The VAR thread

[ThaiFox]

On 13/08/2019 at 18:36, Facecloth said:

Not his biggest fan, but he's spot on here. Your unquestionable technology is questionable, because it's still controlled by man.

 

 

This is exactly why I loathe VAR.

 

There will be just as many (if not more) controversial decisions as before.....so what is the point?

 

Not that I can watch it out here, but I'd bet MOTD will be showing and discussing more VAR decisions than actual match highlights!

 

[Shmokeee]

I have a cunning plan....

let the game continue as before with the ref calling the shots, with VAR working behind the scenes with absolutely no communication with the ref whatsoever.

Celebrate the goals as they should be celebrated, with wild abandonment, go nuts.

Then at full time, an allowance of 5 minutes to sort the mistakes made and VAR appears on the big screens....

It will then inform you all of the disallowed goals, could even award a penalty still.

Sounds far out, I know.

But it allows the game to flow, all errors are still corrected and the best part is you could be 4-2 down at full time and still win.

Missed red cards is an awkward one as the opposition would not gain any advantage but this isn’t that common.

Offsides/onsides will be the same as 

now with the 50/50s allowed to stand.

 

I know what your thinking.

And yes I should work for the FA

[Paninistickers]

On 14/08/2019 at 07:33, st albans fox said:

The goal celebration thing was my biggest concern at the outset ages ago

 

i haven’t seen anything in great depth from the continent about this so I assumed it hadn’t become the issue I expected It to

 

i would have thought the system could be tweaked so that one of the var officials could immediately say to the on field officials that they noticed something that needs looking at (we may need to increase the number of officials in Stockley park so that one is looking solely at a side view re offside, one at the grappling in the box, one only at the ball re handball in order that the lino is told straight away if one has seen something and the var ref needs to look further) in which case the lino could raise his flag. That was always the dreaded signal that something is amiss and stifled the celebrations. at the moment every goal is checked and the way it works is that everyone believes those officials are looking for a reason to disallow the goal for thirty seconds or so. if we have that flag going up within a couple  seconds then we know to stifle the going mad bit.  It really wouldn’t be that often I reckon.  When you watch a game on the telly, you always have an inkling there is a problem and you aren’t looking specifically at one thing as the var officials would be. 

 

We we will get there but some of the laws need more work to reflect var scrutiny aswell. 

My reactions have always been razor sharp for goals ....within milliseconds I've checked the ref point his him to the centre circle and/or,  if a hint of offside,  that the linesman is running with purpose, flag down towards the centre. Oh joy!

 

Gone forever.

 

I said earlier, nobody is against video highlighting clear and obvious errors. But this current system is mission creep gone mad.

 

Leave it to the fourth official to point out an absolute howler, and that's it.

 

 

[DasWolf]

13 hours ago, Leeds Fox said:

 

A defender moving forward to play an attacker offside (even by 1cm), gives the attacker an advantage when he is actually offside, no matter how small the margin. If it’s ‘clear and obvious’, the assistant referee should be raising a flag. 

 

A defender will be beaten by a player who is offside by a small amount as they are playing to make the attacker offside, just because they aren’t playing the ball, they are playing their game. Anticipating when the ball will be played and when the attacker will make his run is just as important as the two plays I mentioned. 

 

I do agree that it does take a fraction of the excitement away but it rules out illegitimate goals which is one of the primary reasons it was brought in. Offside is offside, it couldn’t be more black and white when you have VAR checking it.  

 

Saying "offside is offside", while true, is like a jobsworth saying "it's the rules" without understanding why the rule is there to begin with. We know offside is black and white as the rule is currently defined, and that VAR is only enforcing the rule. That's not the issue. The issue is why are we enforcing the rule to begin with. What are we trying to prevent? Are there any better ways of achieving the aim of the rule, with less side effects? Offside was never intended for incidents like the other day, so why not ask the question on what we're trying to achieve and if we can do better?

 

There is also the problem which is VAR is not precise enough to differentiate such tiny gaps. As Gray pointed out, you're trying to measure tiny gaps when players can move significantly between frames, when you have to take into account when the ball even starts moving due to compression, and so on.

 

I don't want to see a game where otherwise perfectly good goals are ruled out for a 1mm 'advantage', which is impossible to see in real time, and which would have made no difference either way. If the attacker is something like half a foot ahead, that's probably enough to get a shot away at the top level, and the point where we can say it's "unfair" - that's also the sort of distance which is obvious, so we can make quick decisions as well without needing to see slow motion replays for 2 minutes. Defenders/attackers would still have to anticipate and time well, that doesn't change. The only thing that changes is we stop measuring insignificant microscopic distances which have no impact on the outcome.

 

[Leeds Fox]

34 minutes ago, DasWolf said:

 

Saying "offside is offside", while true, is like a jobsworth saying "it's the rules" without understanding why the rule is there to begin with. We know offside is black and white as the rule is currently defined, and that VAR is only enforcing the rule. That's not the issue. The issue is why are we enforcing the rule to begin with. What are we trying to prevent? Are there any better ways of achieving the aim of the rule, with less side effects? Offside was never intended for incidents like the other day, so why not ask the question on what we're trying to achieve and if we can do better?

