Also In The News - part 3

[MPH]

7 hours ago, Sampson said:

I’m conflicted. I’m still not convinced prison sentences in general aren’t barbaric and locking someone in a small area for the rest of their life just feels morally wrong regardless of what they’ve done and feels like a 19th century solution which feels archaic in the 21st century. I’m not sure if there are genuine alternatives though that aren’t even worse (like lobotomies and other immoral stuff they tried as alternatives to prison in the past). Feel like we haven’t really had any genuine public debate on the prison system since like the 1970s, so I’m genuinely interested in what alternatives people can offer in the 2020s, not advocating for anything, just genuinely interested at where the debate is.  

 

there’s a series on Netflix about the worlds toughest jails. Some quite harrowing but some very interesting concepts going on in Scandinavia where the emphasis is on rehabilitation and not punishment. Quite interesting. Massive drop in reoffending compared to ‘ normal’ jails.

[David Hankey]

8 hours ago, Sampson said:

I’m conflicted. I’m still not convinced prison sentences in general aren’t barbaric and locking someone in a small area for the rest of their life just feels morally wrong regardless of what they’ve done and feels like a 19th century solution which feels archaic in the 21st century. I’m not sure if there are genuine alternatives though that aren’t even worse (like lobotomies and other immoral stuff they tried as alternatives to prison in the past). Feel like we haven’t really had any genuine public debate on the prison system since like the 1970s, so I’m genuinely interested in what alternatives people can offer in the 2020s, not advocating for anything, just genuinely interested at where the debate is.  

Folk use very emotive language but believe you me you would think differently if you or your family were the victims of a horrible crime. It always amazes me that we often hear how overcrowded our prisons are but if these miscreants chose a crime-less life there would be no need to spend millions on new ones.

Edited 17 May by David Hankey

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, Spudulike said:

So it wasn't just civilians that Egypt and US were concerned about whilst trying to prevent the IDF from going into Rafah.

 

This is going to open a new chapter if it gets independently verified.

Seen a lot of this - you’d think that was a bit tin foil hat stuff 

I mean the Israelis prided themselves on knowing pretty much everything that was going on in Gaza.  Surely they would know - maybe they did and they’ve done this to try and draw the war to a close by actually cutting off hamas’ supply lines. Israel won’t want to lose their ‘peace’ with Egypt.  The issue would become huge if any hostages were removed into Egypt.   If sinwar/other top Hamas people have escaped there, i would think Israel probably calculated that was likely. 

[Spudulike]

8 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Seen a lot of this - you’d think that was a bit tin foil hat stuff 

I mean the Israelis prided themselves on knowing pretty much everything that was going on in Gaza.  Surely they would know - maybe they did and they’ve done this to try and draw the war to a close by actually cutting off hamas’ supply lines. Israel won’t want to lose their ‘peace’ with Egypt.  The issue would become huge if any hostages were removed into Egypt.   If sinwar/other top Hamas people have escaped there, i would think Israel probably calculated that was likely. 

A bit odd that none of the major TV news channels are reporting this.

[st albans fox]

32 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

A bit odd that none of the major TV news channels are reporting this.

No comment 

 

to be fair, I suspect they can’t get Palestinian journos into rafah as it’s an active zone and the area on the Egyptian side of the border is a restricted military zone.  Most of the stuff in the media nowadays has to come with video or photos 

[urban.spaceman]

Can you imagine the play-off final next week? The screen cuts to Sunak trying to make it look like he knows what's going on and 80,000 Leeds and Southampton fans (plus some players) boo the living shit out of Sunak. General election called the next morning.

 

[MPH]

3 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Can you imagine the play-off final next week? The screen cuts to Sunak trying to make it look like he knows what's going on and 80,000 Leeds and Southampton fans (plus some players) boo the living shit out of Sunak. General election called the next morning.

 

 

I remember many years ago there was a WWF tag team and, because of their name, they thought when the crown was booing them, they were actually cheering them on and they took it as a compliment. This is how I imagine Sunak to be..

[Wymsey]

39 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Can you imagine the play-off final next week? The screen cuts to Sunak trying to make it look like he knows what's going on and 80,000 Leeds and Southampton fans (plus some players) boo the living shit out of Sunak. General election called the next morning.

 

He does look very enthusiastic when tne screen is turned to him, to the extent that one wonders if it's staged as in he's trying to come across as very knowledgeable about the game and is an avid Saints fan.

