Corona Virus

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, hackneyfox said:

Not been on this thread for some time.

 

Why aren't we allowed to criticise the government for their perceived lack of forethought and planning?

It's time people did get angry rather than wait till a government inquiry tells us that 'lessons have been learn't after tens of thousands have died when they shouldn't have.

 

Am I missing the 'angry thread'?

Nope, no it’s not. That comes later.

[hackneyfox]

Just now, Dahnsouff said:

Nope, no it’s not. That comes later.

It should come now, people are needlessly dying.

If certain people in government believed that people were rightly getting angry then we may have had a lockdown earlier and we may have had a health minister who didn't make ridiculous claims about the number of tests and PPE that would son be in place. He may also have decided not to use the term 'I can't waive a mage wand'.

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, hackneyfox said:

It should come now, people are needlessly dying.

If certain people in government believed that people were rightly getting angry then we may have had a lockdown earlier and we may have had a health minister who didn't make ridiculous claims about the number of tests and PPE that would son be in place. He may also have decided not to use the term 'I can't waive a mage wand'.

Your anger is referring to issues in the past, and no amount of griping will now resolve that. All griping now achieves is that focus shifts from addressing the current situation. I am all for the government being accountable, but holding them accountable right now serves no purposes except letting of steam for the individual doing so. Even worse, it will mean government/civil service machinery would be tasked with responding rather than dealing with the current crisis.

[Sampson]

6 minutes ago, hackneyfox said:

It should come now, people are needlessly dying.

If certain people in government believed that people were rightly getting angry then we may have had a lockdown earlier and we may have had a health minister who didn't make ridiculous claims about the number of tests and PPE that would son be in place. He may also have decided not to use the term 'I can't waive a mage wand'.

Dahnsouff is right, that shit needs to be put aside until later.

 

It serves absolutely no purpose right now - learning practical and pragmatic lessons for the next phase of this and how we come out of lockdown serves a purpose. Playing the blame game doesn't, it only creates a fragmented society and government which is the last thing you need right now.

 

Absolutely the government's actions need to be scrutinised when everything is over post-vaccine, but what exactly is the purpose of "getting angry" right now other than driving society and the government apart.

Edited 20 April 2020 by Sampson

[bovril]

To be fair some people were saying "criticism needs to wait" back in March, before the government implemented stricter measures, which came, apparently, after they saw models suggesting their approach was going to cost thousands more lives. At that time the private sector was moving faster than they were. If we'd kept calm and carried on while quickly becoming by far the worst hit country in Europe, would we still have had to wait for the right time to criticise?

Generally there's not much worse than death. And no 'right time' to criticise authorities for not doing their best to minimise it. 

[hackneyfox]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

To be fair some people were saying "criticism needs to wait" back in March, before the government implemented stricter measures, which came, apparently, after they saw models suggesting their approach was going to cost thousands more lives. At that time the private sector was moving faster than they were. If we'd kept calm and carried on while quickly becoming by far the worst hit country in Europe, would we still have had to wait for the right time to criticise?

Generally there's not much worse than death. And no 'right time' to criticise authorities for not doing their best to minimise it. 

Spot on Bovril. We don't need to wait until after the results of an inquiry are published and the governent say that lessons will be learnt.

Saw an MP say yesterday that Johnson should take charge of any inquiry that is to come.

That's the last thing we need.

[Dahnsouff]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

To be fair some people were saying "criticism needs to wait" back in March, before the government implemented stricter measures, which came, apparently, after they saw models suggesting their approach was going to cost thousands more lives. At that time the private sector was moving faster than they were. If we'd kept calm and carried on while quickly becoming by far the worst hit country in Europe, would we still have had to wait for the right time to criticise?

Generally there's not much worse than death. And no 'right time' to criticise authorities for not doing their best to minimise it. 

Totally get this. If there is enough of a ruckus, would the Government be forced to change for the better in the short term. It is a difficult unknowable question I fear. So many variables in this situation, it is a truly horrendous situation and change at this point may be to the benefit, but how to tell? 

[Tinman]

 

[Sampson]

9 minutes ago, bovril said:

To be fair some people were saying "criticism needs to wait" back in March, before the government implemented stricter measures, which came, apparently, after they saw models suggesting their approach was going to cost thousands more lives. At that time the private sector was moving faster than they were. If we'd kept calm and carried on while quickly becoming by far the worst hit country in Europe, would we still have had to wait for the right time to criticise?

Generally there's not much worse than death. And no 'right time' to criticise authorities for not doing their best to minimise it. 

 

But those things were present desicions at the time. Not past desicions as you're talking about now. Now they're past desicions and getting angry about them now is counterproductive.

