Coronavirus Thread

[yorkie1999]

43 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

11 months since NZ closed their borders:

 

 

Not completely, and there’s plenty of flights I’m and out of Australia.

[worth_the_wait]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

...I wasn't aware, yet again, that blaming the public and blaming the government was a dichotomy where one had to choose either/or.

Very true.  But the difference is this ...

 

I've not heard anyone say the Government has been blameless.   They have made mistakes, and done some things wrong.   Of course they have.   And they have done some things average/ok.   And they have some things well.

 

But there are lots of people who don't think the people have done anything wrong, and don't seem to think that there is such a thing as personal responsibility.   It's all, absolutely all, the Governments fault.  Everything, I tell you.

 

 

[ealingfox]

8 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

Very true.  But the difference is this ...

 

I've not heard anyone say the Government has been blameless.   They have made mistakes, and done some things wrong.   Of course they have.   And they have done some things average/ok.   And they have some things well.

 

But there are lots of people who don't think the people have done anything wrong, and don't seem to think that there is such a thing as personal responsibility.   It's all, absolutely all, the Governments fault.  Everything, I tell you.

 

 

 

That's just not true though is it?

[Benguin]

9 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Why do all these people on sky sit in front of massive bookshelves. 

I feel like a lot of people have invested in a place to sit for zoom meetings these last 10 months. 

[Lionator]

7 hours ago, leicsmac said:

...I wasn't aware, yet again, that blaming the public and blaming the government was a dichotomy where one had to choose either/or.

Reflective of our mess of a society. 

 

If you're a tory = the PUBLIC are to blame, the disgusting PUBLIC, how dare people blame the government.

If you're a deluded lefty = it's the GOVERNMENT, the public only follow the rules set!!

 

The truth is probably that the government have time after time taken action far too late, and the public compliance has become worse over time.  

[Lionator]

I think that yesterday's press conference was one of the most appalling messes I've ever seen. 

 

How can scare the public by announcing that covid is more lethal now, with the poorest, sketchiest evidence to support it???

 

Then you had the journalists picking and choosing the most negative things to ask questions about??? Hugh Pym from the BBC ffs quoting a flawed article saying that the Pfizer vaccine isn't working in Israel when the evidence is now emerging that it quite clearly is working both in terms of hospitalisations and infections. 

 

I would almost go as far to say that it's psychological warfare to increase compliance with vaccine uptake/adhering to restrictions.

Edited 23 January 2021 by Lionator

[Legend_in_blue]

Agree with the comments above.  I'm quite certain that Ferguson is once again the main driver for the narrative being given at yesterday's press conference.  Certainly has come from Nervtag, based on flimsy evidence as you have pointed out.

 

It's a real shame that between them, these journalists still cannot put together the right set of questions.  For example, pressing them on why the WHO has adjusted their protocols for PCR testing this week and are the UK going to implement the advice of WHO?

[worth_the_wait]

2 hours ago, ealingfox said:

 

That's just not true though is it?

I think you'll find it is.    

 

I've not even heard a Government minister or staunchest supporter say "we've done absolutely nothing wrong, at all."

[yorkie1999]

The simple fact of the matter is the government are there to protect the British people, that is their job and that's what they are voted in for. There will be probably 100,000 deaths due to the virus which means one of two things from the governments position , either the measures and controls put in place by the government are no good and they have failed in their job to protect the population, or the British people are not abiding by those rules, and if that's the case, the government have yet again failed with their inability to control the population. The idea is to manage a situation, not let others manage it for you, clearly the government cannot manage the situation and have allowed the population to manage itself. They are not fit to govern and have little respect from the electorate, and let's face it, a chubby bloke dangling from a crane waving a couple of union jacks may be ok on a rugby tour, but as a leader of a country??? 

[Corky]

The Government cannot be blamed for hundreds of people gathering in schools for weddings or house parties/ illegal raves. They cannot be blamed if people take no care with their hand hygiene or not wearing a mask.

 

They can be blamed for keeping schools open without adequate protection for teachers and staff and for threatening staff with the sack if they didn't return to sites and offices after banging on about staying at home when you can. Plus the lack of support for people to self-isolate.

[ealingfox]

18 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

I think you'll find it is.    

 

I've not even heard a Government minister or staunchest supporter say "we've done absolutely nothing wrong, at all."

 

Where have government ministers openly and honestly admitted to getting things wrong?

 

And I've not heard 'The Public' or their defenders say "we've done absolutely nothing wrong, at all". 

 

There's more nuance to it on both sides, you lazily being reductive of the other side isnt helpful. Everyone knows responsibility is shared, but seem to disagree that the government takes the lions share of that responsibility. 

Edited 23 January 2021 by ealingfox

[SpacedX]

1 hour ago, Legend_in_blue said:

Agree with the comments above.  I'm quite certain that Ferguson is once again the main driver for the narrative being given at yesterday's press conference.  Certainly has come from Nervtag, based on flimsy evidence as you have pointed out.

