VAR Issues

[Babylon]

10 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

2 big issues I have with it so far

 

1) the amount of time it took to get the correct decision.  Last night, having watched the replays when I got home, in normal time it was a close call.  When the replays slowed it down it was a clear decision to make.  I was sat right at the back of the south stand last night, by the TV studio in the corner.  I could see very early on that it was a goal on the screens in there, but it still took a seemingly considerable amount of time for it to be awarded.  If a decision as clear cut as that can take that long what's it going to take when the decision is still debatable?

If you're the one responsible for the call, then you're going to triple check things. Easy for us sat at home to say it's a goal when we're not up for national ridicule if we're wrong.

 

10 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

There will be a case when someone argues that the VAR should be used in the build up to a goal.  There'll be a dodgy handball not given or a winger letting the ball run just out of play in the build up to a goal scored 30 seconds later and some plank will mention using VAR is those instances. Which will be a fair argument to an extent.  A game changing incident doesn't just have to be something that happens in the box.

There will have to be boundaries and it's going to take time to fine tune the issues. In rugby the ref specifically asks for the video ref to check certain things if THEY think it was a close call somewhere in the move. It works there because the players know their boundaries and wouldn't rush the ref trying to get him to check x, y, z... here you'll players in his face telling him to check this that and the other and that's what worries me.

[Guest]

I thought it worked okay last night despite previously having concerns.

[turtmcfly]

2 minutes ago, Babylon said:

If you're the one responsible for the call, then you're going to triple check things. Easy for us sat at home to say it's a goal when we're not up for national ridicule if we're wrong.

Especially given the uniqueness of  the situation. It's taken a long time and a lot of persuasion to get this far - imagine if the first ever 'VAR goal' had been suspect. 

[Dawko]

This is going to cause way too much emotional turmoil for both the fans and the players.

It's a goal - Hooray, it's been disallowed - Boo, it's gone to var - Hooray, it's disallowed again - Boo

 

[Mrfox452]

13 hours ago, gw_leics772 said:

The biggest issue for me was middle aged men behind me chanting var. From that point on it can **** right off.

 

And even the goal. What an anti climactic way to win a game.

 

World's gone mad.

Personally that's the biggest issue I have with var, it kills so much of the raw emotion when celebrating.

 

Without var yesterday personally i wouldn't have been to angry/disappointed at the linesmen as I appreciate it was a tough call.

 

Also at the end of the day with var you will still have correct decisions but there will still be decisions that cost you points...exactly how it is now!

[Ted Maul]

45 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Image how frustratign it would be if Kane scores and offside goal (again), but it can't be overruled because he's only half a foot offside.

 suppose it works both ways. You would just get used to the rule change though, much like we have since the 'clear daylight' era.

[desertfox2]

It will probably speed up which will make it a lot better. But a step in the right direction. Just too much at stake now.

[fuchsntf]

Oh dear.oh dear..!!!

You know what...Football gets top spot once again....

whiners, moaners, nothing is good enough...

I for one,   great idea!!  Its 10yrs too late, but it brings us up to speed.

Rugby..it works.  reckless, sometimes downright evil tackles, during/after event,

whos hard but fair, who is just a continual downright bastard...

Obviously there are tv angles that cant prove zit   (not all touchdowns can be seen)

( but shows fans how difficult any given issue is). Educational from various angles.

So 20% descisions still wrong, hey-ho  80% right...

 

Wasting time...what a load of codswallop!!!!..football wasting time.!.players diving,

players, arguing 1-3 minutes long with the ref/linesman, even after red card...

Managers being sent to the stands.Players jostling refs 20 secs to a 2 minute verbal

blast, Xtimes in a single game.

The most whining blaming, not my fault cheating game ever.

Post match interviews..managers nagging.Vars will show them up.

ffs Rosler yesterday, didnt

say one good thing about his brave team, didnt mention his players!!!

Cryed about Vars, when it was proved correct..!!!!

Football, fans, managers...bias media created in the last 40yrs a blame

platform. Vars wont collapse it, but will ease it and arrest it.

plus adds to the entertainment...

 

Now fking discuss...

 I am a good boy...

 

[TheUltimateWinner]

Last night was the first time it had to be properly used in English football

 

If I was judging the call I'd check, double check and triple check to make sure it's right, as if they got it wrong it could probably have pushed VAR back another few years with the backlash.

