Formula 1 2021

[The Horse's Mouth]

think this would definitely be for the best, I don't have an issue with team principals talking about incidents, like the brake test in Saudi or the corner cut in Abu Dhabi, but there should not be communication like Horner during the safety car and Toto begging for not having a safety car

 

 

[AKCJ]

8 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

think this would definitely be for the best, I don't have an issue with team principals talking about incidents, like the brake test in Saudi or the corner cut in Abu Dhabi, but there should not be communication like Horner during the safety car and Toto begging for not having a safety car

 

 

I'm not well versed in Formula 1 but isn't this essentially like giving Alex Ferguson a direct line between Old Trafford and the VAR and then broadcast to the world? It's obviously entertaining but not really sporting IMO.

[The Horse's Mouth]

2 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

I'm not well versed in Formula 1 but isn't this essentially like giving Alex Ferguson a direct line between Old Trafford and the VAR and then broadcast to the world? It's obviously entertaining but not really sporting IMO.

In this case it's basically you're doing a VAR decision and you've got SAF and Wenger in your ear while making the decision.

[AKCJ]

7 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

In this case it's basically you're doing a VAR decision and you've got SAF and Wenger in your ear while making the decision.

Yeah sounds utterly ridiculous. Very entertaining but surely not what's best for the sport?

[The Horse's Mouth]

2 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Yeah sounds utterly ridiculous. Very entertaining but surely not what's best for the sport?

I think with this season especially it's opened the eyes because the FIA radio with teams has never been broadcast before, both hounding the ref so to speak is not what's best for the sport. I think certain incidents are fine or when you need direct communication, but the levels we've seen this year has been ridiculous. Masi gets a lot of flack and his job is hard as it is without being hounded by two of the top teams.

 

[UniFox21]

34 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

think this would definitely be for the best, I don't have an issue with team principals talking about incidents, like the brake test in Saudi or the corner cut in Abu Dhabi, but there should not be communication like Horner during the safety car and Toto begging for not having a safety car

 

 

Fully agree, whilst I've enjoyed the memes of "This isn't right Michael", Horner screaming down the mic and other clips we've had from team principles, the fact they can do things mid race isn't great.

 

There should be a way for principals to say "agree, okay, disagree" during race and then keep all the in-race screaming to the end of race. 

[Legend_in_blue]

Masi hasn't walked yet then?

 

He's probably waiting for the inevitable Mercedes appeal before considering his next move.

[Izzy]

On the subject of communication, what about the team principles speaking with the TV commentary team during the race?

 

Seems odd to me and the same as if Brendan Rodgers was talking to John Champion and Ally McCoist during the game.

[st albans fox]

5 minutes ago, Izzy said:

On the subject of communication, what about the team principles speaking with the TV commentary team during the race?

 

Seems odd to me and the same as if Brendan Rodgers was talking to John Champion and Ally McCoist during the game.

Happens in rugby and some of the T20 cricket - there's no harm in it ........... the interviewee rarely says anything notable .....just blah blah blah and the audience laps it up ! 

Edited 13 December 2021 by st albans fox

[masterg59]

[The Bear]

I wonder what Ross Brawn thinks about it all. He is there to help get a better show and racing. 

[goody2028]

[Stinkenzo]

Yesterday's ending would make for great entertainment on a Netflix Series, if only F1 had something like that 

[Jimmy]

if Masi is still there next year I'm genuinely unsure if I'll bother watching, you cannot have someone making rules up on the spot like he did

[cityfanlee23]

7 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

The pit circumstances are irrelevant though, these strategy calls are part and parcel of F1, Redbull had nothing to lose in that situation cause they had the gap on the rest of the field, because Max had done his job in the race. The race director should not decide to end the race under safety car purely because of these variables you've brought up, you can't just finish the race under safety car because Redbull have made a perfectly legitimate gamble to level the playing field with Lewis. 

 

And looking at the contentious issue, Sainz was on a 1 stop on much worn tyres on a weaker compound, while I definitely agree that he can still feel aggrieved the likelihood of him challenging Max off the line was extremely unlikely anyway and clutching at straws really. (EDIT: also I could be wrong here but didn't he have backmarkers behind him to cement his position as 3rd?)The safety car restart for the cars we are disputing here in 44 and 33 is exactly how every safety car restart is done(barring bad conditions i.e weather). 

 

The rule that was "changed" was the fact that they need another lap to bunch up to the pack, which at the end of the day didn't have any impact on the result in question. But as I said, those cars that didn't unlap should be the ones most aggrieved by the decision

 

I understand it's a bitter pill to swallow and I did say that I think Masi handled it poorly and he had backed himself into a corner. He needs to be much more of a dictator rather than flip flopping cause it does continue to undermine him, even with the first incident where Lewis cut the corner, I thought that was definitely a penalty but Masi stuck to his guns and said this is what it is deal with it.But I think people are largely fuming because Max had the tyre advantage which was perfectly legal in this context.

