Brexit!

[StanSP]

It's fvcking rude and disgusting for those 21 MPs who choose to fight for what's right for the country over their party to be sacked.

 

It's cowardly and pathetic from Boris and anyone else responsible.

[BoyJones]

2 minutes ago, UniFox21 said:

No, you don't. 

In which case you'd either say we aren't signing him or call another vote with the new information.

 

Which is what I would love us to do on this; set down the facts of what would happen in either scenario and ask the country to vote again. It just feels like a bad precedent to set that we can just call another vote on the same subject? 

 

At this point I'm not sure if anything is fair about politics or this topic anymore. Whatever is decided, people are gonna be pissed and the country polarised.

 

its generally why I avoid politics, unlike science where there's a definitive answer, people refuse to budge on politics and leads to all sorts of shit.

 

 

 

 

Whilst on the topic; I find it odd how 21 people were sacked for opposing the PM. In usual business I could see the reasoning, but surely when they've been voted in, they should be able to vote how they wish? 

I thought they were supposed to vote how the constituency wished, not their own selfish wishes. I forgot that once elected they do there own thing and whilst a good majority of constituencies voted for Brexit, this has been conveniently forgotten over the last three years, and tonight in particular. 

 

The patronising comments which are a common theme here that "nobody knew what they were voting for" is frankly insulting and disgraceful. All the so called "truths" that is another common theme is just total conjecture, unless you have a crystal ball. The constant demeaning of people voting leave is one of the most shameful things of the last three years, as if you are totally stupid because you voted to go. The "remainers" go on about lack of democracy, but they have been actively campaigning against it since 2016. 

 

If if we have a second referendum it will clearly set up a precedent for a third, fourth, fifth etc, because people will know if they argue long enough they will force the issue through. People campaigning against BJ, saying he is trying to organise a coup, but happy to give total power to Brussels - you couldn't make it up! 

[StanSP]

2 minutes ago, BoyJones said:

The constant demeaning of people voting leave is one of the most shameful things of the last three years

That is most definitely not the most shameful thing of the last 3 years  

[Donk]

1 hour ago, TK95 said:

Complete shambles and a lot of people will soon lose faith in politics if they haven't already.

 

Whichever side people are on, it sets a dangerous precedent if the result of a referendum is not honoured.

Do you think people having policies forced on them that dont have the support of a majority, that are undermined by the governments own impact assessments as terrible and will almost certainly make everyones life worse yet are branded the will of the people by toffs who cant even be arsed to sit up straight are going restore faith in politicians?

 

The whole issue as has been said a thousand times is we dont know what people want SPECIFICALLY if we dont ask them SPECIFICALLY.

 

We dont even know if BREXIT still has a majority, let alone no deal brexit.

 

Leave won. We get it. 

 

The issue is that leave NOW looks nothing like the leave that was on the tin, and a no deal brexit does next to nothing to address many many issues that have been raised thousands of times.

 

Issues like customs difficulties. Rising goods prices. Irish border. Cross border security. Trading on significantly worse terms that can be rejected by other wto members, the pound tanking.

 

Many many issues.

 

A sensible deal that does all it can to work for everyone in society will start to restore peoples faith in politics and each other.

 

Continually dividing people by feeding them reasons to hate each other and certain politicians will not.

 

[hackneyfox]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Election will be on the 14th of October, promising leave on the 31st deal or not; Farage will fall in line I think.

How will Johnson get the 66% required to call an election?

1 hour ago, Legend_in_blue said:

Soubry's dig at Rees-Smug had me at him.  His expression was priceless.

What did she say?

1 hour ago, UniFox21 said:

 

Instead we have polarised groups so strongly against the 'other side' that none of them could put aside their beliefs and political allegiances to work for the best of the country.

 

They're paid, extremely generously, to work for the best of our country. Yet they've sat there and squabbled away our negotiating time. 

Quite frankly its embarrassing. 

It was a tory that called the referendum because of swivel eyed loons in the ERG, Major's 'bastard squad'.

Other parties may have wanted to change the EU from within but they didn't support Leave.

 

It's a tory mess, they should clear it up and pay the price.

[urban.spaceman]

 

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, Mark_w said:

Oh I've no doubt, we'll have to see a lot more of Nigel Farage for a start (it'd almost be worth a no-deal for him to piss off to America with the money he's made from it and never grace my TV again), but it's the fairest way of doing things.

