Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Countryfox]

7 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

Wouldn't be surprised at the very least if Russia were trying to get involved in this type of political debate at the time of voting..

 

What !!! ....  are you saying that Putin cvnt could be involved and trying to destabilise the West !!!        You’ll be telling me next it was him behind the poisoning of those Russians in Salisbury ...     

 

Get real Wymes ....     

[Mike Oxlong]

[Countryfox]

2 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

 

[Guest MattP]

59 minutes ago, FoxNotFox said:

She is (or can be) a very impressive speaker. Fwiw, I believe that she truly believes she's doing the right thing. I think she is trying, to the best of her interpretation and abilities, to deliver 'the will of the people' whilst balancing that with the needs of business, fisheries, agriculture, other bodies, etc. It wasn't so much a speech as (Churchillian?) rallying cry. A call for people to get behind what's she's done and believes in. I reckon she's genuine in that.

 

I'm not sure how many people it'll convince though because too many people are opposed (for differing reasons) to aspects of this draft agreement. It's was perhaps inevitable that Brexit would descend into this mess because people were so divided to begin with; there was no clear definition of terms and nobody has ever tried to untangle and declare what 'Brexit' actually entailed. Things have just progressed on (more-or-less) assumptions led by a trust in May whilst she has largely kept people in the dark.

 

I wish people (across the spectrum; Corbyn does it too, not just May) would not take this dogmatic approach, this line in the sand, to a second referendum. May is proposing a less than ideal deal because she believes it to be better than no deal, fair enough - but she's doing that on the basis of her interpretation of the people's wishes. She seems to have designated herself as the protector of 'the will of the people' - and I'm almost fine with that. As leader (unelected, I might add!) it fell to her to do that. She picked up that ball and ran with it, doggedly so. 

 

May is convinced of her interpretation, that it still holds true and she feels she has to now follow through on it, unchecked, whilst it's abundantly clear that the path she's proposing isn't supported by a huge number of MPs  That doesn't make sense to me and I don't think it's prudent - it's a hugely important step to take, one which will impact on generations of people. May be could now to double check, she doesn't need to be dogmatic. Put the question back to the people - make sure that it is STILL the will of the people. Cripes, with many contracts you get a cooling-off period. Why not with something this important? It's not voting until you get the answer you want, it's making absolutely damned sure before you commit. 

 

That referendum 2 years ago was perhaps mislabelled (by Cameron) It was perhaps more of a 'call for tender' (if I can put it like that) A request for information - get some due diligence done. It rightly kicked off an investigative process. That process hasn't gone well (because its terms of reference where not properly defined) but May's done all that can be expected of her, she can sign it off as job done, report delivered. Now put the options to the people - the will for a hard Brexit might be there for all I know. 

Nice post, enjoyed reading it and some good points made. Stick around if you can.

 

May is democratically elected though, she called an election and managed to form a coalition from that result, Corbyn will be the same if it happens to him, unusual here but very normal on the continent.

 

On the point of a second referendum, for the first time I do believe it's possible, but the route to it is lengthy. There is just no way a Conservative PM can touch this given the membership and voting base is Eurosceptic, they could never agree to it under any circumstance.

 

So you need no confidence vote - Labour elected - Labour deal fails - second referendum. Even then it's possible Corbyn and McDonnell would go for the Norway option to get them out of a hole.

[BlueSi13]

1 hour ago, Bryn said:

 

Just read this, what a crock of shit. There is no compromise on leaving the EU that suits 48% of British people who voted to remain. Whatever agreement is struck is unlikely to suit more than that many people who voted leave. We shouldn't be leaving.

Oh really?  So what do you think the May/Robbins deal represents, Hard-Brexit?  Soft-Brexit?  Or BRINO?

 

Soft-Brexit and BRINO was only ever pushed by those that voted Remain in the referendum as a way of "respecting the wishes of the 48%".

 

I'd just be interested to hear what Remain would look like if the vote went the other way.  

 

I'd bet everything I have May/Cameron/Robbins/Hammond/The Civil Service would not be entertaining the idea of Soft-Remain or RINO.

[TheUltimateWinner]

Anyone think this could all die down, get voted through as it’s the best we’ve got and then the next general election/leadership elections will be based on renegotiating?

[simFox]

1 hour ago, lifted*fox said:

There is clear reason to believe that the original vote was tampered with and influenced by outside money and interference. It should be void. 

