Fans in attendance

[grobyfox1990]

21 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

The thread is astonishing. The ramblings of an unhinged man without fear of being deposed. 

Real talk: FIFA as an organisation is beyond consequence. They’re seemingly outside the jurisdictions of governments. Where’s the accountability? It’s out of control and apparently there’s nothing anybody can do about it.

 

Bar the doors, set fire to it, and let everyone inside burn.

 

We’ve built a world where money is the only thing that matters and these guys can generate billions of it without thinking. Imagine essentially cancelling a major commercial contract (Budweiser) worth tens of millions two days before launch date and the client basically says ‘cool no worries bro’ 

 

Everyone here will be watching the tournament so our moral ramblings are questioned, our viewing figures add to the commercial contract value 

[MPH]

This is the one time I would support a ‘break away’organization- on ethical grounds.

 

 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

It's literally Fyre Festival isn't it. 

[FoyleFox]

3 hours ago, Pliskin said:

There’s been many international events held by nations that shouldn’t. Even now our own governments advice for members of the LGBTQ+ community to “tone it down a bit”, is utterly staggering. That’s a completely homophobic comment, so we’ve also let ourselves down during this build up too. 
 

The one advantage is if the players actively show support, which helps highlight the issues promoting change, then it can be a good thing.  But the very moral fabric of the nation is controversial, any nation that has policies that are obviously discriminatory should not receive support and backing, especially when they are written into law to create such harm to members of those communities.

What was it that had to be 'toned down' and what made that comment homophobic? I don't think I understood why that was deemed outrageous, as I'd interpreted it as I did when reading the advice given by the government when travelling to Qatar and similar countries anyway. We visited Qatar, UAE, Bahrain a couple of years ago and there was a lot of travel advice regarding things not to do, which you wouldn't think twice about at home - no public displays of affection - holding hands, kissing. Women should cover shoulders and knees etc. So for anyone visiting from the UK, moderated behaviour is advised. A married man and woman shouldn't hold hands, so if the government meant the same for a gay couple, it's not homophobic. Did I interpret the statement incorrectly?

[kingkisnorbo]

.

Edited 19 November 2022 by kingkisnorbo

[Daggers]

Wow. That press conference was brilliant. INFANTino really was appropriately named 😂

[Pliskin]

2 hours ago, FoyleFox said:

What was it that had to be 'toned down' and what made that comment homophobic? I don't think I understood why that was deemed outrageous, as I'd interpreted it as I did when reading the advice given by the government when travelling to Qatar and similar countries anyway. We visited Qatar, UAE, Bahrain a couple of years ago and there was a lot of travel advice regarding things not to do, which you wouldn't think twice about at home - no public displays of affection - holding hands, kissing. Women should cover shoulders and knees etc. So for anyone visiting from the UK, moderated behaviour is advised. A married man and woman shouldn't hold hands, so if the government meant the same for a gay couple, it's not homophobic. Did I interpret the statement incorrectly?

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/26/uk-minister-criticised-over-call-for-gay-world-cup-fans-to-show-respect-in-qatar

 

It’s pretty clear. 

[ithuriel]

Kids just get excited with the thing and sticker albums, was in my local shop the other day and a group of boys were straining to see over the counter on tip toe to get a look at the packs of cards and asking how much they were.

Made me think, a lot has changed since I was that small but some things never change.

[Paninistickers]

41 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/26/uk-minister-criticised-over-call-for-gay-world-cup-fans-to-show-respect-in-qatar

 

It’s pretty clear. 

I'm inclined to agree with @FoyleFox in that, there are many things you are advised to do abroad by moderating normal UK behaviour out of respect for local sensitivity. 

 

I'm also a little uncomfortable that we (ie British, Europeans, the west) giving it the Big I Am about tolerance, yet not one single player in Europe  has EVER felt comfortable enough to come out. So much for tolerance ! 

Qatar Clearly has bizarre laws on homosexual relationships, but they were here too as little as 60 odd years ago when the church still had a large role in the state. Outlawing love was Bizarre then and is bizarre now. But let's not be pious. 

 

 

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

1 minute ago, Paninistickers said:

I'm also a little uncomfortable that we (ie British, Europeans, the west) giving it the Big I Am about tolerance, yet not one single player in Europe  has EVER felt comfortable enough to come out. So much for tolerance ! 