Don't worry, by the time this is all done the US under new President Warren/Harris won't be somewhere he wants to go either.

[Jattdogg]

2 hours ago, BoyJones said:

People campaigning against BJ

Who would ever campaign against a BJ?

[BlueSi13]

7 hours ago, Mark_w said:

How does calling another referendum 3 years on, after years of debate & learning, set a dangerous precedent?

 

Hotel California

[Jon the Hat]

6 hours ago, hackneyfox said:

How will Johnson get the 66% required to call an election?

What did she say?

It was a tory that called the referendum because of swivel eyed loons in the ERG, Major's 'bastard squad'.

Other parties may have wanted to change the EU from within but they didn't support Leave.

 

It's a tory mess, they should clear it up and pay the price.

Labour stood in the last election on a Leave ticket.  

Boris can apparently go ahead with a simple majority if required by bringing a new bill saying “Notwithstanding the fixed term parliament act the date of the next general election will be the 15th October 2019.”

[BlueSi13]

Going to be an interesting few days now.  For all the talk of this being some sort of humiliation, the Prime Minister was ALWAYS going to lose a vote like this prior to the 31st due to the Parliamentary arithmetic heavily in favour of remain (75%)

 

Despite this, he will now wake up leading a Conservative Party with the most crystal clear message on Brexit for years and who have a ten point lead in the polls. 

 

The spanner in the works is if the opposition remarkably bottle a call for a General Election.  Such a scenario may be interesting as the PM may decide to accept the delay (further feeding the People Vs Parliament narrative), or try to block the bill by either filibustering it in the Lords, propose that Queen Consent be denied or looking to veto the extension in the European Union.

 

It's going to be a fascinating few days.

 

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/

[Nick]

Well I guess the question is...

 

Will the kids/youth of the UK register and vote? If they do we have a labour government and if they don’t we get Boris.

 

I don’t think labour will go for a GE prior to the 31st....

Edited 4 September 2019 by Nick

[Buce]

 

[Paninistickers]

47 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

Going to be an interesting few days now.  For all the talk of this being some sort of humiliation, the Prime Minister was ALWAYS going to lose a vote like this prior to the 31st due to the Parliamentary arithmetic heavily in favour of remain (75%)

 

Despite this, he will now wake up leading a Conservative Party with the most crystal clear message on Brexit for years and who have a ten point lead in the polls. 

 

The spanner in the works is if the opposition remarkably bottle a call for a General Election.  Such a scenario may be interesting as the PM may decide to accept the delay (further feeding the People Vs Parliament narrative), or try to block the bill by either filibustering it in the Lords, propose that Queen Consent be denied or looking to veto the extension in the European Union.

 

It's going to be a fascinating few days.

 

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/

Apologies if the point has already been raised, but poll leads mean little in this particular election.

 

It'll be a unique seat by seat street fight. The Tories will almost certainly lose 10+ seats in Scotland. Labour will step aside in some key Tory/Lib dem marginals.

 

Tories (or brexit party) have to swing the strongest brexit supporting seats away from huge labour majorities. 

 

The extreme right Tories have an electoral mountain to climb and have possibly wrecked their own party for ever

 

 

[Nick]

37 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Apologies if the point has already been raised, but poll leads mean little in this particular election.

 

It'll be a unique seat by seat street fight. The Tories will almost certainly lose 10+ seats in Scotland. Labour will step aside in some key Tory/Lib dem marginals.

 

Tories (or brexit party) have to swing the strongest brexit supporting seats away from huge labour majorities. 

 

The extreme right Tories have an electoral mountain to climb and have possibly wrecked their own party for ever

 

 

Don't underestimate the absolute hate for Corbyn among Tory mainstream/moderates voters... but yeah I hadn't considered the above points - thanks, good post.

[SpacedX]

11 hours ago, BoyJones said:

The patronising comments which are a common theme here that "nobody knew what they were voting for" is frankly insulting and disgraceful.

