Also in the news

[Carl the Llama]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53013189

 

Interesting analysis.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53012783

 

Imagine the moral hypocrisy of calling out someplace like China for brutalising their own citizens and then turning around and saying your own soldiers are untouchable no matter how dirty their hands might get.

If they've done nothing wrong they've got nothing to fear.

[Captain...]

8 hours ago, tom27111 said:

Because he hasn't made it about race.

He hasn't, but you have.

 

This is kinda the point about race, everything MR or any other BAME sports person does is framed by their race. He has done some great charitable work but it is still commented on in terms of his race.

 

Why bring BLM up when talking about it? You wouldn't have said it if Phil Foden had done it or James Maddison.

 

Before you get all defensive I'm not calling you a racist or anything the media do it all the time. I'm just pointing out how hard it is for a BAME person to be seen as a person and not a person of colour.

 

Edited 12 June 2020 by Captain...

[Strokes]

32 minutes ago, Captain... said:

He hasn't, but you have.

 

This is kinda the point about race, everything MR or any other BAME sports person does is framed by their race. He has done some great charitable work but it is still commented on in terms of his race.

 

Why bring BLM up when talking about it? You wouldn't have said it if Phil Foden had done it or James Maddison.

 

Before you get all defensive I'm not calling you a racist or anything the media do it all the time. I'm just pointing out how hard it is for a BAME person to be seen as a person and not a person of colour.

 

Because like he said the BLM movement is divisive and hasn’t helped race relations, it’s stirred the far right into action and empowering racists on both sides. We need our governments, councils and role models to remove race altogether to be truly equal and discuss things collectively. This might have ‘educated’ a few people on slavery but it has no doubt also pushed a few over the other side.

I’m seeing a lot of anger towards this movement among people, either that were not vocally racist prior or just weren’t that are very annoyed and prepared to take action. The things they are openly saying are very alarming. If you think brexit caused racial unrest then I think this is at least on a par.

Lets work together, stop apologising for things we had no control over, that effected nobody alive today and focus on making this country a great place for everyone.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Because like he said the BLM movement is divisive and hasn’t helped race relations, it’s stirred the far right into action and empowering racists on both sides. We need our governments, councils and role models to remove race altogether to be truly equal and discuss things collectively. This might have ‘educated’ a few people on slavery but it has no doubt also pushed a few over the other side.

I’m seeing a lot of anger towards this movement among people, either that were not vocally racist prior or just weren’t that are very annoyed and prepared to take action. The things they are openly saying are very alarming. If you think brexit caused racial unrest then I think this is at least on a par.

Lets work together, stop apologising for things we had no control over, that effected nobody alive today and focus on making this country a great place for everyone.

IMO there's quite a difference in terms of results and necessity between the BLM movements in the UK and the US and I think that perhaps should be used as a qualifier here.

 

The past certainly effects race relations over there today.

 

Edited 12 June 2020 by leicsmac

[leicsmac]

55 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

If they've done nothing wrong they've got nothing to fear.

Absolutely.

 

(Which says a lot about their behaviour here.)

[Strokes]

Just now, leicsmac said:

IMO there's quite a difference in terms of results and necessity between the BLM movements in the UK and the US and I think that perhaps should be used as a qualifier here.

 

The past certainly effects race relations over there.

 

Yeah we’ve discussed this before Mac and yes you’re absolutely right, it should have been in there.

Thanks.

[Captain...]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Because like he said the BLM movement is divisive and hasn’t helped race relations, it’s stirred the far right into action and empowering racists on both sides. We need our governments, councils and role models to remove race altogether to be truly equal and discuss things collectively. This might have ‘educated’ a few people on slavery but it has no doubt also pushed a few over the other side.

I’m seeing a lot of anger towards this movement among people, either that were not vocally racist prior or just weren’t that are very annoyed and prepared to take action. The things they are openly saying are very alarming. If you think brexit caused racial unrest then I think this is at least on a par.