 

What is worth angry about on the government presently that serves any purpose? The government can't realistically do much about global PPE or testing supply chains from other countries and private businesses right now. 

 

Only thing I could think that is possibly worth getting constructively angry about is lockdown not going far enough and banning outdoor exercise, but R number seems to be well below 1 at the moment in the community and selfish individuals are a much bigger problem with regards to that right now.

[String fellow]

Let's hope that Professor Sikora is right. Nevertheless, 449 is still an appallingly high figure.

[FoxesDeb]

1 hour ago, hackneyfox said:

Not been on this thread for some time.

 

Why aren't we allowed to criticise the government for their perceived lack of forethought and planning?

It's time people did get angry rather than wait till a government inquiry tells us that 'lessons have been learn't after tens of thousands have died when they shouldn't have.

 

Am I missing the 'angry thread'?

What is it, exactly, that you are angry about? 

[hackneyfox]

22 minutes ago, Sampson said:

 

But those things were present desicions at the time. Not past desicions as you're talking about now. Now they're past desicions and getting angry about them now is counterproductive.

 

What is worth angry about on the government presently that serves any purpose? The government can't realistically do much about global PPE or testing supply chains from other countries and private businesses right now. 

 

Only thing I could think that is possibly worth getting constructively angry about is lockdown not going far enough and banning outdoor exercise, but R number seems to be well below 1 at the moment in the community and selfish individuals are a much bigger problem with regards to that right now.

Should we not get angry with a government that decided (in the face of advice from the WHO and other countries further along the curve) to drop test, track and trace?

Yes they've now decided to try and start this going again but it's far too late hence the supply chains having run dry.

[hackneyfox]

1 minute ago, FoxesDeb said:

What is it, exactly, that you are angry about? 

Try reading this and then tell me you're not angry.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/18/how-did-britain-get-its-response-to-coronavirus-so-wrong?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

Just in case you think it's a leftie paper just having a go The Times also waded in yesterday.

[FoxesDeb]

Just now, hackneyfox said:

Try reading this and then tell me you're not angry.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/18/how-did-britain-get-its-response-to-coronavirus-so-wrong?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

Just in case you think it's a leftie paper just having a go The Times also waded in yesterday.

I didn't say I wasn't angry, I just asked why you were. 

 

And yes I saw the article printed in The Sunday Times yesterday. I've also read the Government response pointing out that it was mostly lies and generally rebuking everything it said. 

[yorkie1999]

43 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Totally get this. If there is enough of a ruckus, would the Government be forced to change for the better in the short term. It is a difficult unknowable question I fear. So many variables in this situation, it is a truly horrendous situation and change at this point may be to the benefit, but how to tell? 

The government will be judged in the next election. Personally i'll be sticking with my usual spoiled ballot paper as a general protest against authority and sticking it to the man.  

[Salisbury Fox]

3 minutes ago, hackneyfox said:

Try reading this and then tell me you're not angry.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/18/how-did-britain-get-its-response-to-coronavirus-so-wrong?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

Just in case you think it's a leftie paper just having a go The Times also waded in yesterday.

For the opportunity of balance, have you read the Government response to the Times article? 
 

https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/04/19/response-to-sunday-times-insight-article/?fbclid=IwAR2_tmpCjYQXAgOlB7b9_pbH7hh4Rlg7glThCvxN8OX4jMTqKnhQTjwW878
 

 

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

1 hour ago, hackneyfox said:

Not been on this thread for some time.

 

Why aren't we allowed to criticise the government for their perceived lack of forethought and planning?

It's time people did get angry rather than wait till a government inquiry tells us that 'lessons have been learn't after tens of thousands have died when they shouldn't have.

 

Am I missing the 'angry thread'?

A very wild and presumptive post. Nice to know you had the answer

[Costock_Fox]

2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Why are Tony Blair and Gordon Brown still comfortably our best prominent politicians? Obviously not being in front line politics makes it much easier but Blair's interview today was class

Iraq my brain to see where it all went wrong with Blair.

[yorkie1999]

18 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

For the opportunity of balance, have you read the Government response to the Times article? 
 

https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/04/19/response-to-sunday-times-insight-article/?fbclid=IwAR2_tmpCjYQXAgOlB7b9_pbH7hh4Rlg7glThCvxN8OX4jMTqKnhQTjwW878
 

 

I did and the opening statement of "at a very basic level, this is wrong", concerning  the cobr meeting being on the forth friday and not the third friday, was just pathetic tit for tat which set the whole tone of the response to be one of trying to work out what was true and what was not.

[worth_the_wait]

33 minutes ago, hackneyfox said:

Just in case you think it's a leftie paper just having a go The Times also waded in yesterday.

