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Countryfox

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By Countryfox, in General Chat

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David Guiza

David Guiza

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Pliskin said:

In Germany the phrase “Arbeit Macht Frei”, is an extremely offensive phrase, and some have been arrested for publicly using it and glorifying it. However, this will probably never be removed because it is extremely important to understand what it stands for. 
 

Being half German, I have a bit of an understanding of the culture over there particularly about the war. My German family members won’t talk about the war, openly, the reason being they don’t want to allow the Nazi history to reign, they would rather forget what happened. I argue that this isn’t right, I often say, debating it isn’t glorifying it, but it is vitally important than my nieces and nephews all understand what the war was, and why it happened. It is probably the biggest threat to humanity collectively in what I would consider the modern time’s. 
 

After having frank discussions with the kids in the family they know of the atrocities committed against humanity during these modern day conflicts, and they recognise why it is vitally important we remember them. My niece has even said herself “this is why we must be nice to everyone” (she is only 6) and she’s right, this is why we need to treat everyone with respect and absolutely not discriminate against anyone because of who they are and what they represent.

 

It is also why it is important to careful decide what symbols of British history we want to remove, and what symbols we need to keep.

Always reminds me of the Libertines song, which is quite apt for some of the 'all lives matter' mob.

 

'Her old man
He don't like blacks or queers
Yet he's proud we beat the Nazis?
How queer'

 

A little 'in yer face' lyrically, but gets the point across lol

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Leicester_Loyal

Leicester_Loyal

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Captain... said:

Nobody is saying we should forget slavery, just not glorify slavers and people who have profitted from slavery.

 

It is an important yet shameful part of our history and the history of the world, but there is no place in modern Britain for statues glorifying slavers.

I think most people will agree with the statue coming down, just not in the circumstances that it came down.

 

But we've moved onto other statues now, like Sir Robert Peel etc. I think that's what people are starting to discuss now.

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Pliskin

Pliskin

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Swan Lesta said:

If people haven’t listened/watched this - do it. And listen to the whole thing, take the time. It’s about 10 minutes. 
 

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/remarkable-caller-racism-new-light/

 

 

Listened to it. Leaves a lump in your throat. Imagine if a white parent come on a show and said all of those things, it would be all over Facebook, all over social media..... another example of how real systematic institutionalised racism is very, very real. And again, when I said just prior to the initial movement, the slogan “black lives matter” is really lost on some people. It is both literal and metaphorical.... black lives matter, and the white community really need to listen. 

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Torquay Gunner

Torquay Gunner

Posted
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People in Bristol had been advocating for the Colston statue to be removed for years and ideally it would have been removed by the authorities.  It now belongs in a museum as part of a slavery exhibition.  There are many other statues to 'dubious individuals' that deserve the same fate, hence the debate on it.

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foxile5

foxile5

Posted
Posted

Wait until the protesters find out German people actually have nazi RELATIVES. 

 

They're gonna need a bigger lake to chuck them all in. 

 

Seriously, though, the UK riots have just become a copy cat set of nonesense. Americans are impacting real change and we're just filming anarchy. 

 

If Gladstone can't be memorialised because he parents owned slaves then fair enough but we're applying that level of revisionism everywhere then. Instantly we need to talk about Germans don't we? And Italians? Because the parents of living people actually fought and served the nazi regime. 

 

But it would be dumb and pointless to do that because it isn't their fault and it's wildly missing the point of BLM. 

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Captain...

Captain...

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/topple-kitchener-statue-campaigners-demand-228526/

 

Interestingly there's a poll on this article, currently at 92% to keep the statue.

My personal view is that people like Nelson, Churchill, Drake whilst problematic are being celebrated for what they achieved in military terms. Their achievements that we celebrate with statues are not linked to racism and slavery. I would probably put Kitchener in that bracket, but don't really know enough about the issue, but I'm happy it is being addressed. If the majority disagree then I'm not going to get upset.