 

Over time it will become more seamless.

[KrefelderFox666]

2 hours ago, Ted Maul said:

I'm not sure I agree with that. On that basis, if you're driving at 31 MPH in a 30 area, you're speeding and should be penalised. In reality, that would be incredibly pedantic and the law gives motorists a little leeway- I think new offside rules should do similar for attackers. 

 

The rule has changed so much over the years anyway, I think they will tweak it in some ways when VAR is introduced properly. Your toe being beyond the last defender doesn't exactly give you a massive advantage, and goals being disallowed for that just seems silly to me.

That's like saying if I owed a stranger £40 then £35 will do. Can't compare speeding to the offside rule.

[Wymsey]

Thinking about cost to install and execute on matchdays, some of the lower league sides may not be able to afford this and that may well frustrate them in the future if games are going against them due to controversial decisions that have led to VAR to be trialled out now.

[Ted Maul]

6 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

That's like saying if I owed a stranger £40 then £35 will do. Can't compare speeding to the offside rule.

I'd describe it more as owing someone £40.32 and them saying £40 will do. It would mean a fundamental change to the law though, like when they introduced then removed the clear daylight rule, but it would just become the norm in the end.

 

It's just an idea anyway- they've introduced it in cricket. Their 'umpire's call' system is designed so the authority of the umpire isn't undermined unless they've made a truly bad decision. It seems to work well, and I wouldn't mind something similar in football. There's no point the linesman being there if every decision is referred to VAR with no ambiguity on his decision.

[yorkie1999]

23 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

Thinking about cost to install and execute on matchdays, some of the lower league sides may not be able to afford this and that may well frustrate them in the future if games are going against them due to controversial decisions that have led to VAR to be trialled out now.

How does it actually work though. There's not a camera tracking up and down the pitch, so how do they get a picture dead in line. and where can i apply for a job as a VAR operator.

Edited 17 January 2018 by yorkie1999

[purpleronnie]

Excuse my ignorance about VAR, but if a linesman flags for offside and the ref blows his whistle but the forward shoots and scores would the ref never than look at VAR? 

 

[KrefelderFox666]

30 minutes ago, Ted Maul said:

I'd describe it more as owing someone £40.32 and them saying £40 will do. It would mean a fundamental change to the law though, like when they introduced then removed the clear daylight rule, but it would just become the norm in the end.

 

It's just an idea anyway- they've introduced it in cricket. Their 'umpire's call' system is designed so the authority of the umpire isn't undermined unless they've made a truly bad decision. It seems to work well, and I wouldn't mind something similar in football. There's no point the linesman being there if every decision is referred to VAR with no ambiguity on his decision.

Yes, I think the principle is that refs/officials carry on as normal and the VAR only interrupts when a clear mistake is made, or they have doubt that the correct call was made. Very difficult to get perfect or even close, offside is the simplest one and even that has questions to answer.

[filbertway]

27 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

Excuse my ignorance about VAR, but if a linesman flags for offside and the ref blows his whistle but the forward shoots and scores would the ref never than look at VAR? 

 

Yeah in that case the referee's whistle has stopped play, so anything after that is irrelevant till the restart.

[jammie82uk]

33 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

Excuse my ignorance about VAR, but if a linesman flags for offside and the ref blows his whistle but the forward shoots and scores would the ref never than look at VAR? 

 

 

5 minutes ago, filbertway said:

Yeah in that case the referee's whistle has stopped play, so anything after that is irrelevant till the restart.

 

I’m not 100% on this as I didn’t hear a whistle myself while at the ground last night but didn’t that exact scenario happen for the second goal 

 

 

[SCP4Ever]

7 hours ago, Super_horns said:

Wenger will probably still claim he didn't see certain incidents (depending on which way it goes)!

 

Marco Silva would probably be out of a job if VAR had been in place for our game on Saturday....

....

A perfect example of where VAR would work - enough time was spent with the Southampton players complaining (rightly as it proved) so any delay would be covered.

 

Ok might get out of hand on occasions but better to be totally right than wrong just because it took too long to use VAR?

 

The only issue is when managers and players start demanding it being used for the minor things like throw ins!

As a Sporting fan, you have my sympathies for your marco silva woes.