The architects of the entire Leave Campaign didn't know what they were voting for ffs. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/24/brexit-more-complex-than-first-moon-landing-says-academic-study

 

This entire shambles, like Trump, was a consequence of populist national sentiment. You can't reduce the complexities of Brexit to a ****ing facebook meme.  Subjects that are suitable for referendum are issues of societal values that do not involve complicated questions of economics. For important issues that involve change, it should be a decisive vote. You should not decide something with a 51.9% vote. In California, referendum with heavy fiscal consequences require 60 to 66% of voters. Why did Britain, the leading democracy, not look to other countries for models on how to hold a referendum? - which is in itself, a compelling argument for a second plebiscite on negotiated Brexit 

 

For even the most informed legal practitioners, political scientists and analysts Brexit has revealed itself to be a technical labyrinth. If academics and seasoned journalists cannot fully explain the implications and mechanisms of Brexit, how then could Britain’s populace fully grasp it? 

 

So when you placed your cross in the box marked 'leave' - you can of course say with all confidence that you understood the practical consequences of direct and indirect jurisdiction and the continuation of CJEU rulings, FTA and MFN principles, MFF commitments, future ratification of GI and PGI, reciprocal association rights, the future implications for GSP and GSP+ the significance of secondary powers of the Henry VIII clauses affording the power to regulate by proclamation, the clear impracticalities of the Great Repeal Bill, cumulation in terms of RoO, revisions to articles 45 (2), 18, 20 - 21 and 45 - 48 TFEU? - before we even start on the fragmentation of the legal fine print.  

Edited 4 September 2019 by Line-X

[Rob1742]

We have fallen into the trap of accepting how politicians work, and we are now paying for it. We are taking sides in an argument you would normally walk away from if it wasn’t political.

 

1. There was a referendum. It was very poorly put together, it was difficult to understand, and as usual there were lies ( Boris bus a prime example) , so spin was involved rather than fact.

 

2. One side won, but the voting showed that it was a close situation, so we were fairly split.

 

3. The government tried and failed to exit as per the result of the referendum. Nothing wrong with this bit, apart from when the PM started negotiating it highlighted how poor she was. 

 

4. Someone else is now having a go, but now it’s about personal gain, about staying in their positions, so every move now is about their own gain and not the countries.

 

5.If this was about a personal purchase, or maybe a house move, or some building work and you were unsure of the outcome, there would be huge risk, you would not go ahead. You would say this just isn’t right, let’s take a time out. But these people are concerned about a vote, their positions so risks and concerns to others are secondary.

 

6. People now want another vote as they understand the implications more. I get this. I suppose it’s like taking another look at a house after you initially decided to buy it. You have evaluated the situation in more detail and your thoughts a while later aren’t the same.

 

7. The government strangely are not discussing any benefits of leaving. There is plenty of news on the negatives of leaving, but nothing coming out on the positives with regards to jobs etc, which highlight more they are just after the vote.

 

8. The people have taken a side and are fighting their corner, when really if it was a personal situation like a house move they would not want to go ahead until they are sure it’s the right move. 

 

This is has been a complete farce from day one and we get embroiled by it, take sides when we really should just send them back to sort out a better solution and not come back until they get one.

 

I personally think we should have a people’s vote as these clowns are risking so much for our country. But we shouldn’t have this vote until they have something that can they put to us, that they have negotiated, and then they put the risks to us, without spin so we can decide. If they can’t get to this point, then don’t do it until you can get to the point of presenting something to us.

 

We deserve to know the deal, the benefits, the risks, just like we would do if it was like us buying a house.

 

I don’t care if we stay or leave. Well I do at the moment, I think we should stay at the moment as it’s too risky, there is too much of the unknown. But I am quite happy to change my mind if the benefits were lad out, a proper plan, so you could see what you are getting out of it. There may well be lots of positives, and I would be happy for change if it was positive, but as usual it’s about positions in government, personal gain, them playing games with our future rather than them putting something together that we can benefit from.

 

Seriously nobody would buy a car Ora house or any crucial purchase without having known what the financials are and what the outcome would be. Yet these people are playing games with our future and it’s like a second hand car salesman selling you a car without knowing anything about it. 

 

Ps - I never voted in the referendum. I didn’t understand it. It was clear it was just another load of spin, and I made a conscious decision not to vote as I thought we deserved better with regards to information. 