[Daggers]

I too love soccer soccerball and am a massive fan of the Southampton Pompeys. 

[Daggers]

Oh dear. What a shame. Never mind. 
 

 

[Jon the Hat]

19 hours ago, Lionator said:

Personally, if you’re ‘standing up for oil and gas’ then you should be talked over regardless of your gender. 

Bad quote, she said she stands up for oil and gas workers.

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, Daggers said:

Oh dear. What a shame. Never mind. 
 

 

Couple of grand of council tax is it? Stop whinging woman, you’ve denied someone local a house for over a decade.

[Trav Le Bleu]

7 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Can you imagine the play-off final next week? The screen cuts to Sunak trying to make it look like he knows what's going on and 80,000 Leeds and Southampton fans (plus some players) boo the living shit out of Sunak. General election called the next morning.

 

You forgot the ref and assistant officials.

[Trav Le Bleu]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Couple of grand of council tax is it? Stop whinging woman, you’ve denied someone local a house for over a decade.

I sometimes worry Jon's going soft.

[Lionator]

5 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Bad quote, she said she stands up for oil and gas workers.

My bad, I’m another victim of the internet. 

[samlcfc]

On 17/05/2024 at 10:23, Sampson said:

Of course I understand that viewpoint from an emotional point of view but it implies humans have libertarian free will which I don’t believe they do. There are genuine cases where previously everyday people have committed heinous crimes that seemed to come from nowhere; then after they died they were found to have had brain tumours which pressed against their full frontal cortex and inhibited the chemical links to the emotional control part of their brain. I’m not sure how you can really account for that as I’m not convinced letting people like this rot in prison is a sign of a healthy modern society but maybe it’s collateral damage you just have to accept even if it’s an uncomfortable reality.
 

Of course we should protect people in society from those who commit heinous crimes and prison seems to work better than other systems we e tried but it’s still far from perfect and how and what happens to them should be guided by our growing understanding of how the human brain works but it’s one of those things its impossible for politicians to actually discuss because it’s such an emotionally charged topic. I’m not advocating for change and certainly not advocating for Pitchfork’s release, but I am interested in general scientific-led discussions in this area because it’s been decades since they’ve been genuinely had in the public sphere and our understanding of the human brain has grown so much since then.

 

17 hours ago, David Hankey said:

Folk use very emotive language but believe you me you would think differently if you or your family were the victims of a horrible crime. It always amazes me that we often hear how overcrowded our prisons are but if these miscreants chose a crime-less life there would be no need to spend millions on new ones.

 

This conversation gets so incredibly interesting and broad. 

 

Where we assume libertarian free will, it could be considered that whilst the emotional responses of victims are of course reasonable, it is the role of academics in society to look beyond the emotion and investigate the best way to deal with criminal behaviour in a way which is constructive to society as a whole.

 

In this respect, it could be considered that specific emotional responses are constructive where for example, it might reinforce societal norms and values. However, it could also be that these sorts of responses have been constructive in the past, but we may now have the capacity as a society to find even more constructive responses on which to progress.

 

Where the above is true, we could also imagine that where emotional responses are unavoidable and continue to serve a purpose for victims processing trauma, we have the organisation as a society to find even more effective ways for the victims of crime to be supported through that response and beyond in ways that weren't previously possible.

 

All of the above again, would somewhat be determined by the pursuit of creating the most comfortable environment for as many people as possible. Maybe this pursuit is underpinned by underlying ideologies and cultural values that may be subject to change across time?

 

If we're assuming a lack of free will and subscribe to determinism, we're all just on a conscious meat avatar ride through a world created through biological and unconscious psychological phenomena.

 

In this respect, we might feel a conflict between how we treat criminals when we understand that they are product of this phenomena. Beyond this though, the potential disconnect between academic perspectives and the actions of wider society and government would all be products of this deterministic reality.

 

Some of us might feel that the way criminals are treated is barbaric and others might feel the polar opposite with a spectrum of thoughts and feelings inbetween. Whilst feeling a purposeful capacity for change, in reality, I guess we'd all be essentially observers.

 

In a thousand years, society could look unrecognisable and there could still be people on the same ride through time and space, with a similar spectrum of feelings.