Lets work together, stop apologising for things we had no control over, that effected nobody alive today and focus on making this country a great place for everyone.

It's a difficult question and one I can't answer. Is it better to have a huge movement supporting black lives flushing out a handful of racists in the process or a quiet status quo where we don't really address race issues and racists quietly walk among us knowing as long as they don't use the N word they won't have their views challenged.

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, Captain... said:

It's a difficult question and one I can't answer. Is it better to have a huge movement supporting black lives flushing out a handful of racists in the process or a quiet status quo where we don't really address race issues and racists quietly walk among us knowing as long as they don't use the N word they won't have their views challenged.

It is not and should never be regarded as a binary choice. Generational racists need time to move on, new enlightenment needs time to embed itself. The paths you suggest feel quite possible to co-exist against a backdrop of racism being removed culled naturally over time. 

Not trying to distract, but misogyny is a comparable problem (bigger?) and this has moved on slowly, but is still far from resolved, but it is time (and education) that solves most prejudice,

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah we’ve discussed this before Mac and yes you’re absolutely right, it should have been in there.

Thanks.

Sorry, I know I can be a pedantic **** at times. However I really do think the movement Stateside is not only justified but is actually a matter of ethical necessity.

Edited 12 June 2020 by leicsmac

[Captain...]

4 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

It is not and should never be regarded as a binary choice. Generational racists need time to move on, new enlightenment needs time to embed itself. The paths you suggest feel quite possible to co-exist against a backdrop of racism being removed culled naturally over time. 

Not trying to distract, but misogyny is a comparable problem (bigger?) and this has moved on slowly, but is still far from resolved, but it is time (and education) that solves most prejudice,

Like I said, I don't know the answer. You're right time is a great healer in many respects, but whether it is rights of women, lgbtq, BAME it never just heals there are always events and flashpoints that move things forward and sometimes there are unintended and undesirable consequences of these flashpoints. 

 

I do see this as a big step forwards globally on tackling racial inequality and I think it is important that it keeps moving we keep having these discussions and we make sure it is clear those opposing are a noisy vocal minority and only represent a tiny proportion of the population.

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Sorry, I know I can be a pedantic **** at times. However I really do think the movement Stateside is not only justified but is actually a matter of ethical necessity.

Yeah I agree 100% and I’m pleased you added it before anything snowballed on misunderstanding. I was strictly talking about here and how far we have come, and I think it’s pushing us backwards.
 

 

14 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Sorry, I know I can be a pedantic **** at times. However I really do think the movement Stateside is not only justified but is actually a matter of ethical necessity.

I’m worried people who I thought were sane rational people and are very angry about the attack on Churchill monument, the cenotaph, narked at being patronised by celebs apologising on their behalf, angry at videos of Anthony Joshua being racist towards whites. And talking openly at what they should do about it. The wall is up, it’s us and them, which side are you on attitude. You’re either with us or against us.

A lot of non racist folk, following their peers will be caught up in this, it’s stirred up emotion and it’s easy to manipulate that, the damage could last for generations again. Sad.

[Strokes]

32 minutes ago, Captain... said:

It's a difficult question and one I can't answer. Is it better to have a huge movement supporting black lives flushing out a handful of racists in the process or a quiet status quo where we don't really address race issues and racists quietly walk among us knowing as long as they don't use the N word they won't have their views challenged.

It was supposed to quote you for the second part above.

[Pliskin]

19 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Like I said, I don't know the answer. You're right time is a great healer in many respects, but whether it is rights of women, lgbtq, BAME it never just heals there are always events and flashpoints that move things forward and sometimes there are unintended and undesirable consequences of these flashpoints. 

 

I do see this as a big step forwards globally on tackling racial inequality and I think it is important that it keeps moving we keep having these discussions and we make sure it is clear those opposing are a noisy vocal minority and only represent a tiny proportion of the population.

Captain and @Dahnsouff Are on fire! So many great points raised over the last two days. 