I suspect The Times waded in for its own bitter reason.   Now what could that be I wonder?  Leaving the EU possibly?

[worth_the_wait]

On today's UK briefing, some chappie was asking about the wisdom of allowing those fans from Madrid to travel to Liverpool for the Champions League match.

 

But we allowed 3,000 Villa fans to come over to Leicester that same week, and no telling what diseases those Brummie had. 

[fuchsntf]

1 hour ago, Dahnsouff said:

Your anger is referring to issues in the past, and no amount of griping will now resolve that. All griping now achieves is that focus shifts from addressing the current situation. I am all for the government being accountable, but holding them accountable right now serves no purposes except letting of steam for the individual doing so. Even worse, it will mean government/civil service machinery would be tasked with responding rather than dealing with the current crisis.

The World hasnt stopped... We still Need to question  how then do you put pressure on the politicians  to get PPE supplied to the Front line..NOW..!!!

Too demand no lies,no BS,and not admitting even denying  problem areas.

Not just in PPE,but all areas....If a govt. Asks everybody to alter their lives,accept ,to understand ( for the healthy & People with problems),the expected following of long Time society changes then that governmnt has to be Up-front,be honest,Not dithering and Show there is no suppression of truth or weak excuses....

Incompetence,and mistakes,have to be seen to be Noted Not denied ,then changes seen to be actioned!!!

 

Even in this or any crisis,accountability still has to be Held to ' Any Time, future & the present' They should be put under pressure from the public & electorate!!!

Its Not long ago they sent our Military forces,and soldiers died without protective equipment...Troubleshooting,analyse,Re alignment,reassesments,do Not stop,

Its our duty to see Admins & Politicians are supported,but also their words & actions questioned....!!! 

Concerns on NHS shortfalls,especially the frontliners,has to be Followed & reported,They are Breaking their backs,risking their lives & giving so much...

So I expect our leaders,our elected government & ministers,to be pressured to get their decisions in Action & words of truth,right..!! Not Next year..Now.!!!

[reynard]

Hope this link works but this is a very interesting break down of the deaths in England (not whole UK).

A good indication of time lag but it is fairly clear that after around 4 or 5 days from the date of death the new numbers reported for that day fall off significantly. Obviously we need to wait and see the time lag effect for the weekend but these do look to be pointing in the right direction.

https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1252223911716098049/photo/1

Edited 20 April 2020 by reynard

[FoxesDeb]

31 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

I did and the opening statement of "at a very basic level, this is wrong", concerning  the cobr meeting being on the forth friday and not the third friday, was just pathetic tit for tat which set the whole tone of the response to be one of trying to work out what was true and what was not.

You conveniently missed out most of the response:

 

Claim – On the third Friday in January Coronavirus was already spreading around the world but the government ‘brushed aside’ the threat in an hour-long COBR meeting and said the risk to the UK public was ‘low’.

Response – At a very basic level, this is wrong. The meeting was on the fourth Friday in January. The article also misrepresents the Government’s awareness of Covid 19, and the action we took before this point. Health Secretary Matt Hancock was first alerted to Covid 19 on 3 January and spoke to Departmental officials on 6th Jan before receiving written advice from the UK Health Security Team.

He brought the issue to the attention of the Prime Minister and they discussed Covid 19 on 7 January. The government’s scientific advisory groups started to meet in mid-January and Mr Hancock instituted daily coronavirus meetings. He updated Parliament as soon as possible, on January 23rd.

The risk level was set to “Low” because at the time our scientific advice was that the risk level to the UK public at that point was low. The first UK case was not until 31 January. The specific meaning of “public health risk” refers to the risk there is to the public at precisely that point. The risk was also higher than it had been before - two days earlier it had been increased “Very Low” to “Low” in line with clinical guidance from the Chief Medical Officer.

The WHO did not formally declare that coronavirus was a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC) until 30 January, and only characterised it as a global pandemic more than a month later, on 11 March. The UK was taking action and working to improve its preparedness from early January

[reynard]

21 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

I suspect The Times waded in for its own bitter reason.   Now what could that be I wonder?  Leaving the EU possibly?

Can't see any reason Thee Times would wade in without proper cause. They are basically a Tory supporting paper. The very fact the Governement had to come out and point out "errors" probably indicates there is a certain amount of truth in the article.

There are obvious areas that have not gone that well. The provision of PPE is obviously one and the breadth of testing is another. Several weeks into the crisis and PPE is still not with care workers for eg.

As to testing we are still nowhere near the required level and frankly it doesn't look like we will ge there.My cousin works in the big testing station in London and is still saying that whatever ministers say there simply isn't the necessary stuff to allow for anywhere near 100k tests per day.