Reconsidering VAR

[pleatout]

My two pennorth.

I was a ref, not a very good one. Rose to the heady heights of Sunday mornings, but still a senior county official.  That was all I wanted BECAUSE I realised very quickly there is a clique in reffing circles. You are in or out.  Frankly I look like a w*****r without a blazer and I couldn't cope being in  a room full of blazer wearers!

 

I've met Kevin friend.  I'm sure he's good to small mammals and his mother.  Tip for you kev, erm when you drag another refs assistants off for a mentoring chat, how about you have the courtesy to speak to the ref.  How about you say hello, perhaps don't say go away, this is none of your business, i'm talking to these lads.  That might leave peop!e to think you are an arrogant cock.

 

And that brings me to var.

Refs don't want to be told nor admit they've made a clear and obvious error.  Until they grow up and acknowledge that it isn't a sign of weakness to admit youre not perfect var won't work.

 

 

Var has been shocking.  Wolves, their goal was a goal.  If you need lines and centimetres, it wasn't clear and obvious.  Hamza got booked but he got the ball first.  var got both wrong.   

Man city if praet  was handball so was kdb.  And the keeper incident was nasty.  

 

Bin var, it isn't going to change as the refs don't want it.  Ive said elsewhere it should be there for the howlers, Wes  at anfield, Speedy at Wembley, whoever it was at cheatsea  in the cup ect

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 February 2020 by pleatout

[Vlad the Fox]

Problem with a review system is that you’ll still get shit decisions. Imagine Maddison calls for a review after kdb handball, var look at it and decide it’s not handball, appeal lost. Kelechi flattened, call for review, var decide no foul, appeal lost. 
 

var officials need to be a separate organisation to the refs, maybe train ex players up.

 

I also got the feeling there’s an arrogance about refs. It’s as if they believe they’re professional athletes, playing the sport, an inflated ego and full of their own importance. Twattenbergs comments regarding the chelsea v spurs fixture highlights this belief.

 

var needs to help the official, he refs the game, if something happens the var call him to go and have a look on the monitor and they can discuss it but ultimately the ref makes the decision. 
 

Personally however, I’m done with it, there’s too many subjective calls for it to ever be controversy free and by that nature it’s no improvement on the good old days of no var. if technology could be eventually used for offsides making the decisions fairly instant I’d be all for that but until then leave it out. 

[worth_the_wait]

The epitath on the VAR gravestone should read:

 

Saturday 22nd Feb 2020 

Burnley v Bournemouth

Bournemouth equalise.  1-1. 

No they don't.  It's actually a penalty to Burnley for handball.

But it wasn't handball, because although he stuck his arm out, it actually hit him on the shoulder/top of the arm.   Which isn't handball.

2-0 to Burnley.

 

VAR RIP.

[worth_the_wait]

Good to see the results of this latest poll.

 

Of 231 replies:

 - Not a single person think it has improved football,

 - 157 people (68%) think that it has just moved the problem elsewhere or is crap (bin it).

 

In my humble opinion, VAR is the iceberg that will sink the football ship.   Tinkering with it just amounts to shuffling chairs on the Titanic.

 

The above poll result shows there is some hope for humanity.   I feel uplifted! 

[Dahnsouff]

As stated loads of times. The tech is not the issue. People is the issue.

 

[CollinsLCFC]

Football is a fast paced game and is all about momentum, which gives the Crowd energy and atmosphere. VAR take all this away, leaving you twiddling your thumbs for minutes on end or refraining from celebrating a goal incase it is ruled out.

 

Being so fast paced, a lot of incidents in football are down to different interpretations and opinions.  I think, if VAR is to continue, it should have 3 VAR officials to review and if no unanimous decision is made, the on-field decision remains or the on-field Referee reviews and makes his own decision (which will take even more time than it does currently).  

 

I doubt it will ever be perfect, with or without VAR, there is always going to be human error.

[Aylestone Fox]

I read topics here quite alot but very rarely post but VAR seems to get everybody wanting to have their say, so here goes my opinion for whats its worth.

 

If you take away the interpretation of the individual/official looking at the replays and outline the course of action required for the incidents being reviewed, thus taking away the grey area's it might just get to work efficiently.

With the officials being told what guidelines to follow instead of their interpretation it might eradicate some of the inconsistencies we're currently seeing.

 

What also drives me nuts is people in the crowd shouting for VAR when an iffy decision is made then singing f'*~k VAR when it goes against you, you either want it or you don't lol...