 

And I am in total agreement. The movement needs to continue, and if we manage to re-educate those members of society whom still have views that belong in the 1800's then that would be a success of the movement. The violence and thuggery often comes with most movements, as there will always be a minority whom feel it is the right way. Like I said, Boris has himself been branded a racist, and so far, he has done little to deflect that claim and explain what he intends to do. I know with the corona virus he has his plate full, but this is his role, so he needs to address the issues properly, and not in his usual flippant way. 

[StanSP]

14 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I’m worried people who I thought were sane rational people and are very angry about the attack on Churchill monument, the cenotaph, narked at being patronised by celebs apologising on their behalf, angry at videos of Anthony Joshua being racist towards whites. And talking openly at what they should do about it. The wall is up, it’s us and them, which side are you on attitude. You’re either with us or against us.

A lot of non racist folk, following their peers will be caught up in this, it’s stirred up emotion and it’s easy to manipulate that, the damage could last for generations again. Sad.

Me too. 

 

Society is so polarised these days. You either have to be one or the other and the middle ground is becoming blurrier than ever. 

 

The whole BLM movement you can support. You can also support the notion of all lives matter. You can also support the removal of some statues but not all. But, for example with the latter point, if you even mention support for removal/keeping just one, you're tarred with the brush that you think all must be removed/kept. 

 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

Are we expecting trouble again this weekend? Lots of talk about various groups heading into London under the premise of defending war memorials etc, talk of Antifa calling out Millwall (but nothing substantiated ), the Cenotaph and Churchills statue being boarded up the last couple of days. 

 

Busy weekend for the Met I think!

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Because like he said the BLM movement is divisive and hasn’t helped race relations, it’s stirred the far right into action and empowering racists on both sides. We need our governments, councils and role models to remove race altogether to be truly equal and discuss things collectively. This might have ‘educated’ a few people on slavery but it has no doubt also pushed a few over the other side.

I’m seeing a lot of anger towards this movement among people, either that were not vocally racist prior or just weren’t that are very annoyed and prepared to take action. The things they are openly saying are very alarming. If you think brexit caused racial unrest then I think this is at least on a par.

Lets work together, stop apologising for things we had no control over, that effected nobody alive today and focus on making this country a great place for everyone.

Still, I am not seeing the correlation of Rashford's actions impacting on the racism debate. A unifying act yes -  assisting with the institutional racism faced by people? No. 

 

I firmly believe that racism and sexism will be eradicated as generations progress. Leicester as a city is in someways another generation further than most cities in that regard. However, I can equally see that such slow progress would frankly annoy people beyond belief. 

 

Statue thing has been taken away out of context - it was a local Bristolian issue what has been exploited to avoid the core issue. 

 

We have to remember the extremes are loudest but there will be conversations and debates which are far more quiet, far more polite in British communities or homes. I won't lie my Dad uses awful language in reference to race (I've had to tell him to zip it at Leicester games) but this week alone I've noticed how he agrees with the core complaint. 'It wasn't the right time but it was the right thing'. 

 

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Are we expecting trouble again this weekend? Lots of talk about various groups heading into London under the premise of defending war memorials etc, talk of Antifa calling out Millwall (but nothing substantiated ), the Cenotaph and Churchills statue being boarded up the last couple of days. 

 

Busy weekend for the Met I think!

BLM have sensibly cancelled their protest this weekend. 

 

2 hours ago, Pliskin said:

Like I said, Boris has himself been branded a racist, and so far, he has done little to deflect that claim and explain what he intends to do.

He absolutely is. You don't utter the language or publish the words he has without being fully aware of how that will make people feel. 

 

I read a point about Britain's racism problem isn't a question of whether Britain is racist. It's a question of how Britain reacts when it's called racist. 

Edited 12 June 2020 by Cardiff_Fox

[Sol thewall Bamba]

9 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

BLM have sensibly cancelled their protest this weekend. 

