The VAR thread

[Facecloth]

1 hour ago, Fktf said:

This is how var would be used if the offside rule was 'anything you can spot with the naked eye'. But that isn't the rule we have at the moment, hence the tech is used to spot offsides of even 1mm. 

 

Anyway, I think we both agree something needs to be done to stop var ruling out goals like sterling's, otherwise we're going to end up with forwards holding their runs, not playing on the shoulder of the last defender, and that'll mean less goals for us fans. 

It should be there to pick up things that should be seen by the naked eye, but aren't eg, Dan Burns offside yesterday. Again I think you're missing the point. If VAR looks at an offside, and it's not immediately obvious that it's off, then that's where its involvement ends. It should not be going out it's way to find errors. Its nothing to do with how far you are offside, its the fact VAR is going out its way to spot people that far offside. If start allowing a margin, people will want a margin on that, and then a margin on that etc. The rule us fine, but if we shouldn't be using VAR to CSI the shit out of replays to implement them. Think about the two man city goals against West Ham and Spurs. No fan or player of those teams was feeling hard done by when Jesus scored those goals. Nobody knew the ball brushed Laportes arm because it was so slight, nobody claimed Sterling was 1mm offside because theres no way they'd have known. I feel we're pandering the the tv viewer who watch pundits pull apart the ref decisions each week and see everything in slow mo and black and white, and its at the detriment of the flow and passion if the game.

 

I've mentioned it before, but I think a tennis type challenge rule would be ideal. The game is played as before, no var involvement, until the captain or manager requests it. Then it can get a nit picky as it likes, but the usage is limited to the requests made by the club, which in themselves would be limited, like in tennis. That way were not stopping the game all the time, not every goal takes 2 minutes to confirm and the manager/captain will had to actually think about the decisions they are protesting.

Edited 18 August 2019 by Facecloth

[UniFox21]

With the error margin being shown, it would be interesting  to see a rule implemented where if the linesman has  signalled offside, and VAR reviews it to show its not clear and obvious or within that error margin, then the decision stands with what the linesman has given?

[boots60]

Don't normally have much time for the opinions of Danny Murphy but he is spot on with wanting to do away with VAR except for goal line decisions.

 

 

 

[ThaiFox]

On 16/08/2019 at 15:23, st albans fox said:

Yes it would 

 

and if boly was fouled by one of our players then var would judge a penalty but given that Dendoncker scored, advantage would be assumed and the goal stands 

Thanks for the clarification on that point, although I'd be interested if they look at all the pushing and pulling throughout the entire process, even before the kick was taken?

 

It still doesn't alter my opinion of VAR. I loathe it and it's actually putting me off watching games now.

 

Yesterday's match Man City v Spuds there was an 100% stonewall penalty. No sign of VAR when it was really needed. That incident alone would have given me a little more confidence in the system. (Just as Adrian was off his line in his match winning penalty save in the Super Cup last Wednesday, as was Pickford when England won a bronze in the Nations League 3rd match play off v Switzerland, not to mention the many wrong VAR decisions in the women's world cup). What's the point in VAR if they miss these most obvious incidents? 

 

Then we get a decision. It was correctly given under the new law, and although not one Spuds player appealed for handball, it disallowed the goal. However, it's totally crazy that if the ball had hit the defenders arm it wouldn't have been a penalty because it wasn't deliberate! What idiot thought up this rule? Why are we penalizing attacking play, and not encouraging it?

 

OK, that's not VAR's fault, but wasn't this law specifically brought in BECAUSE of VAR? So now, the FA and FIFA are changing laws to accommodate VAR! There's even a report out today that VAR can be as much as 33cms out on offside decisions! So goodness knows what rules they will now introduce to counter this! Ye gods, it's going to get so complicated the matches will never end!

 

Today all I've seen on-line in the media is VAR, VAR, VAR......it's now taken over the whole after match process. I can't watch MOTD out here, but I'd bet there were more pundits/managers/players talking on MOTD last night about VAR than the actually showing highlights of the match. This may settle down, but I still maintain it will provide just as many (if not more) controversial decisions than before it came along.