 

Anyway lets batter the Canaries and secure Champions League football next season...

[squarez]

My suggestion for improving VAR would be to replace the current system with a streamlined one in which officials on the pitch make decisions in real time and all decisions are final.

 

If there are any mistakes in favour of one team they will inVARiably even themselves out over time as per the universal law of averages.

 

We had a similar system for approximately 150 years and I thought it worked pretty well.

Edited 25 February 2020 by squarez

[Mark_w]

Just moved the errors. Stick with it (with some tweaks) and focus on improving the quality of referees/officials.

[StanSP]

28 minutes ago, squarez said:

My suggestion for improving VAR would be to replace the current system with a streamlined one in which officials on the pitch make decisions in real time and all decisions are final.

 

If there are any mistakes in favour of one team they will inVARiably even themselves out over time as per the universal law of averages.

 

We had a similar system for approximately 150 years and I thought it worked pretty well.

No they won't. 

[RonnieTodger]

It's ****ing awful and always has been. People will blame the Premier League, or the referees or the people using it. That's what VAR is. Nobody doubts that cameras work. 

 

This by far above any other season than 2015/16 that I've witnessed as a Leicester fan, yet I've never enjoyed football less. The waiting around is shit, the finite lines are shit and the same inconsistent decisions are as shit as the referees were before. 

 

When all the pundits and journalists were clamouring for it after the 2018 World Cup, so many match-going fans knew it would be awful and a plague on the game. It's an absolute myth that it works well abroad, it's equally shit in Germany and Italy. Now it's here and the same pundits and journalists want it gone.

 

Sure, it's given us the Iheanacho winner v Everton and played a big part in our 0-9 win at Southampton but I'd get rid of it in a heartbeat. By and large, the offside decisions have been correct but they're literally not worth the wait. 

 

[Dahnsouff]

Did anyone **really** expect this too work in this first season? 

[leicesterseddon]

I've always been against using VAR in any form. I'm prepared to live with the idea that bad on-field decisions will stand in return for a fast-paced game.

 

To be honest, I suspect that's what the vast majority of matchgoing fans think (and have always thought).

 

The Premier League only introduced it because of pressure from television/pundits, I can't recall that many fans lobbying for it.

 

Problem is the authorities will look at the opposition and say 'this shows we need to reform VAR' - they will never consider scrapping it.

[Detroit Blues]

I am going to take some flak for this, but I will attempt to defend VAR.

 

I know a lot of people here watch other sports that have some form of VAR / Instant replay / etc. Every other professional sport has managed to successfully implement some version of VAR. 

 

The NFL has had some form of video replay review for over 30 years. Today, it is currently used on every scoring play, turnover (when the possession changes from one team to the other), and by request of the head coach via a challenge flag. The only issue we have with instant replay in American football, is when the rules being applied are subjective. For instance, a fumble (when a player loses the ball) is objective. When the review happens, we just have to check off the following boxes - Is the ball out? Is the player's knee down before the ball comes out? Is there a clear recovery?  Where the NFL gets into trouble, is when they try and use instant replay on something more subjective (like pass interference). 

 

This is the Detroit Blues plan to fix VAR.

 

1) Force the head referee to look at the video. It's not a choice. They cannot just take the 4th officials word for it. They cannot defer responsibility for the actions of VAR. It might take another minute of stoppage, but getting the call right is too important.

 

2) Clear up the FIFA rules to make offside and handball more objective. 

 

Offside - We have to draw the line somewhere. Pick a ruling and stick with it. It doesn't matter if the player is a milimeter or a yard offside, offside is offside. 

 

Handball - IMO, the whole issue  comes down to two issues. The subjectiveness of whether or not the handball was intentional, and the harsh nature in which a handball in the box is punished by a penalty. I think both issues can be easily dealt with. One, if the handball in the box is deemed to be intentional, it is a penalty. If it is not intentional, it is an indirect free kick where the ball struck the hand. 

 

3) The video review should be transparent. In the NFL, the angles the referees are looking at are visible on TV and within the stadium. After the review, the head referee comes out of the video booth and explains to the crowd/TV audience the decision. However, in the XFL, they have one-upped the NFL and put a microphone in the video booth so the viewer can hear what is being said. That way you can hear the head ref and the video referee discuss their opinions and arrive at a decision. It is a great step towards transparency that I hope is adopted elsewhere in professional sports.

