the most "expected goals" do score more goals over the course of a season.  We were a freak of nature when we won the league.  A beautiful, exciting, brutal freak of nature but the football was never sustainable.  X

Edited 19 September 2018 by RumbleFox

[Dahnsouff]

I agree with much of the above - the title winning style has a fairly simple answer (sit deeper), that many teams never bothered with against these bubble soon to burst upstarts.

(Its pretty one dimensional, but extremely pleasing on the eye when it works - which it obviously did!)

But possesion based build up play leads to many variations when attacking, and is thus far more difficult to mitigate the dangers.

[STUHILL]

5 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

I agree with much of the above - the title winning style has a fairly simple answer (sit deeper), that many teams never bothered with against these bubble soon to burst upstarts.

(Its pretty one dimensional, but extremely pleasing on the eye when it works - which it obviously did!)

But possesion based build up play leads to many variations when attacking, and is thus far more difficult to mitigate the dangers.

Possession based with a purpose is needed. So far, we are seeing a lot of possession for the sake of it, and somehow many think that makes us a better team. I'd suggest even Big Sam and Pulis could get a team keeping possession the way we do if they wanted to. 

 

Having the ball is great, but we have to do something with it and I hope that is what Puel is pushing for. So far, he is still getting some basics wrong IMO, starting with the formation, but if he can recognise the issues we are having and not let stubbornness get in the way of making changes, then he could still be a very successful manager here. 

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, rachhere said:

So much of that heroic defending was down to confidence and having something that they were really fighting for. Once we started conceding goals the following season, the confidence dropped and the floodgates opened. We need to develop something that is more stable and will stand the test over the next few seasons. 

Our run at the end as well involved playing lots of middle of the road teams who I’d expect to us beat season after season at home. 

[jmono84]

I like to think Puel is still fine tuning.

 

We’re generally keeping the ball much better and creating some good chances from decent football which is a big positive so far this season.

 

The balance is completely off at the minute tho, the first two goals against Bournemouth is unacceptable, other big clubs play similar to what we do but they have fast quality centre backs and switched on CDM’s who know how to deal with situations when the counter attack is on... don’t get me wrong I wouldn’t mind if someone like Ronaldo skinned wes and scored but someone like Fraser being allowed to run with the ball, cut inside and score shows Wes/others are struggling in this new system.

 

I hope it can be rectified because I am enjoying watching us going forward but shite my pants every time we lose the ball 

[Ted Maul]

I'd like to think that our change in style & attacking full backs should pay dividends in games like this- ones which we complained about not being able to break teams down in over the last couple of seasons.

[Detroit Blues]

Changing systems takes time, and it can be a painful transition. You end up moving on from players who no longer fit that system. Simpson is a perfect example. He was exactly the rightback we needed under Ranieri, but he's a dinosaur by modern standards. He has no utility going forward, and so he's likely not going to play for any manager whose system requires attacking fullbacks to provide width.

 

Our players are not yet well drilled, and completely comfortable in Puel's new system. When you play against other teams, like Bournemouth, who are completely committed to Eddie Howe's system, it can get ugly. 

 

My preferred option is that we can stick with it, and hope that Puel can sure up the defense. I think the two positions to sure up are CB and RB. At CB, we all know Morgan's days are numbered. We hope that Söyüncü is the future, but Johnny Evans might have to be the bridge until Söyüncü is ready.

 

Ricardo Pereira is just not a premier league fullback. His defending is awful, and Ghezzal is just not good enough defensively to help him out. Perhaps Albrighton can provide enough defensive cover against lower quality teams to play Pereira at fullback, but I think we need to go out in January to get a fullback that can both attack and defend.

 

We've clearly made massive strides, tactically, in Puel's short time here. Even against Bournemouth we made quality chances. If we can become even average in defense, we will be a top 8 side in the premier league. 

 

If we do decide that Puel needs to be moved on, I think Rafa Benitez might be pragmatic enough to make Puel's vision a reality. We will not likely play as idealistic a style, and go right at teams like we do now. But I can see him strengthening our defense and making us more resolute while we still try and keep hold of the ball and create attacks within possession. 