[Spicer]

I don't understand peoples complains with the marginal offside calls. The rules are clear with offside, it doesn't matter if it's a centimeter or a meter

[ThaiFox]

1 minute ago, Spicer said:

I don't understand peoples complains with the marginal offside calls. The rules are clear with offside, it doesn't matter if it's a centimeter or a meter

Except there's a report out today that says VAR can be as much as 33cms out on offside decisions!

[ealingfox]

If a linesman called a 1mm offside correctly they'd be applauded, now tech can call it correctly every time apparently the games gone. Ridiculous saying 'oh but it's ok to be a little bit offside'. It literally isn't, you're either offside or you're not. If you don't want to be caught offside then stay onside.

 

[Spicer]

58 minutes ago, ThaiFox said:

Except there's a report out today that says VAR can be as much as 33cms out on offside decisions!

Has there?

It is a genuine report or some questionable journalism? I couldn't find it with a quick search

[ThaiFox]

6 minutes ago, Spicer said:

Has there?

It is a genuine report or some questionable journalism? I couldn't find it with a quick search

it's reported on the Sky News App 'paper talk' thread. (So it's probably questionable journalism!)

 

However, it'll still cause as much discussion, more debate and more arguments as there was before VAR.

 

The Mail on Sunday reports a claim that there is a margin of error of up to 13 cms, (not the 33 cms as I stated in my earlier post - sorry!).

 

 

[Jonezy]

I love the new handball rule.  For years the handball rules have been so vague, that there has been no consistency at all. Now we have at least one clear rule about it. 

 

I still like VAR helping us getting the most important decisions right. We still need to learn how to use it best though, but I am definitely one the few still in the pro VAR camp.   

[Spicer]

1 hour ago, ThaiFox said:

it's reported on the Sky News App 'paper talk' thread. (So it's probably questionable journalism!)

 

However, it'll still cause as much discussion, more debate and more arguments as there was before VAR.

 

The Mail on Sunday reports a claim that there is a margin of error of up to 13 cms, (not the 33 cms as I stated in my earlier post - sorry!).

 

 

Ah fair enough. Thanks for the info. 13cm would be quite a big error. Let's hope that's just paper talk.

[oxford blue]

4 hours ago, Spicer said:

Ah fair enough. Thanks for the info. 13cm would be quite a big error. Let's hope that's just paper talk.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-7367673/THE-GREAT-VAR-DEBATE-Tech-said-Sterling-2-4cm-offside-allowed-13cm-margin-error.html

 

This is the article - more than 'paper talk', but similar to what I said on the other VAR thread.

 

5 hours ago, Jonezy said:

For years the handball rules have been so vague, that there has been no consistency at all. Now we have at least one clear rule about it. 

 

True, but now there are different types of hand balls, so the hand balls by Wolves & Man city were only hand balls because a goal was scored - or actually wasn't. Not VAR's fault, but a very strange rule.

 

 

[Merging Cultures]

23 hours ago, Facecloth said:

It should be there to pick up things that should be seen by the naked eye, but aren't eg, Dan Burns offside yesterday. Again I think you're missing the point. If VAR looks at an offside, and it's not immediately obvious that it's off, then that's where its involvement ends. It should not be going out it's way to find errors. Its nothing to do with how far you are offside, its the fact VAR is going out its way to spot people that far offside. If start allowing a margin, people will want a margin on that, and then a margin on that etc. The rule us fine, but if we shouldn't be using VAR to CSI the shit out of replays to implement them. Think about the two man city goals against West Ham and Spurs. No fan or player of those teams was feeling hard done by when Jesus scored those goals. Nobody knew the ball brushed Laportes arm because it was so slight, nobody claimed Sterling was 1mm offside because theres no way they'd have known. I feel we're pandering the the tv viewer who watch pundits pull apart the ref decisions each week and see everything in slow mo and black and white, and its at the detriment of the flow and passion if the game.