I'll be completely honest with you mate, I've had this conversation about 50x with other people over the last 24 hours and you probably have too, given your profile picture I can't see us agreeing on this. The pit circumstances are relevant, because Mercedes had all the risk and RB had zero risk in terms of Max's championship, Mercedes said to Hamilton multiple times they can't afford to pit because they would give up track position under a safety car, which gifts Max the championship when you look at where Latifi's car was and the amount of debris in the area, it was always going to take 2-3 laps to clear, then a lap to allow everyone to unlap themselves, then by law the safety lap is required to stay out for 1 lap after everyone has unlapped, I immediately thought that it would end under SC But the rules were changed in order to get some racing, this was not fair on Lewis in the slightest, Mercedes made the point to not pit specifically because of the safety car knowing it would likely end behind one. If they knew Masi was going to break the rules, they would have pitted. 

As it goes, I think Max was a worthy winner, he had the faster car this year and he led the GP for over 650 laps compared to Lewis who was roughly half. But on the day, the race director made a change that gifted one driver a monumental advantage over another driver. 

Regarding the first lap incident, Lewis gave his time advantage back to Max by lifting off when he re-joined the track. Max dive bombed a 60mph corner and ended up having to brake down to about 10mph to make the corner stick, I don't really like this kind of driving to be honest, sure Max had the right to try to make that move, but it was excessively aggressive to the point you almost have to come to a complete stop to stay on track and force someone off. There's lunging, and then there's a torpedo. Not a fan of the torpedo in racing, if we allow that kind of thing to go unchallenged or expect drivers to be given a position on the basis that they were in front at the corner even if they are dangerously diving in, for me it sets a dangerous precedent, IMO we should not allow drivers just to drive into a corner at break neck speeds on the basis of "well I was in front so it's my position now and you have to yield"  but I appreciate many people want to see excessively aggressive driving like this. 

I can't see us agreeing on this, and honestly I'm knackered from having this conversation with others so hope you don't mind me dipping out and we can agree to disagree. 

Edited 13 December 2021 by cityfanlee23

[cityfanlee23]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

if Masi is still there next year I'm genuinely unsure if I'll bother watching, you cannot have someone making rules up on the spot like he did

I'll still watch, but honestly, one of my main worries, is that if these new regulations and spending caps are successful, we won't have 2 drivers almost killing each other every week, it could be 3-4 drivers fighting for corners. Masi can barely handle 1 decision let alone the additional accidents that will be caused if you have 3/4/5 competitive cars next year all fighting for track position. 

[The Horse's Mouth]

14 hours ago, cityfanlee23 said:

I'll be completely honest with you mate, I've had this conversation about 50x with other people over the last 24 hours and you probably have too, given your profile picture I can't see us agreeing on this. The pit circumstances are relevant, because Mercedes had all the risk and RB had zero risk in terms of Max's championship, Mercedes said to Hamilton multiple times they can't afford to pit because they would give up track position under a safety car, which gifts Max the championship when you look at where Latifi's car was and the amount of debris in the area, it was always going to take 2-3 laps to clear, then a lap to allow everyone to unlap themselves, then by law the safety lap is required to stay out for 1 lap after everyone has unlapped, I immediately thought that it would end under SC But the rules were changed in order to get some racing, this was not fair on Lewis in the slightest, Mercedes made the point to not pit specifically because of the safety car knowing it would likely end behind one. If they knew Masi was going to break the rules, they would have pitted. 

No the pit strategy isn't relevant, the pit strategy is formula one. Mercedes would've never pitted him because of track position and the fact had he pitted there's a good chance he'd have been behind checo who was still very much in the race. This is what annoys me about the argument I've seen from celebrities as well, this incident is completely formula one the issue is with the safety car. The fact max was on a fresher compound and Lewis hadn't pitted is not at all relevant to the idea that it was stolen away from him. Lewis has gained a lot of points from the race being neutralised as well, you can't use that as an argument for the race having to finish under the safety car it's not understanding the sport. The teams all had an agreement before the race that the race should finish under green flag under any conditions, so I think a lot of the worry you hear from Lewis' radio is with that in mind.

 

Don't want to retort any of the other stuff cause I'm also tired of the argument and most of that wasn't really relevant to the point being made, but it's been a nice debate 

Edited 14 December 2021 by The Horse's Mouth

[Rusko187]

I can see this debate rumbling on for some time, for me, I am a huge Hamilton fan and I do believe he was robbed of the world title caused by a contentious decision from the race director.. However, I do feel Verstappen did everything he needed to in that last lap to nick the championship, cannot begrudge him on that.

 

Firstly, it's good to see that F1 is cutting the ability for Teams to discuss decisions with the Race Director... that for me is wrong and is open to abuse, and this is where my issue with the race comes.

 

A decision was made by the race director that it would restart with the lapped cars remaining in their position. After a conversation with Horner, he changed that decision to allow the lapped cars between Hamilton and Verstappen to pass and not the rest of the field. For me, rules are rules, all lapped cars should pass and the race commence again. Sorry if that sounds petulant, but I don't like the idea of rules being adjusted to fit a desired outcome. Sure it made for an exciting finish, but it was totally wrong.