Ah I see, I didn't know that.

[Strokes]

23 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Still, I am not seeing the correlation of Rashford's actions impacting on the racism debate. A unifying act yes -  assisting with the institutional racism faced by people? No. 

 

 

 

But that’s just it isn’t it? A unifying act right now. Making people feel equal, together. Solves far more than the divisive actions (of a minority within) the BLM movement. 

[Blue-fox]

I think people in this day and age just enjoy being offended, they find the smallest things and blow them up out of proportion. I personally don’t think there is much wrong with modern Britain and things like this that’s happening actually make things worse than better. 

[David Guiza]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

But that’s just it isn’t it? A unifying act right now. Making people feel equal, together. Solves far more than the divisive actions (of a minority within) the BLM movement. 

I made a similar point to @Cardiff_Fox in the Premier League thread as I didn't know the article had been shared in here too.

 

I think we all agree that a unifying act at a tempestuous and volatile time is always welcome, but I agree with CF that it bears no relevance to BLM whatsoever. I know, or at least hope, it wasn't the intention of the original poster, but it seems to suggest that black and minority groups should be doing positive acts to curry favour with those who don't agree with their argument for equality and that is of course bonkers. 

 

Were this Juan Mata, who also seems to do wonderful work behind the scenes, the BLM wouldn't have been mentioned at all and rightly so. Tyrone Mings and co joining a peaceful protest should be far more meaningful and positive in respect of the BLM movement than Marcus Rashford's good deed. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

Harry Potter next up

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

I made a similar point to @Cardiff_Fox in the Premier League thread as I didn't know the article had been shared in here too.

 

I think we all agree that a unifying act at a tempestuous and volatile time is always welcome, but I agree with CF that it bears no relevance to BLM whatsoever. I know, or at least hope, it wasn't the intention of the original poster, but it seems to suggest that black and minority groups should be doing positive acts to curry favour with those who don't agree with their argument for equality and that is of course bonkers. 

 

Were this Juan Mata, who also seems to do wonderful work behind the scenes, the BLM wouldn't have been mentioned at all and rightly so. Tyrone Mings and co joining a peaceful protest should be far more meaningful and positive in respect of the BLM movement than Marcus Rashford's good deed. 

I just think if you want people to feel equal, we should just treat them as so. No currying favour, just fair acts across the board.

There is inequality and prejudice everywhere you look, wealth, sex, religion, race, weight, hair colour ( @Izzy ) education. If we all divide into our own little groups and start smashing shit up to get our own way on shit, there won’t be much left for anyone. 
Unifying people is the only way we build an inclusive world. And we need to start having a ****ing sense of humour again. I never had a slave, I’ve never wanted to enslave anyone. I sure as hell ain’t apologising for the fact someone that shares the same colour skin as me did centuries ago. 
Punishing one race as an apology to another is counter productive and as long as divisions are here, racism will continue to thrive.

[David Guiza]

3 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Harry Potter next up

Fantastic humble brag in her follow up tweet

 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I just think if you want people to feel equal, we should just treat them as so. No currying favour, just fair acts across the board.

There is inequality and prejudice everywhere you look, wealth, sex, religion, race, weight, hair colour ( @Izzy ) education. If we all divide into our own little groups and start smashing shit up to get our own way on shit, there won’t be much left for anyone. 
Unifying people is the only way we build an inclusive world. And we need to start having a ****ing sense of humour again. I never had a slave, I’ve never wanted to enslave anyone. I sure as hell ain’t apologising for the fact someone that shares the same colour skin as me did centuries ago. 
Punishing one race as an apology to another is counter productive and as long as divisions are here, racism will continue to thrive.

Treating people as equals is of course the ideal, but this sounds an awful lot like all prejudices are equal...which given the institutional disparity in power between demographic groups in some places simply isn't true. Some prejudices are more damaging than others, and need to be treated as such. It is a difficult thing to address, though.

 

Sorry for coming after you again here, mate.