 

There is also the problem which is VAR is not precise enough to differentiate such tiny gaps. As Gray pointed out, you're trying to measure tiny gaps when players can move significantly between frames, when you have to take into account when the ball even starts moving due to compression, and so on.

 

I don't want to see a game where otherwise perfectly good goals are ruled out for a 1mm 'advantage', which is impossible to see in real time, and which would have made no difference either way. If the attacker is something like half a foot ahead, that's probably enough to get a shot away at the top level, and the point where we can say it's "unfair" - that's also the sort of distance which is obvious, so we can make quick decisions as well without needing to see slow motion replays for 2 minutes. Defenders/attackers would still have to anticipate and time well, that doesn't change. The only thing that changes is we stop measuring insignificant microscopic distances which have no impact on the outcome.

 

 

Right, I grasp what your first point is now. Yes whilst the rule might be ‘dated’ it’s the current rule so that’s an argument away from VAR. 

 

Secondly, agreeable again as defining when the ball is played can be ambiguous. Is it when it’s struck, or when it leaves the players foot? Tiny margins but can again make a difference when VAR comes into play. 

 

I could agree and disagree with all of your points and we could go around in circles. I think VAR makes the game fairer but needs some clearing up in areas. 

[foxile5]

Ah, there is probably a bit more accuracy but i think it has sacrificed an intangible. I'm not happy with the flow of the game being compromised to 'put right' the odd decision in fifteen. 

[oxford blue]

This article from the Independent makes similar points (including the link about accuracy) to which I had expressed on the other VAR thread (although to a mainly different incident). 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/var-premier-league-offside-raheem-sterling-bundesliga-mls-clear-and-obvious-a9056906.html

 

Reading this (and the Times article posted previously) does seem to suggest (in line with the poll at top of the thread) some changes will be made in due course. Apart from ensuring only obvious errors are reviewed (or id the refereee is in doubt, rathe rthan afraid to make a decision) there is no reason why the incident cannot be played to the crowd so they van see the same as the VAR - which would be as in rugby

[Swiss_tony]

Saying VAR won't stop  every error and we should get rid of it, is like saying requiring seatbelts won't stop  everybody from being killed in  car accidents so let's not have them  at all..

No it won't but some of the blatantly bad decisions like a penalty being given when the ball hits a defenders face will.

It's an improvement, and no old fogey whining about ruining the 'spirit of the game' that hasn't been there for 20 years anyway, get off my lawn type nonsense will change my mind.

 

[norwichfox]

18 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

 

 

 

 

This is quite a nice idea, gives that benefit of the doubt and stops the 1mm offside being given. But this still has flaws; woukd like something related to the officials call to keep their 'power' rather than reliance on tech solely

We need thicker goal lines too...would improve our defence massively.

[KrefelderFox666]

The quicker people understand that the majority of fallbacks with VAR are actually the rules the better.

 

VAR is applying the existing rules and what it has done is expose a few of them as poor and not exactly easy to agree on.

 

VAR can be improved by speeding up the process and maybe making earlier, more clear signals when reviews are happening. The other negative points pretty much all fall into the category of "rule changes needed".

[ThaiFox]

11 hours ago, Swiss_tony said:

Saying VAR won't stop  every error and we should get rid of it, is like saying requiring seatbelts won't stop  everybody from being killed in  car accidents so let's not have them  at all..

No it won't but some of the blatantly bad decisions like a penalty being given when the ball hits a defenders face will.

It's an improvement, and no old fogey whining about ruining the 'spirit of the game' that hasn't been there for 20 years anyway, get off my lawn type nonsense will change my mind.

 

The 'spirit of the game' comment will be made constantly by managers who are on the wrong side of decisions. We've already heard that after just one weekend of games.

 

As for blatant penalty decisions, the womens world cup was full of terrible VAR penalty decisions. Japan were robbed by VAR against the Netherlands.

 

And I still would like to know, if a penalty is (correctly) given after pushing by defenders at corners, does VAR then take  into account the pushing and tugging of the attacking side on defenders?

 

Also, would the Wolves goal have been allowed if one of our defenders had pushed Boly so that the ball hit his arm instead of his head?

 

All decisions are still debatable, and will continue to be because VAR is operated by humans making a decision 'as they see it'. Watch the Andy Gray clip on my earlier post and you can see the problem.

[Guest Fktf]

23 hours ago, Shmokeee said:

I have a cunning plan....

let the game continue as before with the ref calling the shots, with VAR working behind the scenes with absolutely no communication with the ref whatsoever.

Celebrate the goals as they should be celebrated, with wild abandonment, go nuts.

Then at full time, an allowance of 5 minutes to sort the mistakes made and VAR appears on the big screens....

It will then inform you all of the disallowed goals, could even award a penalty still.

Sounds far out, I know.

But it allows the game to flow, all errors are still corrected and the best part is you could be 4-2 down at full time and still win.

Missed red cards is an awkward one as the opposition would not gain any advantage but this isn’t that common.

Offsides/onsides will be the same as 

now with the 50/50s allowed to stand.

 

I know what your thinking.