As for people demanding reviews, it'll stop once everyone is clear about what can and cannot be called by the VAR

 

7 hours ago, Ricey said:

The problem with VAR is that it will get to the stage when players and fans will be so paranoid about it that most goals won't be celebrated when they go in. There will be half-hearted celebrations until everyone knows for certain that that VAR has given the goal. Seeing as most goals have some kind of contentious issue in the build-up, this is going kill the single best thing about watching football.

It's not that bad. The number of VAR interventions in a game is relatively small. Sure, there might be a game with abnormal situations, but most of times it's pretty straight forward. 
Since we here in Portugal have had this since the beginning of the season, we've had a lot more experience with it. I've had disalowed goals given, illegal goals taken away and illegal goals scored against us overruled as well. I enjoy the game the same as I did before, perhaps a bit more comfortable in the knowledge that gross mistakes won't cost or award me points.

 

 

7 hours ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

Not read every comment on here so sorry if I repeat something. Here is my view:

 

1. VAR is great because it will help referees when they make a wrong decision and enable the game to be fairer

2. The referees decision stands unless the VAR has a strong belief that the referee may have made a mistake

3. Offside goals will be fairly straight forward to say yes or no but of course there is the problem of when does the ref blow for offside (i.e. is the attack stopped and the team prevented from scoring) - will referees if in doubt now not give offside and then review later

4. Penalties and red cards are down to the interpretation of the law and so naturally difficult to decide. Three different referees may have three different views

 

Overall I think VAR benefits the game, technology is there so use it.

2. The referee's decision ALWAYS stands. What happens is the VAR informs him if he knows or thinks that the ref made a bad call. In some situations, the referee can simply accept the information given to him by the VAR and proceed accordingly, or he can check on a monitor on the sidelines for himself. But it's always the referee's decision.

3. If the whistle is blown, that's it. VAR doesn't intervene on offsides.

4. Correct. But it's one more pair of eyes, with access to a lot more information. Plus, since the referee can check the images too, it gives him that information too, so that he can decide better. But you're right, it will be down to interpretation. As long as the referees and VARs are consistent in their calls, it should be fine. But if intensity and interpretation also depend on the colour of the jersey, we have a problem.

Like in this case: http://www.dw.com/en/dfb-part-ways-with-var-project-manager-hellmut-krug/a-41261100

 

6 hours ago, David Hankey said:

If you're offside, whether it's an inch or a yard, you're offside. The thing I'm most concerned is the amount of interruption there will be or will it be a case each side is only allowed so many appeals per game?

The reviews are not for or against anyone. Specific types of plays are watched for, and if any irregularity is spotted by the VAR, he can call on the referee with that information WHILE THE GAME IS STOPPED. Once play resumes, it's no longer valid.

As for the offsides, this isn't meant to force people into spotting minuscule distances. It's designed to remove gross mistakes, meaning easy to spot offsides when you slow down the footage or even pause the image.

 

5 hours ago, Jimbo said:

1) the amount of time it took to get the correct decision.  Last night, having watched the replays when I got home, in normal time it was a close call.  When the replays slowed it down it was a clear decision to make.  I was sat right at the back of the south stand last night, by the TV studio in the corner.  I could see very early on that it was a goal on the screens in there, but it still took a seemingly considerable amount of time for it to be awarded.  If a decision as clear cut as that can take that long what's it going to take when the decision is still debatable?

 

2) how are the FA going to play this out?  Let play run and then check?  If the ref blows the whistle and everyone stops then the goal cannot be awarded.  It works in rugby, which is a fairly stop/start game because they let the play run and go back to check after a try is scored.  You can't do that in football.

 

If/when it becomes a full time fixture in the sport there's going to be just as many arguments about it as there are refereeing decisions now.

 

There will be a case when someone argues that the VAR should be used in the build up to a goal.  There'll be a dodgy handball not given or a winger letting the ball run just out of play in the build up to a goal scored 30 seconds later and some plank will mention using VAR is those instances. Which will be a fair argument to an extent.  A game changing incident doesn't just have to be something that happens in the box.

 

Just don't have it and leave the game as it.  You'll have players in a few years in the refs ear at every decision asking him to check it

1) That´s mostly down to experience. It's more streamlined here now, but there's still things to work on and improve. It's a new tool at their disposal, new protocols, new communications, etc. It'll get much better.