Qatar Clearly has bizarre laws on homosexual relationships, but they were here too as little as 60 odd years ago when the church still had a large role in the state. Outlawing love was Bizarre then and is bizarre now. But let's not be pious. 

 

 

Our law about this was horrible then; their law about this is horrible now.

 

The first part of that sentence being true doesn't invalidate pointing out that the second part is also true.

 

(Also, you mean not one single male player. Plenty of female players have felt able to).

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

They've got bottomless amounts of cash and have had 12 years to organise an event and second half looking settees on carpets in a space devoid of, well, anything? Is the best they could do. It's like when you've got a massive amount of homework to do and leave it to the night before and realise you've got no chance. 

[Paninistickers]

20 minutes ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

Our law about this was horrible then; their law about this is horrible now.

 

The first part of that sentence being true doesn't invalidate pointing out that the second part is also true.

 

(Also, you mean not one single male player. Plenty of female players have felt able to).

I agree. But my point is about our holier then thou stance. There are aspects of our culture that the Qataris must find disgusting. Friday nights in any Saturday, people vomiting in the street, fighting, stumbling about, blowjobs in alleyways etc etc. ....and then they are supposed to listen to lectures on morality from us. 

 

Plus our mock rage on migrant workers..Infamtino is an idiot, but if worded better, his speech couldve pointed to the faux support of  migrant workers from the west, yet those some virtue signallers buy endless shite from sweatshops in China, Bangladesh and Cambodia without giving a monkeys, export our  recycling to get dumped on Indonesian islands etc etc

 

Basically, I'm uncomfortable with us slagging Qatar off, that's all. 

 

 

[Pliskin]

21 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

I'm inclined to agree with @FoyleFox in that, there are many things you are advised to do abroad by moderating normal UK behaviour out of respect for local sensitivity. 

 

I'm also a little uncomfortable that we (ie British, Europeans, the west) giving it the Big I Am about tolerance, yet not one single player in Europe  has EVER felt comfortable enough to come out. So much for tolerance ! 

Qatar Clearly has bizarre laws on homosexual relationships, but they were here too as little as 60 odd years ago when the church still had a large role in the state. Outlawing love was Bizarre then and is bizarre now. But let's not be pious. 

 

 

I’m sorry, but I do respectfully disagree with your point. 
 

Yes we had similar laws 60 years ago, but that was 60 years ago. Fast forward and we’ve started to wake up and smell the coffee a bit, but there is also still a long way to go…. 
 

Bizarre really isn’t the right word for it. Evil would be a better word. The whole world has to collectively do better, because no person should be made to feel inadequate because of who they are… but to still make it illegal to be a member of the LGBTQ+ is something that can’t be supported, not to mention the degrading treatment of women and appalling human rights bills… 

 

there are many things you are advised to do abroad by moderating normal UK behaviour out of respect for local sensitivity

This is a really poor choice of words…. Being a member of the LGBTQ+ community isn’t a behaviour!!! Asking a member of said community to repress their personality through fear of offending the locals. What kind of world do we live in if this is an acceptable stance to take? The questions that should be asked are why on Earth does a nation still have these laws in place? 
 

It’s 2022…. Not 1822…. 
 

Sport is about the inclusion of all, and we’re still making catastrophic mistakes. If anything, this World Cup just proves that modern day sport is in a desperate state, and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. FIFA’s handling of this has been a disgrace. I only hope the players use this as an opportunity like you’ve eluded to, to raise awareness of the issues facing the hosts. 

[Pliskin]

5 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

I agree. But my point is about our holier then thou stance. There are aspects of our culture that the Qataris must find disgusting. Friday nights in any Saturday, people vomiting in the street, fighting, stumbling about, blowjobs in alleyways etc etc. ....and then they are supposed to listen to lectures on morality from us. 

 

Plus our mock rage on migrant workers..Infamtino is an idiot, but if worded better, his speech couldve pointed to the faux support of  migrant workers from the west, yet those some virtue signallers buy endless shite from sweatshops in China, Bangladesh and Cambodia without giving a monkeys, export our  recycling to get dumped on Indonesian islands etc etc

 

Basically, I'm uncomfortable with us slagging Qatar off, that's all. 