 

I note that the points raised above are not necessarily representative of my thoughts, but just conjecture (based on my knowledge at least) and a basic conversational outline. We kind of have to base ourselves in some sort of objective measured reality as humans, but its fun to look down the rabbit hole occasionally and the philosophy, theory and science of it goes much further in the hands of those who know what they're talking about with this topic.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 18 May by samlcfc

[Torquay Gunner]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

 

Many of these carers had no idea they were being overpaid.  Just another vulnerable section of society this despicable government wants to go after.   Meanwhile Sunak’s wealth rose by another £122m last year.  Welcome to the Twilight Zone! 

 

 

[Sampson]

1 hour ago, samlcfc said:

 

 

This conversation gets so incredibly interesting and broad. 

 

Where we assume libertarian free will, it could be considered that whilst the emotional responses of victims are of course reasonable, it is the role of academics in society to look beyond the emotion and investigate the best way to deal with criminal behaviour in a way which is constructive to society as a whole.

 

In this respect, it could be considered that specific emotional responses are constructive where for example, it might reinforce societal norms and values. However, it could also be that these sorts of responses have been constructive in the past, but we may now have the capacity as a society to find even more constructive responses on which to progress.

 

Where the above is true, we could also imagine that where emotional responses are unavoidable and continue to serve a purpose for victims processing trauma, we have the organisation as a society to find even more effective ways for the victims of crime to be supported through that response and beyond in ways that weren't previously possible.

 

All of the above again, would somewhat be determined by the pursuit of creating the most comfortable environment for as many people as possible. Maybe this pursuit is underpinned by underlying ideologies and cultural values that may be subject to change across time?

 

If we're assuming a lack of free will and subscribe to determinism, we're all just on a conscious meat avatar ride through a world created through biological and unconscious psychological phenomena.

 

In this respect, we might feel a conflict between how we treat criminals when we understand that they are product of this phenomena. Beyond this though, the potential disconnect between academic perspectives and the actions of wider society and government would all be products of this deterministic reality.

 

Some of us might feel that the way criminals are treated is barbaric and others might feel the polar opposite with a spectrum of thoughts and feelings inbetween. Whilst feeling a purposeful capacity for change, in reality, I guess we'd all be essentially observers.

 

In a thousand years, society could look unrecognisable and there could still be people on the same ride through time and space, with a similar spectrum of feelings.

 

I note that the points raised above are not necessarily representative of my thoughts, but just conjecture (based on my knowledge at least) and a basic conversational outline. We kind of have to base ourselves in some sort of objective measured reality as humans, but its fun to look down the rabbit hole occasionally and the philosophy, theory and science of it goes much further in the hands of those who know what they're talking about with this topic.

 

 

 

 

 

Side point just for clarification, but my very uneducated understanding is our best but still well incomplete understanding of the universe in a that it is just random dice rolls of different probability at the quantum level and therefore the universe would be neither deterministic nor would we have libertarian free will (happy to be put right here as I’m no expert). As you say, my belief is that we are all just bags of meat and our brains just fire off neurons based on random rolls of dice of different probability based our dna (which itself came to be through an absurd number of dice rolls over billions of years) and our outside environment (which itself also came to be through an absurd number of dice rolls over billions of years).

 

If you could turn back time 5 seconds to before you made a decision whether or not that decision could be made differently is one question but whether the human brain could somehow override its biology to *cause* that decision to be different and it’s not just a weighted dice of probability being rolled on how the quarks which make up your brain matter spin (and ultimately how the neurons in our brain fire) and therefore just being a different random occurrence is another. 

Edited 18 May by Sampson

[Jon the Hat]

10 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I sometimes worry Jon's going soft.

Ha, I’ve long had sympathy for people trying to live in holiday destinations. 

[Daggers]

 

[Bellend Sebastian]

43 minutes ago, Daggers said:

 

I'm not sure what's more depressing - that this was said in the first place, or that there's an audience that will hear this analogy and say yes this is correct and makes sense

 

 

 

 

[Zear0]

1 hour ago, Daggers said:

 

Not the best analogy if the host was saying he was the defending team in Normandy. 

[Trav Le Bleu]

Surely it's just hyperbole?

 

Or too soon?

[urban.spaceman]

Helicopter in a convoy carrying the Iranian President has crashed. Could have massive consequences. 

[foxy boxing]

2 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Helicopter in a convoy carrying the Iranian President has crashed. Could have massive consequences. 

Crashed or Israeli involvement ,