Grady Diangana

[Viva]

37 minutes ago, Scotch said:

It's not really as simples that though is it? Who would we have played instead of them? How much would their replacement cost? How much would they want? How would the deal be structured in terms of financial years? 

 

They could have offered £2m up front for Soumare with the rest paid over 5 years, we would have had to replace him which would have put stress on our finances and we were already flirting with FFP....

 

I'm not going to pretend I know all about how deals are put together but I know its not as simple as "here's 15m give me him..."

I was just making the point that there have been options to get rid of some of our deadwood. For whatever reason, we decided against selling. 
The longer you keep them though, the value only goes one way. 
 

[Ric Flair]

9 minutes ago, Viva said:

I was just making the point that there have been options to get rid of some of our deadwood. For whatever reason, we decided against selling. 
The longer you keep them though, the value only goes one way. 
 

Can't be many clubs who have failed to move on players worse than us in recent years except for allowing their contracts to be ran down. 

 

In fact it is beyond jaw dropping, in the last 5 years, we have managed to get a transfer fee for a fringe player or player we no longer wanted/contract expiring in less than a year only 4 times. FOUR!

 

Fousseni Diabate - £1.5m

Rachid Ghezzal - £3m

Demarai Gray - £2m

Kasper Schmeichal - £1m

 

If we want to be really generous then extend it to 6 as we sold Callum Elder to Hull and George Hirst to Ipswich but they weren't even 1st team players.

 

I'm actually speechless, I didn't realise it was that bad. There's been about triple that leave on free transfers and I think all this gets lost in the round of us having got huge fees for our best players, which has to be commended but also far easier to achieve. Our reputation in that regard is what makes it even more galling of our inability to move other players on and enable that flexibility to keep the conveyor belt going.

 

Just for context I have looked at rivals to us in terms of wage structure (West Ham and Everton) over the last 5 years and the amount of players they got a fee for that weren't their standout players is 17 SEVENTEEN West Ham (I excluded players I'd never heard of - likely academy players and their main players whom they didnt want to sell - the likes of Rice) and 11 ELEVEN Everton.

 

 

[dbtcity]

11 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Can't be many clubs who have failed to move on players worse than us in recent years except for allowing their contracts to be ran down. 

 

In fact it is beyond jaw dropping, in the last 5 years, we have managed to get a transfer fee for a fringe player or player we no longer wanted/contract expiring in less than a year only 4 times. FOUR!

 

Fousseni Diabate - £1.5m

Rachid Ghezzal - £3m

Demarai Gray - £2m

Kasper Schmeichal - £1m

 

If we want to be really generous then extend it to 6 as we sold Callum Elder to Hull and George Hirst to Ipswich but they weren't even 1st team players.

 

I'm actually speechless, I didn't realise it was that bad. There's been about triple that leave on free transfers and I think all this gets lost in the round of us having got huge fees for our best players, which has to be commended but also far easier to achieve. Our reputation in that regard is what makes it even more galling of our inability to move other players on and enable that flexibility to keep the conveyor belt going.

 

Just for context I have looked at rivals to us in terms of wage structure (West Ham and Everton) over the last 5 years and the amount of players they got a fee for that weren't their standout players is 17 SEVENTEEN West Ham (I excluded players I'd never heard of - likely academy players and their main players whom they didnt want to sell - the likes of Rice) and 11 ELEVEN Everton.

 

 

Surely Musa and Iborra fall in the 5 year bracket as well… still awful though

[Ric Flair]

Just now, dbtcity said:

Surely Musa and Iborra fall in the 5 year bracket as well… still awful though

Iborra was 5.5 years ago. I simply looked from summer of 2019/20, 2020/21, 2021/22, 2022/23 and up to start of 2023/24. 

 

Dread to think how many more West Ham, Everton and others will have sold if we go back further 😂😂😂

[sacreblueits442]

24 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Can't be many clubs who have failed to move on players worse than us in recent years except for allowing their contracts to be ran down. 