 

If you know someone high up in FIFA, they can get in contact with me on payment for my services

 

 

 

[Stadt]

11 minutes ago, Detroit Blues said:

I am going to take some flak for this, but I will attempt to defend VAR.

 

I know a lot of people here watch other sports that have some form of VAR / Instant replay / etc. Every other professional sport has managed to successfully implement some version of VAR. 

 

The NFL has had some form of video replay review for over 30 years. Today, it is currently used on every scoring play, turnover (when the possession changes from one team to the other), and by request of the head coach via a challenge flag. The only issue we have with instant replay in American football, is when the rules being applied are subjective. For instance, a fumble (when a player loses the ball) is objective. When the review happens, we just have to check off the following boxes - Is the ball out? Is the player's knee down before the ball comes out? Is there a clear recovery?  Where the NFL gets into trouble, is when they try and use instant replay on something more subjective (like pass interference). 

 

This is the Detroit Blues plan to fix VAR.

 

1) Force the head referee to look at the video. It's not a choice. They cannot just take the 4th officials word for it. They cannot defer responsibility for the actions of VAR. It might take another minute of stoppage, but getting the call right is too important.

 

2) Clear up the FIFA rules to make offside and handball more objective. 

 

Offside - We have to draw the line somewhere. Pick a ruling and stick with it. It doesn't matter if the player is a milimeter or a yard offside, offside is offside. 

 

Handball - IMO, the whole issue  comes down to two issues. The subjectiveness of whether or not the handball was intentional, and the harsh nature in which a handball in the box is punished by a penalty. I think both issues can be easily dealt with. One, if the handball in the box is deemed to be intentional, it is a penalty. If it is not intentional, it is an indirect free kick where the ball struck the hand. 

 

3) The video review should be transparent. In the NFL, the angles the referees are looking at are visible on TV and within the stadium. After the review, the head referee comes out of the video booth and explains to the crowd/TV audience the decision. However, in the XFL, they have one-upped the NFL and put a microphone in the video booth so the viewer can hear what is being said. That way you can hear the head ref and the video referee discuss their opinions and arrive at a decision. It is a great step towards transparency that I hope is adopted elsewhere in professional sports.

 

If you know someone high up in FIFA, they can get in contact with me on payment for my services

 

 

 

American football is naturally much slower though and in my opinion the culture of match going fans isn’t the same 

[Xen]

I don't mind the concept of VAR, but the implementation is absolutely atrocious. I can accept mistakes when they're made as split-second decisions by an on-pitch referee - its frustrating but has always been part of the game - but when its some anonymous figure sat hundreds of miles away in Stockley park making arguably worse errors, then something has clearly gone wrong. Especially as the referee/linesmen at the stadium never check the monitors at the ground. It feels artificial.

 

Get rid of Stockley park completely, give 100% of power back to the referee on the pitch and let them be the one to review incidents/offsides if they didn't see them in real-time or need a second look. Forget about the silly line-drawing for offsides (which is somehow both arbitrary and overly clinical at the same time) and let it be judged by the human eye of the ref, with benefit of the doubt given to attackers in tight calls. Make the sport natural again with technology to assist, don't sanitise it like the PL has tried to do. It doesn't need to be perfect, but it does need to be better.

 

 

(Oh, and whilst we're at it, relegate every British ref to the championship and below until they can prove their worth and pay the ££ necessary to bring in some of the top refs from the continent who actually know what they're doing...)

Edited 25 February 2020 by Xen

[Detroit Blues]

18 minutes ago, Stadt said:

American football is naturally much slower though and in my opinion the culture of match going fans isn’t the same 

Hockey is similar and reviews work the same way. 

[Facecloth]

48 minutes ago, Detroit Blues said:

I am going to take some flak for this, but I will attempt to defend VAR.

 

I know a lot of people here watch other sports that have some form of VAR / Instant replay / etc. Every other professional sport has managed to successfully implement some version of VAR. 

 

The NFL has had some form of video replay review for over 30 years. Today, it is currently used on every scoring play, turnover (when the possession changes from one team to the other), and by request of the head coach via a challenge flag. The only issue we have with instant replay in American football, is when the rules being applied are subjective. For instance, a fumble (when a player loses the ball) is objective. When the review happens, we just have to check off the following boxes - Is the ball out? Is the player's knee down before the ball comes out? Is there a clear recovery?  Where the NFL gets into trouble, is when they try and use instant replay on something more subjective (like pass interference). 