 

 

I’m sorry, but you absolutely can’t compare being a member of the LGBTQ+ community, to getting pissed and being sick in the street…… 

 

It’s almost implying that being a member of this community is an issue? 
 

Lots of my friends are members of the LGBTQ+ community, and they’re the most wonderful people I know and I wouldn’t change a single thing about them. So I am not uncomfortable about being vocal regarding my lack of support for a nation who’s laws are as harsh as they are towards the community.

[Paninistickers]

13 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

I’m sorry, but you absolutely can’t compare being a member of the LGBTQ+ community, to getting pissed and being sick in the street…… 

 

It’s almost implying that being a member of this community is an issue? 
 

Lots of my friends are members of the LGBTQ+ community, and they’re the most wonderful people I know and I wouldn’t change a single thing about them. So I am not uncomfortable about being vocal regarding my lack of support for a nation who’s laws are as harsh as they are towards the community.

No, I'm implying that there are things we do that other cultures would find disgusting, using booze as an example. 

 

Equally, their stance on homosexuality we (Inc me) find disgusting...I'm saying we are in no place to.preach. Question, criticise, mock maybe....but lecture and take moral high ground,. nope 

 

 

[grobyfox1990]

15 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

I’m sorry, but I do respectfully disagree with your point. 
 

Yes we had similar laws 60 years ago, but that was 60 years ago. Fast forward and we’ve started to wake up and smell the coffee a bit, but there is also still a long way to go…. 
 

Bizarre really isn’t the right word for it. Evil would be a better word. The whole world has to collectively do better, because no person should be made to feel inadequate because of who they are… but to still make it illegal to be a member of the LGBTQ+ is something that can’t be supported, not to mention the degrading treatment of women and appalling human rights bills… 

 

there are many things you are advised to do abroad by moderating normal UK behaviour out of respect for local sensitivity

This is a really poor choice of words…. Being a member of the LGBTQ+ community isn’t a behaviour!!! Asking a member of said community to repress their personality through fear of offending the locals. What kind of world do we live in if this is an acceptable stance to take? The questions that should be asked are why on Earth does a nation still have these laws in place? 
 

It’s 2022…. Not 1822…. 
 

Sport is about the inclusion of all, and we’re still making catastrophic mistakes. If anything, this World Cup just proves that modern day sport is in a desperate state, and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. FIFA’s handling of this has been a disgrace. I only hope the players use this as an opportunity like you’ve eluded to, to raise awareness of the issues facing the hosts. 

The players couldn’t care less about raising awareness, they are all in Qatar, so quite clearly they value the $ over the rights of the community. No amount of rainbow armbands will make them an ally, they are an enemy of the lgbtq+ community by being there. Sovereign nations can do what that hell they like in their countries, it’s not for the west to force liberalisation and homogenisation down the worlds throat when we feel we are ready, doesn’t mean I have to support it. 

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

38 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Basically, I'm uncomfortable with us slagging Qatar off, that's all. 

Point taken, but there are plenty of people slagging Qatar off who also slag off other countries where workers are treated appallingly, countries with repressive, authoritarian and illiberal regimes, and countries where minorities of all kinds are subject to discrimination that ranges from intolerance, through violence, to death. Not everyone criticising Qatar is a hypocrite.

 

Also, Qatar has gone out of its way to host this tournament, so has expressly invited the eyes of the world to be on it. It can't complain if the world doesn't like it.

Edited 19 November 2022 by Manley Farrington-Brown

[Paninistickers]

9 minutes ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

Point taken, but there are plenty of people slagging Qatar off who also slag off other countries where workers are treated appallingly, countries with repressive, authoritarian and illiberal regimes, and countries where minorities of all kinds are subject to discrimination that ranges from intolerance, through violence, to death. Not everyone criticising Qatar is a hypocrite.

 

Also, Qatar has gone out of its way to host this tournament, so has expressly invited the eyes of the world to be on it. It can't complain if the world doesn't like it.

True dat

[Fear Of The Fox]

I can't understand why there is even a debate/argument about Qatar. I see people coming up with lines like "it's their law, it's their country, we need to respect that". Let's have the next WC then at North Korea. Why not? They have ther own laws, we need to respect them. 

