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By Countryfox, in General Chat

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David Guiza

David Guiza

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Strokes said:

I just think if you want people to feel equal, we should just treat them as so. No currying favour, just fair acts across the board.

There is inequality and prejudice everywhere you look, wealth, sex, religion, race, weight, hair colour ( @Izzy :ph34r:) education. If we all divide into our own little groups and start smashing shit up to get our own way on shit, there won’t be much left for anyone. 
Unifying people is the only way we build an inclusive world. And we need to start having a ****ing sense of humour again. I never had a slave, I’ve never wanted to enslave anyone. I sure as hell ain’t apologising for the fact someone that shares the same colour skin as me did centuries ago. 
Punishing one race as an apology to another is counter productive and as long as divisions are here, racism will continue to thrive.

I completely agree with everything you say, I just didn't think the article had anything at all to do with the BLM movement and bringing up make no sense. To me, and presumably CF too, it just came across as 'if only black people could do this, rather than protesting then maybe more people would be on side' which is bollocks. When the Japanese fans tidied all the grounds they'd been watching football at during the World Cup everybody enjoyed that story, and probably reacted favorably to Japan as a nation as a result, because they were doing it simply as it's a noble and kind thing to do, but if they were doing so to raise awareness of Japan's awful death row record or some other issue that they may feel strongly about then nobody would have given two s**ts. 

 

Sometimes uncomfortable things need to happen to create a better world and not everything can be kindness and virtue, unfortunately. A worldwide litterpick in aid of BLM would be a lovely good news story, it would bring about a great sense of togetherness and make us feel all warm and fuzzy, and would perhaps get a large number of people on side, but it's hardly going to make Trump, Johnson, Morrison lose any sleep. 

 

As for the bit on bold, you totally have :ph34r:

Edited by David Guiza
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Finnaldo

Finnaldo

Posted
Posted

To be fair, JK Rowling has pandered to that particular crowd for years. Hermoine was black, Dumbledore was actually gay the whole time etc., she’s been tweeting these kinds of thing for years. Now I’m sure most will know I’m not exactly a fully-fledged Anti-SJW, but if we’re all being honest I’m pretty confident Hermoine wasn’t actually black the whole time and Dumbledore wasn’t actually gay when she wrote it. Milennials/Gen Z are the biggest consumers of her media and they’re overwhelming progressive, especially when I’d hazard a guess there’s a larger female demographic in her fan base than male.
 

These revisionisms have always seemed a bit weird in my opinion and I’ve always been suspicious as to how ‘progressive’ she is and how much of it is playing to the demographic most likely to read the books, watch the films and buy the merchandise. As it happens, it was all virtue signalling and she has a harder views on trans folk than some people who would describe themselves as moderates or centrists rather than bleeding heart progressives as JKR posed herself as.

 

She played to the crowd and got bit. Clearly it’s about the appearance that would get her more favour and as a result more revenue. If anyone deserves it, it’s the demonstrative ‘Hollywood progressives’ types like her. Make me embarrassed to be a left-winger.

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Izzy

Izzy

Posted
Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I just think if you want people to feel equal, we should just treat them as so. No currying favour, just fair acts across the board.

There is inequality and prejudice everywhere you look, wealth, sex, religion, race, weight, hair colour ( @Izzy :ph34r:) education. If we all divide into our own little groups and start smashing shit up to get our own way on shit, there won’t be much left for anyone. 
Unifying people is the only way we build an inclusive world. And we need to start having a ****ing sense of humour again. I never had a slave, I’ve never wanted to enslave anyone. I sure as hell ain’t apologising for the fact someone that shares the same colour skin as me did centuries ago. 
Punishing one race as an apology to another is counter productive and as long as divisions are here, racism will continue to thrive.

 

29 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Treating people as equals is of course the ideal, but this sounds an awful lot like all prejudices are equal...which given the institutional disparity in power between demographic groups in some places simply isn't true. Some prejudices are more damaging than others, and need to be treated as such. It is a difficult thing to address, though.

 

Sorry for coming after you again here, mate.

I was bullied to fvck as a kid for having ginger hair - proper nasty stuff at times. I've also been guilty of prejudice to others during my life for which I'm not proud. None of us are perfect and we're all flawed. As long as we all learn and try to be better people, that's the main thing.

 

Back in '02 before we had kids and when I had money, the wife and I had a holiday in LA. We went to a late night comedy club and there was a comedian who came on and took the piss out of EVERYONE from ALL groups. Black, white, Chinese, Polish, Jews, and even the disabled - everyone was fair game. I got up for a piss half way through his act and when he found out I was English he went for me big time.

 

Funniest thing I've ever seen in my life. No one was spared and everyone was targeted. It was probably the one single thing I remember in life that made me realise we've all got something people could use against us to make us feel different and therefore in a strange way, that makes us all equal.