 

It's a real shame that between them, these journalists still cannot put together the right set of questions.  For example, pressing them on why the WHO has adjusted their protocols for PCR testing this week and are the UK going to implement the advice of WHO?

From what I understand, and correct me if I am wrong, you are referring to an update of an existing SOP written for In Vitro Diagnostic laboratories using PCR for the detection of SARS CoV-2, intended to clarify information previously provided by WHO superseding the previous iteration last month. This is what science does. It impresses that The Ct needed to detect the virus is inversely proportional to the patient’s viral load and so manual adjustment of the PCR positivity threshold may be necessary. It also reiterates the fact that most PCR assays are intended as an aid for diagnosis, and so health care providers must consider any result in combination with timing of sampling, specimen type, assay specifics, clinical observations, patient history, confirmed status of any contacts, and epidemiological information.

 

Throughout, you have seemed very fixated with a diagnostic test that you likely hadn't even heard of  months ago. 

[Trumpet]

1 hour ago, worth_the_wait said:

I think you'll find it is.    

 

I've not even heard a Government minister or staunchest supporter say "we've done absolutely nothing wrong, at all."

And I’ve not heard anyone say or suggest the public haven’t done anything wrong 
 

[worth_the_wait]

1 hour ago, ealingfox said:

 

Where have government ministers openly and honestly admitted to getting things wrong?

 

And I've not heard 'The Public' or their defenders say "we've done absolutely nothing wrong, at all". 

 

There's more nuance to it on both sides, you lazily being reductive of the other side isnt helpful. Everyone knows responsibility is shared, but seem to disagree that the government takes the lions share of that responsibility. 

I never said the Government had admitted to getting things wrong.  I said, they had never implied they got everything right.  A subtle difference.
 
Well, I've heard enough people say it's all the Government's fault, without criticising "the Public" at all ... which surely implies a blanket all or nothing statement.
 
I'm not being lazily reductive of the other side.   To repeat what I said about the Government a few hours ago:
 
"They have made mistakes, and done some things wrong.  they have done some things average/ok.   And they have some things well."
 

(how much clearer can I be?)

 
I totally agree with you when you say "there's more nuance to it".   Where I disagree is that, since this is a pandemic of an infectious disease primarily spread by contact by people, the lion's share of responsibility is with people to behave as they have been asked.
 
The Government can set the high level framework, like closing schools, pubs, restaurants, clubs, sports grounds, non-essential shops etc etc.   They can explain all the dangers, and ask us to stay at home, to protect the NHS, and to Save Lives.   They can also ask us to wear masks, keep our distance from people, not attend family gathering and parties, work from home if possible, and 101 other things.
 
But ultimately we live in a liberal democracy, not some totalitarian state.  The police aren't going to put us under curfew and shoot us when we step out our front doors.  It's our collective responsibility to do the sensible things as we've been asked.  
 

(as I have said earlier, surveys imply up to 95% of the population have been doing a pretty good job.   It's the other 5% (3+ million) selfish idiods who are helping to keep this pandemic alive and well.

 

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, Corky said:

The Government cannot be blamed for hundreds of people gathering in schools for weddings or house parties/ illegal raves. They cannot be blamed if people take no care with their hand hygiene or not wearing a mask.

 

They can be blamed for keeping schools open without adequate protection for teachers and staff and for threatening staff with the sack if they didn't return to sites and offices after banging on about staying at home when you can. Plus the lack of support for people to self-isolate.

Well, they can. If they hadn’t reduced policing levels to the current levels of basic unsustainably of the police force i.e. bobbies on the beat, eyes and ears on the streets, there wouldn’t have been a wedding in a school in the first place.

Edited 23 January 2021 by yorkie1999

[BKLFox]

3 hours ago, Lionator said:

I think that yesterday's press conference was one of the most appalling messes I've ever seen. 

 

How can scare the public by announcing that covid is more lethal now, with the poorest, sketchiest evidence to support it???

 

Then you had the journalists picking and choosing the most negative things to ask questions about??? Hugh Pym from the BBC ffs quoting a flawed article saying that the Pfizer vaccine isn't working in Israel when the evidence is now emerging that it quite clearly is working both in terms of hospitalisations and infections. 

 

I would almost go as far to say that it's psychological warfare to increase compliance with vaccine uptake/adhering to restrictions.

Are you suggesting that it isn’t, with your last statement I guess your saying you don’t believe them.

 

If I never watched a single COVID press conference I could work out from film footage, published stats & on personal experience that this variant is more potent.

 

In March did we see the NHS breaking at the seams in a way that’s reported now, did we see the lines of ambulances in 3hr+ queues outside of A&E departments, did we see the daily death figures continually pass their ‘record’ in such a short space of time that we have seen in Dec/Jan.

I’m not saying there wasn’t a strain on the NHS prior to the new variant but putting your head up it just seems different this time round does it not and as reported by our very own medical representatives and health workers within this forum.