Money, more money and hypocrisy everywhere. 

[K1FOX]

3 hours ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

Point taken, but there are plenty of people slagging Qatar off who also slag off other countries where workers are treated appallingly, countries with repressive, authoritarian and illiberal regimes, and countries where minorities of all kinds are subject to discrimination that ranges from intolerance, through violence, to death. Not everyone criticising Qatar is a hypocrite.

 

Also, Qatar has gone out of its way to host this tournament, so has expressly invited the eyes of the world to be on it. It can't complain if the world doesn't like it.

Is it the world that doesn’t like it though? Or is it certain European countries? Important to remember there are 32 nations from all different continents taking part all with their own laws and cultures and way of doing things.

 

I’ve seen lots of videos of fans having a great time in Qatar, it’s just the media have chosen their narrative for the tournament and will be sure to stick to it, only showing what fits said

 

Edited 20 November 2022 by K1FOX

[hackenbacker]

1 hour ago, K1FOX said:

Is it the world that doesn’t like it though? Or is it certain European countries? Important to remember there are 32 nations from all different continents taking part all with their own laws and cultures and way of doing things.

 

I’ve seen lots of videos of fans having a great time in Qatar, it’s just the media have chosen their narrative for the tournament and will be sure to stick to it, only showing what fits said

 

There are 7 countries in Qatar where homosexuality is illegal. 4 countries that rank lower than Qatar on the human rights index and 5 countries that rank lower than Qatar on the female rights index. There are 5 countries that are in all 3 categories (illegal homosexuality, lower human and female rights).

[tom27111]

35 minutes ago, hackenbacker said:

There are 7 countries in Qatar where homosexuality is illegal. 4 countries that rank lower than Qatar on the human rights index and 5 countries that rank lower than Qatar on the female rights index. There are 5 countries that are in all 3 categories (illegal homosexuality, lower human and female rights).

 

My problem isn't with Qatar.

 

It's a sovereign nation in it's own right. 

 

They can implement whatever laws they like. Although CLEARLY wrong. 

 

My problem is with FIFA. 

 

We know they were bribed for it.

 

Why else would they put themselves in this situation?

 

I've read this evening that Brazil had a blanket ban on alcohol in stadia, because of crowd trouble. FIFA told them if they wanted the World Cup, that ban would have to be overturned. And it was non-negotiable. 

 

All about money. Why is a state that murders journalists allowed to run a Premier League club too? 

 

💰💰💰

[ozleicester]

5 hours ago, hackenbacker said:

There are 7 countries in Qatar where homosexuality is illegal. 4 countries that rank lower than Qatar on the human rights index and 5 countries that rank lower than Qatar on the female rights index. There are 5 countries that are in all 3 categories (illegal homosexuality, lower human and female rights).

none of which is currently hosting the world cup, your continued strawmanning of every conversation is boring.

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

5 hours ago, hackenbacker said:

There are 7 countries in Qatar where homosexuality is illegal. 4 countries that rank lower than Qatar on the human rights index and 5 countries that rank lower than Qatar on the female rights index. There are 5 countries that are in all 3 categories (illegal homosexuality, lower human and female rights).

Firstly:

So to put it another way 81% of countries represented at Qatar score higher than the hosts on female rights, and 84% score higher on overall human rights.

 

Secondly:

How can there be five countries in all three categories when one of the categories only contains four countries?

 

Thirdly (to be pedantic, coz it's always fun to be pedantic):

There are no 'countries' in Qatar, only the representative football teams of the Football Associations from countries.

[VLC86]

7 hours ago, K1FOX said:

Is it the world that doesn’t like it though? Or is it certain European countries? Important to remember there are 32 nations from all different continents taking part all with their own laws and cultures and way of doing things.

 

I’ve seen lots of videos of fans having a great time in Qatar, it’s just the media have chosen their narrative for the tournament and will be sure to stick to it, only showing what fits said

 

There will be plenty of people that have a good time, I’d probably have a great time in North Korea, but you can’t deny that proportionately we are likely to see more issues here than we would in other countries.

 

I booked time off to go out there but I’m off to Gran Canaria instead. Too expensive to be drinking muddy water in a £150 a night tent and getting my hands chopped off for being who I am. Not for me.