 

 

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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
34 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

To be fair, JK Rowling has pandered to that particular crowd for years. Hermoine was black, Dumbledore was actually gay the whole time etc., she’s been tweeting these kinds of thing for years. Now I’m sure most will know I’m not exactly a fully-fledged Anti-SJW, but if we’re all being honest I’m pretty confident Hermoine wasn’t actually black the whole time and Dumbledore wasn’t actually gay when she wrote it. Milennials/Gen Z are the biggest consumers of her media and they’re overwhelming progressive, especially when I’d hazard a guess there’s a larger female demographic in her fan base than male.
 

These revisionisms have always seemed a bit weird in my opinion and I’ve always been suspicious as to how ‘progressive’ she is and how much of it is playing to the demographic most likely to read the books, watch the films and buy the merchandise. As it happens, it was all virtue signalling and she has a harder views on trans folk than some people who would describe themselves as moderates or centrists rather than bleeding heart progressives as JKR posed herself as.

 

She played to the crowd and got bit. Clearly it’s about the appearance that would get her more favour and as a result more revenue. If anyone deserves it, it’s the demonstrative ‘Hollywood progressives’ types like her. Make me embarrassed to be a left-winger.

Surely you cannot think that anything you mention their justifies the abuse she has recieved?  Death threats, rape threats, being called a ****, constant abuse where she is trying to share stories with kids, the SUN front page today ffs.  No one deserves it.  Whether you agree with her views or not (I suspect the majority do) she has a right to express them, and has done so pretty clearly I think.  She has a right to do that without the abuse she is getting.  It will be counter productive.

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Finnaldo

Finnaldo

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Surely you cannot think that anything you mention their justifies the abuse she has recieved?  Death threats, rape threats, being called a ****, constant abuse where she is trying to share stories with kids, the SUN front page today ffs.  No one deserves it.  Whether you agree with her views or not (I suspect the majority do) she has a right to express them, and has done so pretty clearly I think.  She has a right to do that without the abuse she is getting.  It will be counter productive.


Nah I don’t agree with threats or the Sun headline. I meant more in terms of ‘cancelling’, as she’s pushed that agenda for a long time in, at least I believe, bad faith. 
 

I’ve seen nothing other than being called out for being transphobic, to that extent she’s dug that grave for herself.  

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Finnegan

Finnegan

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Surely you cannot think that anything you mention their justifies the abuse she has recieved?  Death threats, rape threats, being called a ****, constant abuse where she is trying to share stories with kids, the SUN front page today ffs.  No one deserves it.  Whether you agree with her views or not (I suspect the majority do) she has a right to express them, and has done so pretty clearly I think.  She has a right to do that without the abuse she is getting.  It will be counter productive.

 

That's life as a public figure, it's got nothing to do with her views really or the people that oppose them. In fact, let me reword that, it's life in the eye of the internet, you don't even need to be famous. 

 

You can go on to a social media platform like Reddit and post an opinion - as a non famous person - that's in any way controversial or stands out and if it gets enough views and traction, you'll inevitably get a wave of abuse both in public comments and sent to you in your DMs. People wishing you dead, calling you a cuck and a beta if they think you're a guy, making rape threats and calling you a whore if they think you're a woman. 

 

I mean, if you're a woman it doesn't even need to be an opinion you post. There'll be like, a picture of a girl holding up some artwork she's done or juggling or dancing or something (all actually recent actives I've seen be targeted) and you'll find a portion of the comments are needlessly disgusting attacks for no reason. 

 

I'm not condoning any of this, it's all vile, but at the same time the idea that Rowling is any kind of poor martyr because she's the latest target is somewhat false. She's had it before when she's hinted her characters might be gay and homophobic bigots swarmed all over her social media.

 

She knows s what the internet is and she courts it from a position of experience. No, she shouldn't have to be subjected to abuse but when you have a mostly anonymous platform, outside the realm of most laws, and you let people say whatever they want then plenty will say things just to deliberately be hurtful. 

 

Rowling wades in to that with full awareness of the consequences. 

 

Again, not condoning that behaviour but acting surprised by it or even acting like it's anything more than a fringe group of weirdos lashing out is a bit naive in the extreme. 

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Dahnsouff

Dahnsouff

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

That's life as a public figure, it's got nothing to do with her views really or the people that oppose them. In fact, let me reword that, it's life in the eye of the internet, you don't even need to be famous. 

This is true.

Being true don't make it right.

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Finnegan

Finnegan

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

This is true.

Being true don't make it right.

 

Yeah of course, I just feel it gets given too much power though. I don't know that you can ever really stop it, especially while everyone gets obsessed with it. 

 

I know it sounds absurd to think we should be desensitised to online death and rape threats but to an extent we probably should. 

 

At the risk of upsetting Jon here by being possibly unduly cynical (FWIW I've always thought he was the most likeable Tory on here), I'm pretty confident he's only bringing it up because it helps to reinforce the narrative that Rowling's (who he's already indicated he thinks was in the right) critics on this stance are nasty bad people picking on the lovely author who has some good points. 