 

In fact it is beyond jaw dropping, in the last 5 years, we have managed to get a transfer fee for a fringe player or player we no longer wanted/contract expiring in less than a year only 4 times. FOUR!

 

Fousseni Diabate - £1.5m

Rachid Ghezzal - £3m

Demarai Gray - £2m

Kasper Schmeichal - £1m

 

If we want to be really generous then extend it to 6 as we sold Callum Elder to Hull and George Hirst to Ipswich but they weren't even 1st team players.

 

I'm actually speechless, I didn't realise it was that bad. There's been about triple that leave on free transfers and I think all this gets lost in the round of us having got huge fees for our best players, which has to be commended but also far easier to achieve. Our reputation in that regard is what makes it even more galling of our inability to move other players on and enable that flexibility to keep the conveyor belt going.

 

Just for context I have looked at rivals to us in terms of wage structure (West Ham and Everton) over the last 5 years and the amount of players they got a fee for that weren't their standout players is 17 SEVENTEEN West Ham (I excluded players I'd never heard of - likely academy players and their main players whom they didnt want to sell - the likes of Rice) and 11 ELEVEN Everton.

 

 

...enough proof that Rudkin overcompensates for his lack of negotiating skills by giving out overly expensive contracts!!!

Unfortunately, we then reap the burden of an administrator out of his depth and lacking the required knowledge in his field.

[Viva]

32 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Can't be many clubs who have failed to move on players worse than us in recent years except for allowing their contracts to be ran down. 

 

In fact it is beyond jaw dropping, in the last 5 years, we have managed to get a transfer fee for a fringe player or player we no longer wanted/contract expiring in less than a year only 4 times. FOUR!

 

Fousseni Diabate - £1.5m

Rachid Ghezzal - £3m

Demarai Gray - £2m

Kasper Schmeichal - £1m

 

If we want to be really generous then extend it to 6 as we sold Callum Elder to Hull and George Hirst to Ipswich but they weren't even 1st team players.

 

I'm actually speechless, I didn't realise it was that bad. There's been about triple that leave on free transfers and I think all this gets lost in the round of us having got huge fees for our best players, which has to be commended but also far easier to achieve. Our reputation in that regard is what makes it even more galling of our inability to move other players on and enable that flexibility to keep the conveyor belt going.

 

Just for context I have looked at rivals to us in terms of wage structure (West Ham and Everton) over the last 5 years and the amount of players they got a fee for that weren't their standout players is 17 SEVENTEEN West Ham (I excluded players I'd never heard of - likely academy players and their main players whom they didnt want to sell - the likes of Rice) and 11 ELEVEN Everton.

 

 

West Ham were prepared to take a loss on quite a few of those sales. Players can be sold for the right price even if on a high salary. You just have to be prepared to cut your losses on some players before their value sinks too much. 

[Ric Flair]

6 minutes ago, Viva said:

West Ham were prepared to take a loss on quite a few of those sales. Players can be sold for the right price even if on a high salary. You just have to be prepared to cut your losses on some players before their value sinks too much. 

We instead wait until they leave for free.

 

Another 10 more out of contract in 2024.

[bald reynard]

5 hours ago, Outfox the Fox said:

He is that elusive thing - a left footed right winger! 

 

I think this might be a goer - he was a West Ham Academy and U21 player, when Maresca was Coach there.

If Maresca saw him when he was developing into the good player West Ham had, he might believe some better Coaching could bring that out again. Obviously it all went a bit pear shaped at West Brom.

[Lambert09]

if you truly want to see how bad in the market we’ve been just look at how much more money southampton will make this window than us. 

 

When you consider we had 2 years back to back of europe and a fa cup, it’s unreal that southampton a team that struggled for years has more valuable assets then us 

[Gerard]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

Can't be many clubs who have failed to move on players worse than us in recent years except for allowing their contracts to be ran down. 

 

In fact it is beyond jaw dropping, in the last 5 years, we have managed to get a transfer fee for a fringe player or player we no longer wanted/contract expiring in less than a year only 4 times. FOUR!