 

There is mounting evidence to suggest the people want another say on the available options. 

 

There should be a mandatory vote for everyone in the UK that is eligible after a clear presentation of the current FACTS. Those facts should be presented by an independant source that is neither funded nor in the pocket of the government like most of the think-tanks / news outlets. 

 

Everything up to this point has been nothing but a show and a farce. Its absolutely ****ing disgusting that the UK has been pulled apart like this on a bed of lies. 

What facts are they then?

 

All you'll get is more lies and scaremongering on both sides, just like last time. Already the world is going to end if there is no deal, sound familiar? The pro deal businesses are already threatening to leave the UK, again. Last time they threatened before the referendum was the euro.

 

Another referendum will be a massive disaster, but it will be a leave landslide, the silent majority will be back out. Because a no deal Brexit is absolutely fine.

 

Short term pain, for long term gain. Then watch Italy/EU fallout with their new budget and lack of our support.

[Guest MattP]

Couple of stray observations. 

 

Very smart by May to do that 5pm press conference - ensures the 6pm and 10pm news slots are of her looking Prime Ministerial rather than being savaged by everyone in the house.

 

Given we've heard nothing from Graham Brady/1922 committee - have they still not got the numbers? If so miscalculation from Brexiteers.

[Lionator]

54 minutes ago, TheUltimateWinner said:

Anyone think this could all die down, get voted through as it’s the best we’ve got and then the next general election/leadership elections will be based on renegotiating?

Honestly, right now I feel this could be the right option. A lot of my remain supporting mates are begging for a second referendum and yes in an ideal world I would like that but I just don't think it's democratically possible. Better options would be for parliament to cancel it completely (won't happen) or we go with it then if it a total disaster we re-assess 5 years down the line. 

 

As for Theresa May, she's a sacrificial lamb, there is no way as soon as she lost her majority that she could come out of this looking good.

 

I also really wish Keir Starmer was leading the Labour Party, I think he'll be pretty much the only person to emerge from this debacle positively. 

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

 

On the point of a second referendum, for the first time I do believe it's possible, but the route to it is lengthy. There is just no way a Conservative PM can touch this given the membership and voting base is Eurosceptic, they could never agree to it under any circumstance.

 

So you need no confidence vote - Labour elected - Labour deal fails - second referendum. Even then it's possible Corbyn and McDonnell would go for the Norway option to get them out of a hole.

 

I'm not well-informed about parliamentary procedure, but possibly a quicker route to a second referendum......  ?

- May's deal defeated - Labour no-confidence vote defeated (Tories/DUP don't want election) - motion/amendment for 2nd referendum passed with support of Tory Remainers/Pragmatists who want to avoid No Deal ???

(All this might depend on the Speaker's rulings on what is permissible - and on the legal case before the ECJ and the willingness of the EU27 to allow the Article 50 extension that would probably be needed)

 

[Claridge]

44 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Honestly, right now I feel this could be the right option. A lot of my remain supporting mates are begging for a second referendum and yes in an ideal world I would like that but I just don't think it's democratically possible. Better options would be for parliament to cancel it completely (won't happen) or we go with it then if it a total disaster we re-assess 5 years down the line. 

 

As for Theresa May, she's a sacrificial lamb, there is no way as soon as she lost her majority that she could come out of this looking good.

 

I also really wish Keir Starmer was leading the Labour Party, I think he'll be pretty much the only person to emerge from this debacle positively. 

He was useless on the Today programme this morning,comes across as a right slimeball to me. But everyone has their own opinions

 

[Dr The Singh]

Dianne Abbott is the only person I can see leading the nation 

[davieG]

8 minutes ago, Claridge said:

He was useless on the Today programme this morning,comes across as a right slimeball to me. But everyone has their own opinions

 

Some people just have an untrustworthy face.

[Smudge]

Can I ask a question to those who supported Brexit, what is wrong with the draft deal?

[Paninistickers]

10 hours ago, Lionator said:

Honestly, right now I feel this could be the right option. A lot of my remain supporting mates are begging for a second referendum and yes in an ideal world I would like that but I just don't think it's democratically possible. Better options would be for parliament to cancel it completely (won't happen) or we go with it then if it a total disaster we re-assess 5 years down the line. 

 

As for Theresa May, she's a sacrificial lamb, there is no way as soon as she lost her majority that she could come out of this looking good.