 

Where as actually, a woman who may have some great points about a very complex issue (as Graham Linehan did before her) got called out for also having some pretty ugly views (as Graham Linehan did before her) and the vast, vast majority of the people disagreeing with her (who aren't a crackpot minority) have been justifiably annoyed and expressing themselves without being violently uncivil. 

 

Including the stars that helped make her fortune. 

 

That there's some fringe weirdos frothing at the mouth over it on the internet means nothing when those fringe weirdos also get violently, sexually abusive just because a black woman decides to cosplay as a white anime character or because a girl on tinder asks someone their height or a teenage girl shares a picture she did of Justin Beiber. 

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Captain...

Captain...

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Surely you cannot think that anything you mention their justifies the abuse she has recieved?  Death threats, rape threats, being called a ****, constant abuse where she is trying to share stories with kids, the SUN front page today ffs.  No one deserves it.  Whether you agree with her views or not (I suspect the majority do) she has a right to express them, and has done so pretty clearly I think.  She has a right to do that without the abuse she is getting.  It will be counter productive.

Nothing justifies the abuse she or anyone receives on Twitter. It is a horrible place where words by and large have zero consequence and it is a race to the bottom when disagreeing with someone. Who can say the most offensive comment. Most of it is just keyboard warrior bullshit. I have no idea why anyone in the public eye would have a public Twitter account. The sooner Twitter starts losing a few blue ticks the sooner they will improve regulating their platform.

 

That aside it doesn't mean people shouldn't be called out when they post something making a joke at the expense of a minority. It should be done without using violent misogynistic language.

 

 

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Strokes

Strokes

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Treating people as equals is of course the ideal, but this sounds an awful lot like all prejudices are equal...which given the institutional disparity in power between demographic groups in some places simply isn't true. Some prejudices are more damaging than others, and need to be treated as such. It is a difficult thing to address, though.

 

Sorry for coming after you again here, mate.

Actions of prejudice yes but not the prejudice itself.

 

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theessexfox

theessexfox

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Strokes said:

I just think if you want people to feel equal, we should just treat them as so. No currying favour, just fair acts across the board.

There is inequality and prejudice everywhere you look, wealth, sex, religion, race, weight, hair colour ( @Izzy :ph34r:) education. If we all divide into our own little groups and start smashing shit up to get our own way on shit, there won’t be much left for anyone. 
Unifying people is the only way we build an inclusive world. And we need to start having a ****ing sense of humour again. I never had a slave, I’ve never wanted to enslave anyone. I sure as hell ain’t apologising for the fact someone that shares the same colour skin as me did centuries ago. 
Punishing one race as an apology to another is counter productive and as long as divisions are here, racism will continue to thrive.

As far as race goes, I don’t think anyone is asking white people to apologise for the sins of their forefathers - the main demand is a recognition of the effect that that history still has on our society today in terms of disproportionately improving the life chances of some groups whilst reducing the life chances of others. And no, it’s not the only form of discrimination or prejudice, but it’s a pretty pervasive one that can be seen in educational outcomes, healthcare, the criminal justice system, employment, etc. The history is important because it’s fundamentally shaped the society we live in today. 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
59 minutes ago, Izzy said:

 

I was bullied to fvck as a kid for having ginger hair - proper nasty stuff at times. I've also been guilty of prejudice to others during my life for which I'm not proud. None of us are perfect and we're all flawed. As long as we all learn and try to be better people, that's the main thing.

 

Back in '02 before we had kids and when I had money, the wife and I had a holiday in LA. We went to a late night comedy club and there was a comedian who came on and took the piss out of EVERYONE from ALL groups. Black, white, Chinese, Polish, Jews, and even the disabled - everyone was fair game. I got up for a piss half way through his act and when he found out I was English he went for me big time.

 

Funniest thing I've ever seen in my life. No one was spared and everyone was targeted. It was probably the one single thing I remember in life that made me realise we've all got something people could use against us to make us feel different and therefore in a strange way, that makes us all equal.

 

 

That's totally fair enough Izzy.

 

I am, however, referring to the kind of institutionalised prejudice that is still a problem in many places. That's the real issue here IMO.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Actions of prejudice yes but not the prejudice itself.

 

Absolutely.

 

However I believe the actions to be rather important as they shape society even now.

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ozleicester

ozleicester

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

BLM have sensibly cancelled their protest this weekend. 

 

He absolutely is. You don't utter the language or publish the words he has without being fully aware of how that will make people feel. 

 

I read a point about Britain's racism problem isn't a question of whether Britain is racist. It's a question of how Britain reacts when it's called racist. 

Reading this currently... explains a LOT...

White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo - Penguin Books Australia

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StanSP

StanSP

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Good illustrative point is Priti Patel saying the UK is not racist but later states she’s suffered racism throughout her life 

Her comments towards the Labour MPs letter were hilarious and not in the funny way, more embarrassing that she totally didn't get the point they were trying to make. :frusty:

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