Using my daughters school as an indicator for spread, I would struggle to remember 5 cases reported from the whole of the grand re-opening to beginning of November, just 5 in a school with 1500+ pupils and staff on top of that but from November the cases rocketed to a point where the school had to shut its gates on the 4th Dec, 3 weeks before end of term due to cases being so high in that 4 week period.

 

This trend isn’t isolated to the UK, I’ll use Germany as an example.
On 30th Dec they recorded their highest daily death toll this being 1112 people, compared to an average 500 during their peak, this new figure took their total to around 32k deaths, BUT this morning it quietly went unnoticed that they have just passed 50k deaths, that’s 18k or more than double the previous yearly death toll condensed into the 23 days of January and that’s with the UKs break-through of identifying COVID fighting drugs and a world wide better understanding of CV19 itself.
To further put context on that figure between March and May their total death rates was 1 of the lowest of all European countries at 7,869.

 

Now I’m no rocket scientist but I don’t need someone from the government to stand up in front of me and show me a slide to work out that this probably is a more lethal mutation of CV19 and if anyone doesn’t take heed they are not part of the solution, they’re part of the problem.

[st albans fox]

12 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

11 months since NZ closed their borders:

 

 

Doesn’t look great .......but then every person in those queues should have tested negative within the past 72 hours or they shouldn’t be there  ??
 

there will be the odd person that has become infectious since their test but won’t be many if at all.  Journos need to work on highlighting the real problems out there rather than the easy ‘sound bites/photos’.

 

 

[JonnyBoy]

12 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

 

Spot on. But it's not a popular thing to say.

"Yeah but Cummings went for a drive nine months ago blah blah" and they use that as an excuse to hide behind.

Not enough personal responsibility taken by the public.

Easier to blame others in life.

 

Always said this, yea the government haven't done a cracking job but some of the public are to blame. Notice how its always the ones moaning about being in lockdown are the ones who are often breaking the rules ? 

 

It is little things like people will be sharing lifts with others outside their bubble, people are treating it like a game and "what can i get away with" mentality. Anyone caught at a house party or blatantly flouting the rules should be find £10,000 not £800 they have increased it too. We are far too soft and i think the government should be more heavy handed.

 

No one wants to be living by rules, it sucks.. but let's just do a simple thing to save lives and we will be able to ease restrictions sooner. 

 

[StanSP]

34 minutes ago, BKLFox said:

Are you suggesting that it isn’t, with your last statement I guess your saying you don’t believe them.

 

Aren't the experts and scientists saying it's too early to tell?

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

It’s the End of the World as we know it.

And I don’t feel fine.

[BKLFox]

43 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Aren't the experts and scientists saying it's too early to tell?

My point is, real life experience as shown is suggesting it is, why wait to be told 

 

Everyone’s Quick to aim a shot at the government for acting too slow so why don’t we as the population seeing the higher stats shooting up since Nov just assume it is and act accordingly without being told and if they say in time actually there is or isn’t any difference then no harm no foul.

 

Just waiting to be told then laying blame on the gov for not reacting sooner despite seeing the clues seems a rather hypocritical and stupid way to manage your life.

Edited 23 January 2021 by BKLFox

[Fightforever]

 

First time I felt like laughing and crying at the same time.

[StanSP]

11 minutes ago, Fightforever said:

First time I felt like laughing and crying at the same time.

So robotic. No wonder they lack empathy.

[Lionator]

25 minutes ago, BKLFox said:

My point is, real life experience as shown is suggesting it is, why wait to be told 

 

Everyone’s Quick to aim a shot at the government for acting too slow so why don’t we as the population seeing the higher stats shooting up since Nov just assume it is and act accordingly without being told and if they say in time actually there is or isn’t any difference then no harm no foul.

 

Just waiting to be told then laying blame on the gov for not reacting sooner despite seeing the clues seems a rather hypocritical and stupid way to manage your life.

Do I believe they're lying? No. Do I believe they've been massively irresponsible in how they've communicated this then yes. By all accounts it was Ferguson who leaked it to Peston. 

 

I would also argue that at this stage a higher lethality means pretty much nothing (unless it was double or whatever). We're in lockdown, cases are coming down, vaccination is taking place and this variant responds just the same against the vaccine. So who benefits from this information now??

[BKLFox]

10 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Do I believe they're lying? No. Do I believe they've been massively irresponsible in how they've communicated this then yes. By all accounts it was Ferguson who leaked it to Peston. 

 

I would also argue that at this stage a higher lethality means pretty much nothing (unless it was double or whatever). We're in lockdown, cases are coming down, vaccination is taking place and this variant responds just the same against the vaccine. So who benefits from this information now??

Germany’s example is over double for deaths from March to Nov and then Nov to Jan
 

I’d suggest The 400 at the wedding, the 200 at the party, the people doing a 300mile trip for a walk with a view, the X at the Z what ever it is, there loads of examples of people that need a short sharp shock to bring the downward trend in further and faster.

 

Vaccines here granted, but the more breaking of rules prolongs the lockdown