 

This is the Detroit Blues plan to fix VAR.

 

1) Force the head referee to look at the video. It's not a choice. They cannot just take the 4th officials word for it. They cannot defer responsibility for the actions of VAR. It might take another minute of stoppage, but getting the call right is too important.

 

2) Clear up the FIFA rules to make offside and handball more objective. 

 

Offside - We have to draw the line somewhere. Pick a ruling and stick with it. It doesn't matter if the player is a milimeter or a yard offside, offside is offside. 

 

Handball - IMO, the whole issue  comes down to two issues. The subjectiveness of whether or not the handball was intentional, and the harsh nature in which a handball in the box is punished by a penalty. I think both issues can be easily dealt with. One, if the handball in the box is deemed to be intentional, it is a penalty. If it is not intentional, it is an indirect free kick where the ball struck the hand. 

 

3) The video review should be transparent. In the NFL, the angles the referees are looking at are visible on TV and within the stadium. After the review, the head referee comes out of the video booth and explains to the crowd/TV audience the decision. However, in the XFL, they have one-upped the NFL and put a microphone in the video booth so the viewer can hear what is being said. That way you can hear the head ref and the video referee discuss their opinions and arrive at a decision. It is a great step towards transparency that I hope is adopted elsewhere in professional sports.

 

If you know someone high up in FIFA, they can get in contact with me on payment for my services

 

 

 

With offside, I totally agree, if you off by a mm you're off. It's not that that is the issue, its the time taken over it, which why I think if they can't spot it without lines after 30 secs then stick with the onfield decision.

 

There seems to be discrepancies with the times taken too. The Wolves disallowed goal against Leicester seemed to take ages to review and was very tight, whilst the Jesus and Martial goals at the weekend were also tight and took no time at all. It seem to me, watching the Wolves games that they were looking for a reason to disallow it.

[oxford blue]

4 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

As stated loads of times. The tech is not the issue. People is the issue.

 

Also as stated previously, the tech can be an issue in marginal offside decisions as the pictures are not fast enough to reflect speed of players, therefore there needs to be a margin of error.

 

And yes, the VAR decisions are not improving; a reasonable argument they are getting worse judging by last Saturday

[Sammy]

1 hour ago, leicesterseddon said:

I've always been against using VAR in any form. I'm prepared to live with the idea that bad on-field decisions will stand in return for a fast-paced game.

 

To be honest, I suspect that's what the vast majority of matchgoing fans think (and have always thought).

 

The Premier League only introduced it because of pressure from television/pundits, I can't recall that many fans lobbying for it.

 

Problem is the authorities will look at the opposition and say 'this shows we need to reform VAR' - they will never consider scrapping it.

This is the problem. No calls for this yet after years of action on safe standing we're only just now (maybe) seeing a breakthrough. 

 

PL Officials couldn't care less about match going fans and until those fans turn their backs on the sport and TV companies get worried about the entertainment it won't matter what we think/want. 

[Dahnsouff]

9 minutes ago, oxford blue said:

Also as stated previously, the tech can be an issue in marginal offside decisions as the pictures are not fast enough to reflect speed of players, therefore there needs to be a margin of error.

 

And yes, the VAR decisions are not improving; a reasonable argument they are getting worse judging by last Saturday

Fair enough, just suspect it will take time to iron out the substantial "kinks"

[bmt]

I kind of feel a mix between all the last 3. Bin it. 

[Always Next Year]

Scrap Stockley Park and sack the fools that work there, and make the match day ref use the pitch side monitor to review the incident.

One man one decision 

[squarez]

3 hours ago, StanSP said:

No they won't. 

it's literally how maths works mate

[Detroit Blues]

1 hour ago, Facecloth said:

With offside, I totally agree, if you off by a mm you're off. It's not that that is the issue, its the time taken over it, which why I think if they can't spot it without lines after 30 secs then stick with the onfield decision.

 

There seems to be discrepancies with the times taken too. The Wolves disallowed goal against Leicester seemed to take ages to review and was very tight, whilst the Jesus and Martial goals at the weekend were also tight and took no time at all. It seem to me, watching the Wolves games that they were looking for a reason to disallow it.

You would think they could automate the decision making. It shouldn't take more than a few seconds for a computer to dig through the frames to determine the exact time the ball was contacted, draw a parallel line on the last defender / farthest attacker, and see which player is closest to the goal when the ball is struck.