 

I also really wish Keir Starmer was leading the Labour Party, I think he'll be pretty much the only person to emerge from this debacle positively. 

Starmer is the type of moderate guy you want to like, but his content is poor. Feeble, even.

 

This should perhaps go in the unpopular opinions you hold thread, but this generation's labour heavyweight for me was Ed Milliband. But The Sun didn't like him eating a bacon sandwich, so that was the end of that.

[Lionator]

20 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Starmer is the type of moderate guy you want to like, but his content is poor. Feeble, even.

 

This should perhaps go in the unpopular opinions you hold thread, but this generation's labour heavyweight for me was Ed Milliband. But The Sun didn't like him eating a bacon sandwich, so that was the end of that.

Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband - David Cameron, 4th May, 2015 

HA, that worked out well. Where would we be if Ed had won?

[Jon the Hat]

8 hours ago, Smudge said:

Can I ask a question to those who supported Brexit, what is wrong with the draft deal?

It is an interim arrangement which leaves us in the customs union and hence under EU regulatory control but without any power over those regulations, under the jurisdiction of and under the ECJ and without the unilateral power to end any of those circumstances.  Essentially we still have all the negatives without a seat at the table.  Pathetic really.

[Buce]

On 15/11/2018 at 04:26, ozleicester said:

Can anyone sum up in a paragraph what this all means. (I have chosen not to follow brexit as it seemed to be something that you need to be fully involved with to understand.)

 

2

 

Two years ago Britain walked out on a long marriage to the EU. The EU just didn’t understand Britain. Free at last, Britain would hook up with younger, fitter models around the world. Yesterday, Britain got shown into the shabby new bedsit. On the single bed was a box with lawyer’s bills, a maintenance agreement and an unfavourable custody arrangement.

Edited 16 November 2018 by Buce

[Buce]

12 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Wow.  The UK has been and will be around a lot longer than the EU that is for sure.  Feel free to **** off to the EU now if you think it is so wonderful.  Jesus.

 

Says the man who's fvcking off to Australia.

 

[Guest MattP]

11 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

I'm not well-informed about parliamentary procedure, but possibly a quicker route to a second referendum......  ?

- May's deal defeated - Labour no-confidence vote defeated (Tories/DUP don't want election) - motion/amendment for 2nd referendum passed with support of Tory Remainers/Pragmatists who want to avoid No Deal ???

(All this might depend on the Speaker's rulings on what is permissible - and on the legal case before the ECJ and the willingness of the EU27 to allow the Article 50 extension that would probably be needed)

You would surely only have 15 Tory MP's at the most who would vote for that? The DUP wouldn't, Labour Brexiteers wouldn't. 

 

Given the constituencies they hold it would surely scare about 70-80 Labour backbenchers as well.

 

Don't real see how it could command a majority and I doubt either side would want to put it forward to the house.

[Buce]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

You would surely only have 15 Tory MP's at the most who would vote for that? The DUP wouldn't, Labour Brexiteers wouldn't. 

 

Given the constituencies they hold it would surely scare about 70-80 Labour backbenchers as well.

 

Don't real see how it could command a majority and I doubt either side would want to put it forward to the house.

2

 

Polls suggest that there is now a majority for Remain in every Labour seat.

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, Buce said:

Polls suggest that there is now a majority for Remain in every Labour seat.

Sorry you seriously telling me places like Bolsover are now Remain?

 

That's complete utter nonsense.

 

Let's see this poll then.

Edited 16 November 2018 by MattP

[Izzy]

Brexit really does bring out the worst in people. 

 

Normally thoroughly decent Leicester fans who'd happily share a beer before the game, end up slagging each other off and falling out on here over it.

 

What a shame.

[Buce]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Sorry you seriously telling me places like Bolsover are now Remain?

 

That's complete utter nonsense.

 

Let's see this poll then.

 

I linked it weeks ago for... I forget his name, the idiot Tory who lives in Stoke.

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Buce said:

I linked it weeks ago for... I forget his name, the idiot Tory who lives in Stoke.

I read that - it was a poll that said they all wanted a people's vote, and by amazing coincidence - the poll was commissioned by the people's vote campaign. 

 

As I said at the time - at no point in it did it claim there was a majority for Remain, it claimed it had a majority for a second referendum, which was hardly surprising given how the question was worded.