[grobyfox1990]

4 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

In addition to this point, I look at Salah and his current struggles. In fact I look at the Liverpool team as a whole not quite scoring as freely and their fans saying 'we haven't even got going yet' - it's a case that teams are not being so gung-ho and they are being more clever in how to defend Salah. They are winning with their quality but the goals are not so free

I think by this they mean they are missing tonnes of chances. Salah wasn't missing open goals last season, he did at the KP. If you look at all their games, barring Brighton at home, they battered most of those teams. They should've beaten Spurs by 5 or 6, arguably same against PSG last night, should've won by a couple at least.

 

Salah is still getting time, space and chances, certainly did against Spurs on Saturday, but isn't scoring and is constantly giving the ball away.

 

Once they do 'get going' and start sticking those chances away, like last season, they could be a whole different prospect

[The Doctor]

13 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

I think by this they mean they are missing tonnes of chances. Salah wasn't missing open goals last season, he did at the KP. If you look at all their games, barring Brighton at home, they battered most of those teams. They should've beaten Spurs by 5 or 6, arguably same against PSG last night, should've won by a couple at least.

 

Salah is still getting time, space and chances, certainly did against Spurs on Saturday, but isn't scoring and is constantly giving the ball away.

 

Once they do 'get going' and start sticking those chances away, like last season, they could be a whole different prospect

Except he was and did so at our ground last year as well from about the same position at the same end iirc.

[La-li-lu-le-lo]

Whether we’re mid transition or not, time is something you do not get. We don’t have the technical capacity to fully carry out Puel’s style, we try to play pass and move football yet we’re awefully static. The fullbacks get pushed far too high up the pitch leaving Harry and Wes exposed, neither of them are particularly dynamic and this is always going to end badly when we concede possession. 

 

Ndidi and Mendy are two ball winners, it’s absolutely ridiculous that Puel is sticking with them, there’s no bite in the midfield at all, and they often get caught passing square and safe, N’didi is amazing at recovering the ball, so he needs a more technical ball player next to him. 

 

The wide men are being asked to tuck inside or over lap when the full backs come forward however, we seem to get stuck when we move the ball infield from the flanks and inevitably give possession away. Maddison is clearly a technical player and ordinarily suited to the mythical “number 10” role, however at the moment he’s taking too long on the ball and isn’t releasing it quick enough to Vardy, who in turn is getting caught offside More often because of the delayed pass. 

 

The style may work in time but st the moment it’s very square peg in round holes, and it doesn’t matter who the opposition is m, if the players aren’t 100% comfortable with playing this way the inevitable will happen. 

 

It may well we’ll all fall into place soon enough, and Puel finds that missing piece that links everything together, but I fear he’s already a dead man walking, one more slip and he will done for. Large percentages of the fan base are ready to lose it with him, start badly on Saturday and the atmosphere could soon turn toxic again. 

[somebum]

resounding 2 or 3 goal margin and the wind to change direction on here again. Cracks papered over for the gullible

[Finnegan]

5 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

They don't do that all the time. For their first goal, Alexander-Arnold put in the first cross, and Robertson punt in a second in the same phase of play, with both fullbacks still really far up the pitch. So it's not like they always have one fullback sitting and the other one bombing on. 

 

Anyway it's all semantics. I think we can all agree that bombing on full backs can result in creating a lot more chances offensively but there has to be a balance between attack and defence, and right now we don't have it!

 

But like I said, in those instances it then tends to be Milner who drops in to cover. The point is that they're well enough drilled that by and large someone's always covering and making it a three. 

 

Not always sure they'll lose discipline particularly when really pushed in to the opposition box maybe but for 90% of open play. 

 

Watch their shape next time they're on telly, they're really, really good at the moment and in top defensive form. A really good example for teams like us to imitate. 

 

Obviously they've got two fairly mobile centre halves and better quality round the pitch but a lot of the same logic can be applied. 

Edited 19 September 2018 by Finnegan