And yes I should work for the FA

We have to find a way to make VAR work in real time - the whole point is to allow the game to play out fairly. I can't tell if this is a serious idea, but a simple thought experiment shows why retrospective decisions don't work.

 

We're at 1-1 with spurs in the 89th minute of the FA cup final. They float a corner across the box, and Kane is unmarked at the far post to head home what will surely be the winner. Desperate for an equaliser, we send Kasper up for a corner in the last few seconds of stoppage time, but the ball fails to beat the first man. Alli is first to the headed clearance and, on the half volley, he strikes the ball into our empty net from his own half. We're 3-1 down at the final whistle.

 

The allotted 5 minutes of VAR time begin. On viewing the replay of Kane's goal, it becomes clear why he was unmarked at the far post. The defender in charge of marking Kane had his shirt held by another spurs player as the corner came in, preventing him from moving towards the ball. It's a clear foul and the goal is ruled out, but with no other errors found in VAR-time, Spurs are awarded a 2-1 victory.

 

I've got mixed feelings on VAR in the current form, but not correcting mistakes on the spot allows those errors to influence the rest of the game. I think we just have to find a way of using it in real time that people are happy with.

[st albans fox]

2 hours ago, ThaiFox said:

The 'spirit of the game' comment will be made constantly by managers who are on the wrong side of decisions. We've already heard that after just one weekend of games.

 

As for blatant penalty decisions, the womens world cup was full of terrible VAR penalty decisions. Japan were robbed by VAR against the Netherlands.

 

And I still would like to know, if a penalty is (correctly) given after pushing by defenders at corners, does VAR then take  into account the pushing and tugging of the attacking side on defenders?

 

Also, would the Wolves goal have been allowed if one of our defenders had pushed Boly so that the ball hit his arm instead of his head?

 

All decisions are still debatable, and will continue to be because VAR is operated by humans making a decision 'as they see it'. Watch the Andy Gray clip on my earlier post and you can see the problem.

Yes it would 

 

and if boly was fouled by one of our players then var would judge a penalty but given that Dendoncker scored, advantage would be assumed and the goal stands 

[LCFCSOULBOY]

I used to be really supportive of the idea. Now that I have seen how it is being executed I really hate it. Think it is taking that special thing from football that we love. To literally have to wait to celebrate after a goal is ridiculous. The whole when VAR is used versus when not doesn't make sense. During Saturdays game Wolves were given a corner incorrectly. What if they had scored from the corner. Would we have VAR'd the corner decision?  Again I was a real supporter early on but now I am completely against. Pack it up now and except the loss.

[Facecloth]

 

[Super_horns]

On 16/08/2019 at 16:25, LCFCSOULBOY said:

I used to be really supportive of the idea. Now that I have seen how it is being executed I really hate it. Think it is taking that special thing from football that we love. To literally have to wait to celebrate after a goal is ridiculous. The whole when VAR is used versus when not doesn't make sense. During Saturdays game Wolves were given a corner incorrectly. What if they had scored from the corner. Would we have VAR'd the corner decision?  Again I was a real supporter early on but now I am completely against. Pack it up now and except the loss.

VAR doesn't look at that sort of thing ... rightly or wrongly .

[Unabomber]

Not seen a football fan pro VAR which I think says it all

[Benguin]

Would happily concede the point last week for VAR to do one, awful edition to the game.

[SemperEadem]

Gets worse and worse.

[Super_horns]

1 hour ago, Unabomber said:

Not seen a football fan pro VAR which I think says it all

Some bloke on our site was as he thought officials hated us and were so biased etc .

 

we have had 2 VAR penalties go against us ...

 

Now claiming that the VAR hates us etc !

[Super_horns]

Just now, SemperEadem said:

Gets worse and worse.

The new rule rather than VAR did blame for the handball decision I think .

 

Petty rule really .

 

 

[Rusko187]

It's the rules and competency of the officials that's failing, not a video replay.

[Guest ttfn]

As others have said, the handball law is the problem for the “winning goal”, not VAR.

 

The bigger issue with VAR today was that Lamela throttled and then pushed Rodri at a corner and nothing was given. To an extent I can understand the referee missing that in the melee of a set piece but for the VAR official to look at that and think that it didn’t meet the threshold of a “clear and obvious error” is troubling to say the least. Whether that just reflects badly on either my understanding of the rules, the authority of the VAR or their competence I don’t know.

 

That sort of thing is just rank bad officiating. It’s then compounded by the nonsense of assuming a ludicrously high threshold of accuracy on offsides from an imperfect system.

 

I do think that video technology is a good idea in principle but its use is all over the place. Football is in danger of becoming more like basketball, a game in which a large proportion of points are accumulated from penalising technical fouls. I don’t think that’s what the laws of the game are trying to do do enforcing such specific items in such a draconian way obviously feels wrong.

[LCFCSOULBOY]

2 hours ago, Super_horns said:

VAR doesn't look at that sort of thing ... rightly or wrongly .

My reasoning exactly

[turkish14]

51 minutes ago, Rusko187 said:

It's the rules and competency of the officials that's failing, not a video replay.

This is spot on!

 

stupid people saying VAR doesn’t work...