 

I've mentioned it before, but I think a tennis type challenge rule would be ideal. The game is played as before, no var involvement, until the captain or manager requests it. Then it can get a nit picky as it likes, but the usage is limited to the requests made by the club, which in themselves would be limited, like in tennis. That way were not stopping the game all the time, not every goal takes 2 minutes to confirm and the manager/captain will had to actually think about the decisions they are protesting.

This is exactly my sentiment. Thanks for putting it so well. Definitely should only be used when either a. the ref/linesman have clearly missed something, or b. there is a challenge by the team.

 

22 hours ago, ThaiFox said:

Except there's a report out today that says VAR can be as much as 33cms out on offside decisions!

I am with you, I don't like VAR. But that report is incorrect, it assumes that the VAR team use the same frames per second as the sky broadcast - 50 fps. Which does give a margin of error, because between each frame (at that speed) a player like Sterling could move 13cms, it widens with the opposition player moving in the other direction. However, VAR uses a much higher frame rate, I believe up to 500fps (I've also heard 120fps and 240fps), which significantly reduces the margin of error.

 

However, as I mentioned in my agreement with Facecloth, it should only be used when an offside or foul obviously missed, or there is a challenge.

[UniFox21]

Basically what everyone is saying. No issue with VAR laying down the law, a lot of the time its the law that's the issue. But it's moments like that tweet capture that we can't lose. 

Football is little but a game without the raw emotion and passion brought to it by fans. Clubs and authorities spend thousands to create the atmosphere. 

Why ruin it for technology that isn't properly utilised

 

[tsintskaro]

46 minutes ago, UniFox21 said:

Basically what everyone is saying. No issue with VAR laying down the law, a lot of the time its the law that's the issue. But it's moments like that tweet capture that we can't lose. 

Football is little but a game without the raw emotion and passion brought to it by fans. Clubs and authorities spend thousands to create the atmosphere. 

Why ruin it for technology that isn't properly utilised

 

everyone is celebrating anyway.just watch la liga,they have VAR since last season and everything is fine with celebrations

cut this "omg we are losing football" shit

[oxford blue]

"Basically what everyone is saying. No issue with VAR laying down the law, a lot of the time its the law that's the issue. But it's moments like that tweet capture that we can't lose. 

Football is little but a game without the raw emotion and passion brought to it by fans. Clubs and authorities spend thousands to create the atmosphere. 

Why ruin it for technology that isn't properly utilised"

 

I agree with Unifox. I have said before the new handball rule should go; it's riduculous it seems it can only be picked up by VAR (so far) and a different handball for different outcomes is nonsensical. If we have to have VAR (and I am disappointed withthe way it's working so far) it must be speeded up and pictures should be shown in the stadiums whilst decision is being made. Waiting for up to 2 minutes whilst a decision is being made with no real idea of what's going on unless you're watching on tv - this was introduced without any thought for the fans inside in the grounds upon whom football depends

[CosbehFox]

Still find Nuno and his 139 assistant coaches on the bench celebrations weird 

Edited 20 August 2019 by Cardiff_Fox

[Trav Le Bleu]

On 18/08/2019 at 12:10, Facecloth said:

 

 

I've mentioned it before, but I think a tennis type challenge rule would be ideal. The game is played as before, no var involvement, until the captain or manager requests it. Then it can get a nit picky as it likes, but the usage is limited to the requests made by the club, which in themselves would be limited, like in tennis. That way were not stopping the game all the time, not every goal takes 2 minutes to confirm and the manager/captain will had to actually think about the decisions they are protesting.

Agree with your post but just quoted that last paragraph to say that I'd be worried about any challenge system being used to disrupt and break up play towards the end of a game where a team in the lead is desperately struggling against a team getting on top of them and threatening to score.