 

 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

Pulling things away from the statue debate and back to why the marches began in the first place:

 

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

 

unknown.png

 

The system is rotten from within, and while there a.) isn't much people in the UK can do about it and b.) the issue is being conflated either accidentally or deliberately with larger discussions on race, let's not lose sight of the initial ideas here.

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BKLFox

BKLFox

Posted
Posted
37 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Pulling things away from the statue debate and back to why the marches began in the first place:

 

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

 

unknown.png

 

The system is rotten from within, and while there a.) isn't much people in the UK can do about it and b.) the issue is being conflated either accidentally or deliberately with larger discussions on race, let's not lose sight of the initial ideas here.

Meanwhile back in the UK & the marches now seeming to taint all Police officers the same, this happens

 

https://news.sky.com/story/disgusting-violent-attack-two-police-officers-injured-in-hackney-assault-12004526

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worth_the_wait

worth_the_wait

Posted
Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Captain... said:

My personal view is that people like Nelson, Churchill, Drake whilst problematic are being celebrated for what they achieved in military terms. Their achievements that we celebrate with statues are not linked to racism and slavery. I would probably put Kitchener in that bracket, but don't really know enough about the issue, but I'm happy it is being addressed. If the majority disagree then I'm not going to get upset.

 

 

Fair point.

 

 

I've never really understood this obsession with statues.   Most of them just seem to be things that pigeons sit on and poo all over.

 

From what I can tell, they normally seem to be put up when someone has done something good or memorable.   The key point being "something good".   That doesn't condone anything else they did that might not have been so good.

 

Statues of Churchill are put up for the good he did in WW2, not the mess he made of the Dardanelles campaign in WW1.

 

I'd have been quite happy if they'd put up a statue of Paul Gasgoigne, after that goal he scored v Scotland in the Euros 1996.   But would there have been calls for it to be taken down, after some of his later misdemeanors with the opposite sex?

 

Keith Weller was one of the finest players to have played for the City, and I would gladly have built a statue to him.  White tights and all.  But after his death in 2004, he was accused of things which would blacken anyone's character.  I believe the allegations were unproven, but what if they had been believed?  Statue coming down?

 

And closer to home ... when we build that statue to Vichai.   What if in 40 years time, it was shown that he had business dealings with some unsavioury characters who exploited children/slave labour in the Far East?   I'm obviously being hypothetical here, but you can see where all this is leading?   

 

Statues are put up because they did something good for someone at some time.   It doesn't mean everyone will universally agree even at the time, although I think 99.99% of people would agree that a statue to Hitler in 1945 would be a no no.   And as time goes on, and values/fashions/sensibilities change, they most definitely come under review.
 
Personally, so long as the statue doesn't convey an offensive message on its plinth, then I can't get too excited about the poo-stained lump of concrete or metal.   Obviously if there are any words advocating discrimination, bigotry and violence ... then rip it down.   But that's rarely the case.

 

I think people read too much symbolism into statues and names.

 

If you were a British person living in the Republic Of Ireland, you might find some of the statues and Street Names glorifying freedom fighters/terrorists a bit uncomfortable if you thought about it too long.   So don't think about it too much.   It's what it is, it's their country, ignore them and move on.

 

Edited by worth_the_wait
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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, BKLFox said:

Meanwhile back in the UK & the marches now seeming to taint all Police officers the same, this happens

 

https://news.sky.com/story/disgusting-violent-attack-two-police-officers-injured-in-hackney-assault-12004526

It's deeply frustrating that almost all semblance of nuance is being lost.

 

It also, however, shouldn't be used as an excuse to discredit the whole thing as some might do. The facts speak for themselves.

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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Pulling things away from the statue debate and back to why the marches began in the first place:

 

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

 

unknown.png

 

The system is rotten from within, and while there a.) isn't much people in the UK can do about it and b.) the issue is being conflated either accidentally or deliberately with larger discussions on race, let's not lose sight of the initial ideas here.

That is a very powerful article.  It makes you very grateful for the polic service we have in the UK, even if that can also be improved.  We are starting from a much better position.

I like to idea of merging police, council and social services with the objective of building a cohesive community support agency, which has funds to work with and support commnunity organisations as well.

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