[Footballwipe]

So, Formula 1 2022.

 

What can we expect from the cars? I see that the Honda engines are now branded Red Bull engines with Honda supplying them till 2025. Are there any indications on the improvement level we're expecting from teams? Will it be a RBR/Merc romp once more, or can we get Ferrari back to their best, or another team poking their head through to challenge for wins?

 

Also excited to see how Russell does in the Mercedes, and whether there's a significant challenge to Hamilton's #1 status.

[AKCJ]

20 hours ago, Walkers said:

Yesterday's ending would make for great entertainment on a Netflix Series, if only F1 had something like that 

Are they not doing Drive to Survive for the 2021 season?

[The Horse's Mouth]

32 minutes ago, Footballwipe said:

So, Formula 1 2022.

 

What can we expect from the cars? I see that the Honda engines are now branded Red Bull engines with Honda supplying them till 2025. Are there any indications on the improvement level we're expecting from teams? Will it be a RBR/Merc romp once more, or can we get Ferrari back to their best, or another team poking their head through to challenge for wins?

 

Also excited to see how Russell does in the Mercedes, and whether there's a significant challenge to Hamilton's #1 status.

All the cars are going to ground effect so it's really up in the air as to who will have the better package.

[Super_horns]

They were obviously keen to have some sort of racing on Sunday at the end rather than finish an exciting close season with the Championship being decided by Hamilton crossing the line behind the safety car but totally made a right old cock up in the process making things look worse and contrived.
 

[cityfanlee23]

4 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

No the pit strategy isn't relevant, the pit strategy is formula one. Mercedes would've never pitted him because of track position and the fact had he pitted there's a good chance he'd have been behind checo who was still very much in the race. This is what annoys me about the argument I've seen from celebrities as well, this incident is completely formula one the issue is with the safety car. The fact max was on a fresher compound and Lewis hadn't pitted is not at all relevant to the idea that it was stolen away from him. Lewis has gained a lot of points from the race being neutralised as well, you can't use that as an argument for the race having to finish under the safety car it's not understanding the sport. The teams all had an agreement before the race that the race should finish under green flag under any conditions, so I think a lot of the worry you hear from Lewis' radio is with that in mind.

 

Don't want to retort any of the other stuff cause I'm also tired of the argument and most of that wasn't really relevant to the point being made, but it's been a nice debate 

And the strategy Mercedes were forced to take was because of the F1 rules. Which meant following those rules would have resulted in the race finishing under the safety car. Therefore it's 1000% relevant. Mercedes based their strategy around the rules being followed, how on earth can you say that's not then relevant when the rules are changed on the final lap of the final race? 

Of course they would not have pitted, the race should have ended under safety car, other teams including Ferrari openly said this to their drivers. Just listen to Sainz on the radio, Ferrari told him the race would end under safety car before rules were changed, how you can say that this isn't relevant is mindboggling tbh. The entire debate revolves around the fact Mercedes did not pit, because they followed the rules. 

[cityfanlee23]

I've no real reason to have this opinion, but I have a gut feeling (hope) that Ferrari will have a very solid season, they have come on leaps and bounds this season compared to last year where they were almost the worst car on the track at times. 
 

[The Horse's Mouth]

23 minutes ago, cityfanlee23 said:

And the strategy Mercedes were forced to take was because of the F1 rules. Which meant following those rules would have resulted in the race finishing under the safety car. Therefore it's 1000% relevant. Mercedes based their strategy around the rules being followed, how on earth can you say that's not then relevant when the rules are changed on the final lap of the final race? 

Of course they would not have pitted, the race should have ended under safety car, other teams including Ferrari openly said this to their drivers. Just listen to Sainz on the radio, Ferrari told him the race would end under safety car before rules were changed, how you can say that this isn't relevant is mindboggling tbh. The entire debate revolves around the fact Mercedes did not pit, because they followed the rules. 

That is not true though, them not pitting has nothing to do with them following the rules or them being forced not to pit, they didn't pit because of strategy. They were gambling on the race finishing under safety car, the point of contention is that certain cars were able to unlap without doing a full lap behind the safety car. had Masi not allowed them to unlap themselves the last lap would've been under green racing conditions regardless because the incident had been cleared. It's not a requirement for the lapped cars to unlap themselves on a race restart and this would've been the scenario that would've played out and this would've been perfectly legal. Again nothing to do with strategy calls, or the idea that mercedes were forced to take one strategy call because of the rules.

 

Mercedes didn't pit purely on track position and had they pitted Max would've probably stayed out and had a much better opportunity to defend Lewis despite being on the harder tyre but has much less wear. And the scenario at the time could've well been Max on worn tyres but checo on a fresh soft behind Lewis to also prevent him taking the lead and again this is purely a strategy call, nothing to do with the "rules"

 

The point of contention is whether the lapped cars that unlapped themselves was legal, not the fact mercedes didn't pit because "they were following the rules", again it's irrelevant. The race would've finsihed under green flag rules regardless the point of contention is the lapped cars, the strategy is irrelevant.

Edited 14 December 2021 by The Horse's Mouth