 

Fousseni Diabate - £1.5m

Rachid Ghezzal - £3m

Demarai Gray - £2m

Kasper Schmeichal - £1m

 

If we want to be really generous then extend it to 6 as we sold Callum Elder to Hull and George Hirst to Ipswich but they weren't even 1st team players.

 

I'm actually speechless, I didn't realise it was that bad. There's been about triple that leave on free transfers and I think all this gets lost in the round of us having got huge fees for our best players, which has to be commended but also far easier to achieve. Our reputation in that regard is what makes it even more galling of our inability to move other players on and enable that flexibility to keep the conveyor belt going.

 

Just for context I have looked at rivals to us in terms of wage structure (West Ham and Everton) over the last 5 years and the amount of players they got a fee for that weren't their standout players is 17 SEVENTEEN West Ham (I excluded players I'd never heard of - likely academy players and their main players whom they didnt want to sell - the likes of Rice) and 11 ELEVEN Everton.

 

 

 

I've highlighted this a few times and this isn't the real problem, the real problem is we never sell players in the £10-£20m range. These would be players who weren't first XI but in and around that. The last time we sold a player in that range was Musa and if it wasn't for his World Cup he probably leaves on a free. We actually sold Musa five years ago today.

 

We just can't sell deadwood, even Slimani who cost £28m ends up out on loan doing quite well at Monaco but eventually going on a free. This is why one of my pet hates are people who aren't bothered by transfer fees because keep getting it wrong like we have and it eventually kills you. If you're not buying players at competitive prices that you can't shift on if it goes wrong then your toast. Too many times we can't shift players because they're overpaid and they don't want to take a cut. We had £10m offer for Vestergaard last year and he's rather kick his heels in the reserves. It's not just the transfer fee you lose but them seeing out their contract with no resale value.

[JimJams]

Basically we got carried away with the prospect of European football and tried to buy our way in by paying bigger fees and wages than we could manage in order to attract them. Which is fine if it works, horrendous when it doesn't. We gambled on it working out. We fxxked it. Don't gamble kids.

 

 

Except now. On a few prospects. LET IT RIDE!

[Gerard]

1 hour ago, Viva said:

West Ham were prepared to take a loss on quite a few of those sales. Players can be sold for the right price even if on a high salary. You just have to be prepared to cut your losses on some players before their value sinks too much. 

 

It's fine taking a loss on players who haven't made the grade, selling that £30m signing for £15m two years down the line. We don't do that, we'll invariably be stuck with them for another three years with £15m in wages and no transfer fee received. So it effectively costs us another £30m to have them on the bench for three years whereas West Ham in your example sell and save that £30m in wages and transfer fee.

[Bluearmyfox28]

Invest the money elsewhere. Use the money towards an offer to Cov for Hamer, I know he’s destined for the prem but no harm in trying.

 

After the signing of Mavididi, personally I want Rak-Sakyi and Palmer in on loan to make up the wingers.

[Viva]

6 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

It's fine taking a loss on players who haven't made the grade, selling that £30m signing for £15m two years down the line. We don't do that, we'll invariably be stuck with them for another three years with £15m in wages and no transfer fee received. So it effectively costs us another £30m to have them on the bench for three years whereas West Ham in your example sell and save that £30m in wages and transfer fee.

I fully I agree. I would be far more ruthless than we seem to be and get players out of the door quicker to save on wages and receive a fee, even if it’s less than we ideally want. 
I can’t believe we didn’t do that with Soumare when it was so clear he was miles off what we needed. 
Some people then bring up FFP and say it would be an accounting loss etc, so probably wouldn’t have much money to bring another player in. Well if we were that tight to the bone, then you sell a player for an accounting profit like Tielemans with only a year on his contract left and use that to get the replacements in. 

[Big Dave]

13 hours ago, Tuna said:

7 league goals in 3 seasons, mostly in the championship is honking. No.

Not quite his stats.

1 goal involvement (goal or assist) every 4 games. So over the course of a full season, roughly 11 goal involvements.