Edited 4 September 2019 by Rob1742

[Leicester_Loyal]

Kicking the can down the road again, we'll still be here at the same position two years down the line because MPs won't approve the current deal (because it's a crap one), they don't want no deal and the EU won't change the deal because as it stands everything stays exactly as it was pre-referendum.

 

As it stands Boris would have a slight majority if it went to a GE. If he ends up bringing Farage into the fray he will swallow up the Brexit Party votes too.

[Nick]

11 minutes ago, Rob1742 said:

We have fallen into the trap of accepting how politicians work, and we are now paying for it. We are taking sides in an argument you would normally walk away from if it wasn’t political.

 

1. There was a referendum. It was very poorly put together, it was difficult to understand, and as usual there were lies ( Boris bus a prime example) , so spin was involved rather than fact.

 

2. One side won, but the voting showed that it was a close situation, so we were fairly split.

 

3. The government tried and failed to exit as per the result of the referendum. Nothing wrong with this bit, apart from when the PM started negotiating it highlighted how poor she was. 

 

4. Someone else is now having a go, but now it’s about personal gain, about staying in their positions, so every move now is about their own gain and not the countries.

 

5.If this was about a personal purchase, or maybe a house move, or some building work and you were unsure of the outcome, there would be huge risk, you would not go ahead. You would say this just isn’t right, let’s take a time out. But these people are concerned about a vote, their positions so risks and concerns to others are secondary.

 

6. People now want another vote as they understand the implications more. I get this. I suppose it’s like taking another look at a house after you initially decided to buy it. You have evaluated the situation in more detail and your thoughts a while later aren’t the same.

 

7. The government strangely are not discussing any benefits of leaving. There is plenty of news on the negatives of leaving, but nothing coming out on the positives with regards to jobs etc, which highlight more they are just after the vote.

 

8. The people have taken a side and are fighting their corner, when really if it was a personal situation like a house move they would not want to go ahead until they are sure it’s the right move. 

 

This is has been a complete farce from day one and we get embroiled by it, take sides when we really should just send them back to sort out a better solution and not come back until they get one.

 

I personally think we should have a people’s vote as these clowns are risking so much for our country. But we shouldn’t have this vote until they have something that can they put to us, that they have negotiated, and then they put the risks to us, without spin so we can decide. If they can’t get to this point, then don’t do it until you can get to the point of presenting something to us.

 

We deserve to know the deal, the benefits, the risks, just like we would do if it was like us buying a house.

 

I don’t care if we stay or leave. Well I do at the moment, I think we should stay at the moment as it’s too risky, there is too much of the unknown. But I am quite happy to change my mind if the benefits were lad out, a proper plan, so you could see what you are getting out of it. There may well be lots of positives, and I would be happy for change if it was positive, but as usual it’s about positions in government, personal gain, them playing games with our future rather than them putting something together that we can benefit from.

 

Seriously nobody would buy a car Ora house or any crucial purchase without having known what the financials are and what the outcome would be. Yet these people are playing games with our future and it’s like a second hand car salesman selling you a car without knowing anything about it. 

 

Ps - I never voted in the referendum. I didn’t understand it. It was clear it was just another load of spin, and I made a conscious decision not to vote as I thought we deserved better with regards to information. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 hour ago, BlueSi13 said:

Going to be an interesting few days now.  For all the talk of this being some sort of humiliation, the Prime Minister was ALWAYS going to lose a vote like this prior to the 31st due to the Parliamentary arithmetic heavily in favour of remain (75%)

 

Despite this, he will now wake up leading a Conservative Party with the most crystal clear message on Brexit for years and who have a ten point lead in the polls. 

 

The spanner in the works is if the opposition remarkably bottle a call for a General Election.  Such a scenario may be interesting as the PM may decide to accept the delay (further feeding the People Vs Parliament narrative), or try to block the bill by either filibustering it in the Lords, propose that Queen Consent be denied or looking to veto the extension in the European Union.

 

It's going to be a fascinating few days.

 

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/

Spot on. We've literally never seen anything like this before in our politics, whatever side of the fence you're on, it's going to be fascinating.

[Rob1742]

1 minute ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Spot on. We've literally never seen anything like this before in our politics, whatever side of the fence you're on, it's going to be fascinating.

Fascinating. I know what you mean by what you put, but it just amazes me how they treat us and I can’t help but feel anger rather than fascination.