 

2) The FA has specific guidelines given to the by the International Board. There's also recommendations on how to better use the VAR now, like on the offside. It's not a rule (yet. It might be in the future) to let play proceed when in doubt about an offside, but it's recommended, because VAR doesn't review offsides, but they do review all goals. So if a goal was illegal, it can be disallowed, but a wrong offside cannot be overturned. Like you pointed out, if the ref spots play, but the ball still goes in, it doesn't count, even if it was stopped unjustly.

 

As it stands now, the entire play building up to the goal is reviewed. I pasted a link to a youtube video for a VAR call on the Holland super cup, you should check it to get an idea of how it works.

 

2 hours ago, jammie82uk said:

I’m not 100% on this as I didn’t hear a whistle myself while at the ground last night but didn’t that exact scenario happen for the second goal 

If the whistle goes, that's it. The VAR cannot intervere. From what I saw, I think he disallowed the goal after it went in, he didn't stop the play before.

[gw_leics772]

5 hours ago, Mrfox452 said:

Personally that's the biggest issue I have with var, it kills so much of the raw emotion when celebrating.

 

Without var yesterday personally i wouldn't have been to angry/disappointed at the linesmen as I appreciate it was a tough call.

 

Also at the end of the day with var you will still have correct decisions but there will still be decisions that cost you points...exactly how it is now!

You are of course right and I wouldn' have lost too much sleep myself either.

 

BUT...

 

The single biggest issue is definitely the middle aged men chanting var at random intervals. People are summarising the main points and getting hung up on trivialities like goals and stoppages, but if you sat qwhere I did the main worry was definitely working out how to make murder look like an accident. 

 

I might have to leave this thread until people have experienced this atrocity first hand. (Either that or when news of a tragic accident  occurs in the ground and I need help removing these posts (Just in case))

 

[Chester Dontlie]

When the steam trains started to replace horse carts there was a bit of moaning about the 'progress' too. No doubt it killed all the romanticism of the travel in many passengers' eyes... The colourful muddy randomness of country roads was substituted for the predictable boredom of rails. The delicate yet invigorating smell of manure substituted for the choking stench of locomotive fumes... The devoted horse cart travel conaisseurs must've thought 'What's the world coming to?' 

[Bluetintedspecs]

28 minutes ago, gw_leics772 said:

You are of course right and I wouldn' have lost too much sleep myself either.

 

BUT...

 

The single biggest issue is definitely the middle aged men chanting var at random intervals. People are summarising the main points and getting hung up on trivialities like goals and stoppages, but if you sat qwhere I did the main worry was definitely working out how to make murder look like an accident. 

 

I might have to leave this thread until people have experienced this atrocity first hand. (Either that or when news of a tragic accident  occurs in the ground and I need help removing these posts (Just in case))

 

Please elaborate why it would be 'middle aged men' randomly chanting VAR ? Ridiculous point but funny ?

 

[foxinsocks]

21 minutes ago, Chester Dontlie said:

When the steam trains started to replace horse carts there was a bit of moaning about the 'progress' too. No doubt it killed all the romanticism of the travel in many passengers' eyes... The colourful muddy randomness of country roads was substituted for the predictable boredom of rails. The delicate yet invigorating smell of manure substituted for the choking stench of locomotive fumes... The devoted horse cart travel conaisseurs must've thought 'What's the world coming to?' 

when Stevenson demo-ed the first train some MP ran in front of it to talk to his mate and got killed - he'd never seen anything go that fast... MPs are still very think and seeped in the past.

[winteriscoming]

Don't know whether it's been mentioned but there is also the problem of having 3 refs needed in 1 game. I'd imagine the stats are there aren't a great demand of top officals out there. I just think it may cause more problems than it actually solves. 

[foxinsocks]

I wish we had a VAR to monitor the quality of bar service in B3... it takes and age to pour a perfectly flat pint of singha

Edited 17 January 2018 by foxinsocks

[Bluetintedspecs]

17 minutes ago, foxinsocks said:

I wish we had a VAR to monitor the quality of bar service in B3... it takes and age to pour a perfectly flat pint of singha

And you pay £4.00ish for that dubious privilege ?