Recapture his 2019/20 form and there is a great player.

Edited 2 August 2023 by Big Dave

[Hamilton Fox]

7 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

It's fine taking a loss on players who haven't made the grade, selling that £30m signing for £15m two years down the line. We don't do that, we'll invariably be stuck with them for another three years with £15m in wages and no transfer fee received. So it effectively costs us another £30m to have them on the bench for three years whereas West Ham in your example sell and save that £30m in wages and transfer fee.

Perez and slimani are exact examples of this 

[Clever Fox]

All further evidence Rudkin is out of his dept.

 

Just move him sideways to look after the Racing interests  of KP and bring in a proper DOF.

[Collymore]

If you take Youri as a case study in regards to not selling at the right time and players running contract down the only positive I could see when this was happening was at least we would have him play for us for an extra one or two years.

 

Even that  perceived advantage turned into another contributor to relegation as he was the pits for the remainder of his contract. He took up a squad place and huge wage bill where if we had sold for £30m two years a go we would have blooded in some new talent probably worth £50m now and saved ourselves a wedge on lower wages.

 

How the club has handled contracts over the the last few years is utterly mind boggling. 

Edited 2 August 2023 by Collymore

[Outfox the Fox]

GD not going to happen if we get Rak-Sakyi. Both left footed right wingers.

Edited 2 August 2023 by Outfox the Fox

[JimJams]

So we don't need any depth then?

[An Sionnach]

12 minutes ago, JimJams said:

So we don't need any depth then?

You try and persuade players to come and sit on our bench , we will have enough dissatisfied players as it is , Souttar , Thomas , JJ etc. Depth for some players means no game time. Maresca is going to have to be good at player management to keep them happy.

[DezFox]

55 minutes ago, JimJams said:

So we don't need any depth then?

Surely the best way to build depth is to bring in a player that improves the first eleven. This way your depth is a player who is fighting for his first-team spot back and the further depth is an up-and-coming youngster that cost nothing and is hungrily fighting for more chances.  I feel we have bought nothing but quad fillers and depth for a while and it has stank the place out. 

[JimJams]

1 minute ago, DezFox said:

Surely the best way to build depth is to bring in a player that improves the first eleven. This way your depth is a player who is fighting for his first-team spot back and the further depth is an up-and-coming youngster that cost nothing and is hungrily fighting for more chances.  I feel we have bought nothing but quad fillers and depth for a while and it has stank the place out. 

Who said to bring in anybody that doesn't improve the first 11? 

If we're interested in Diangana it's presumably for the first 11. If we get RakSak maybe he'd also be in contention, but this is currently a spot in the team with no nailed on starter so it's not a case of saying we'd be bringing in players that aren't better than those already in the position. Right now there's nobody in it.

[DezFox]

5 minutes ago, JimJams said:

Who said to bring in anybody that doesn't improve the first 11? 

If we're interested in Diangana it's presumably for the first 11. If we get RakSak maybe he'd also be in contention, but this is currently a spot in the team with no nailed on starter so it's not a case of saying we'd be bringing in players that aren't better than those already in the position. Right now there's nobody in it.

for me this player for this price only adds to our problems, the fact we are discussing him as depth when we don't currently have anyone tells you everything. 

Edited 2 August 2023 by DezFox

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, DezFox said:

Surely the best way to build depth is to bring in a player that improves the first eleven. This way your depth is a player who is fighting for his first-team spot back and the further depth is an up-and-coming youngster that cost nothing and is hungrily fighting for more chances.  I feel we have bought nothing but quad fillers and depth for a while and it has stank the place out. 

Not so sure there is only one way to be honest, as many factors come into play

• Players who fit into a system required by the manager (Preferably the DoF is on board or guiding)
• Improving your first eleven is naturally costly, not something we are great at managing of late it seems
• Youngsters requires either a loan from EPL or a level of bravery (or perhaps financial flexibility) we currently seem to lack
• Experience is not a dirty word, we seem to think young is the only fit and it really isn`t, even though if you get it right you rewards are worthwhile