 

Its our future, our children’s future and they are playing games with it. 

 

Where is the plan, where is the good news, where are the positives? 

 

Take a breathe, come back with something we can hold our hats on, come back with something we can embrace, something we can get behind.

 

I am not knocking your reply I really am not, but I just hope they don’t railroad something through for the sake of their positions that one day people will suffer from rather than be fascinated by. 

 

We all deserve much much better than what any of these parties are doing at the moment. 

 

 

[David Guiza]

9 hours ago, BoyJones said:

1. I thought they were supposed to vote how the constituency wished, not their own selfish wishes. I forgot that once elected they do there own thing and whilst a good majority of constituencies voted for Brexit, this has been conveniently forgotten over the last three years, and tonight in particular. 

 

2. The patronising comments which are a common theme here that "nobody knew what they were voting for" is frankly insulting and disgraceful. All the so called "truths" that is another common theme is just total conjecture, unless you have a crystal ball. The constant demeaning of people voting leave is one of the most shameful things of the last three years, as if you are totally stupid because you voted to go. The "remainers" go on about lack of democracy, but they have been actively campaigning against it since 2016. 

 

If if we have a second referendum it will clearly set up a precedent for a third, fourth, fifth etc, because people will know if they argue long enough they will force the issue through. People campaigning against BJ, saying he is trying to organise a coup, but 3. happy to give total power to Brussels - you couldn't make it up! 

1. That works for both sides. If Brexit worked like that then Scotland, Leicester, Leeds, York etc would still be a part of the European Union, whilst Wales, Nottingham, Derby and Coventry left. My constituency was remain, but my MP voted against that and has done throughout the entire mess. Have you considered for one second that the MPs may not be 'selfish' and rather trying to protect the best interests of their constituents - seeing as they see the bigger picture?

 

 2. That's effectively a fact, and on both sides too. The campaigning on both sides was abysmal and based on horror stories, rather than fact. I was living in Kenilworth at the time of the referendum and was once handed a leaflet on how the EU was anti-Christian. I'm sure the same happened on the opposite side too, it was embarrassing. Vote Leave operated largely on damning the EU in every way possible, including blatant lies, rather than facts and suggestions as to how we could thrive in a post Brexit World. Vote Remain were lazy and assumed that the result would be a foregone conclusion, Cameron didn't conceive for one second that he would lose and only offered the vote in the first place to appease certain corners of his party. As for Boris, the main wrote two different newspaper articles on whether to back Remain or Leave. Just a total mess. To suggest that any real majority on either side had even a basic knowledge of how the European Union operates prior to the referendum is just not true.  

 

3. What exactly is total power? I can happily acknowledge the faults of the EU, but I'm fed up of seeing people suggest that they are some sort of fascist dictator that has enslaved us for decades. 

[Donk]

2 hours ago, BlueSi13 said:

 

Hotel California

Whats your opposition to a 2nd referendum?

 

From your posts you seem like a "just leave i dont care anything will do we didnt vote for a deal" kind of person.

 

Presumably there are lots of others like you on the leave side and if there are, itll confirm they WANT a no deal exit and thats the path to follow to leave.

 

Obviously its a rhetorical question because your opposition is you think leave would lose a second referendum so we cant have one.

 

But if there was a genuine majority for no deal, that option will win and we get on with it.

 

You can say "i didnt vote for a deal" till youre blue in the face but until there is consensus amongst leavers what you want and a way is found to deliver specifically that, then its sensible to wait until we can satisfy that.

[Buce]

36 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Kicking the can down the road again, we'll still be here at the same position two years down the line because MPs won't approve the current deal (because it's a crap one), they don't want no deal and the EU won't change the deal because as it stands everything stays exactly as it was pre-referendum.

 

As it stands Boris would have a slight majority if it went to a GE. If he ends up bringing Farage into the fray he will swallow up the Brexit Party votes too.

 

You can't possibly know that, there are far too many variables involved.

[Leicester_Loyal]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

You can't possibly know that, there are far too many variables involved.

Looking at the opinion polls from the last few weeks. I should have added that.

 

PS. Obviously they are not gonna be 100% accurate or true, before someone pulls me up on it.

Edited 4 September 2019 by Leicester_Loyal