[davieG]

Frpm 442

 

Why Premier League fans are wrongly losing their minds about VAR – and 5 more things we've learned about new rule changes

We’re only two weeks in, but we’ve already had tiresome debate, fan opprobrium and wild conspiracy thinking. Andrew Murray wonders whether the criticism of VAR is missing the point

image: https://images.cdn.fourfourtwo.com/sites/fourfourtwo.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/picture-119-1380718208.jpg?itok=XDv1J8pM

Andrew Murray's picture
by
Andrew Murray

Published
31 min ago

First things first, an apology. In July, we published a piece about 2019/20’s rule changes and thought the amendment to Law 12 regarding accidental handball – “it is an offence if a player scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental” – wouldn’t cause too many problems. Oops.

A fortnight into the new Premier League season and we already have two goals, and wins for Wolves and Manchester City by proxy, ruled out for accidental handball in the build-up. Planet football has gone nuclear.

First comes the the technological fallout. VAR is ruining football! The emotion has gone!! There’s a conspiracy against Manchester City winning the league!!! Then follow the sardonic replies of correct adherence of procedures. Finally, both groups start sniping at each until proving Godwin’s law.

By any measure, VAR got it unequivocally right, according to the law. Whether you agree with the rule change itself is neither here nor there. Ian Holloway doesn't, but then neither does he seem to know arse from elbow. All goals are automatically checked by VAR, and any handball that leads to a goal is a free-kick. Simple. To conflate the two is either lazy or wilfully ignorant, the fan equivalent of a Danny Mills Sheffield United preview. 

“It’s not VAR’s fault,” said Gary Lineker on Match of the Day. “It’s the new law which has put VAR in an invidious position, with no leeway to make nonsensical decisions.” 

True, there are intricacies at play here. It’s hard to square that a goal can be ruled out for accidental handball, but a penalty not given against a defender if the same situation were reversed. Equally, you can understand Manchester City fans’ annoyance that there was no VAR intervention on what seemed like a first-half penalty, but again, correct procedure was followed. It’s the grey area between ‘clear and obvious error’ and ‘no goal scored via handball’ in the law which is the problem here, not VAR itself.

After years of whinging and belittling of referees for getting the most marginal of calls wrong, we must now live with it. We’re the turkeys who voted for Christmas, but refused to stop clucking. If IFAB are to believed, that’ll take a tiresome 10 years.

 

1. New goal-kick

Manchester City have, unsurprisingly, been quickest to adapt to the law change that defenders can receive the ball from a goal-kick inside their own penalty area. Pep Guardiola has obviously spent much of pre-season drilling his centre-backs to retreat for the restart, luring out the opposition press and passing into midfield quicker and easier than before.

In Ederson, City also have a goalkeeper who can ping a 70-yard missile over the opposition and release Raheem Sterling at pace. Given you can’t be offside from a goal-kick, opposition can’t squeeze too high behind the press, for fear of the long pass in behind. Nature (and Pep) finds a way.

 

2. Don’t leave me this way

On the other hand, however, the well-meaning attempt to reduce time-wasting substitutions by requiring players to leave the pitch via the nearest touchline has had basically no effect. Whether too ingrained in their psyche or (more likely) told to ignore it, players of teams with something to hold onto in a game continue to trudge towards the halfway. They may as well wave at the referees on the way.

 

3. The Wall

Invented by Spain at this summer’s Women’s World Cup to counter the law change that attackers must be at least one metre away from defensive walls of three or more players, the ‘attacking’ wall in front of a free-kick blockade is proving popular. Designed to disrupt the wall’s view, Liverpool are among the early Premier League adopters, with players scattering like naughty school children hiding cigarettes as the kick is taken.

 

4. Keep on your line

Despite initial reports that VAR wouldn’t be used to determine penalty area encroachment or goalkeepers not staying on their line, West Ham fell foul of Stockley Park (how soon before that becomes a knuckle-dragging insult for someone who follows the rules?) in their 5-0 opening day shellacking at home to Man City. Sergio Aguero got a reprieve for Declan Rice’s encroachment.

Hats off, then, to Jurgen Klopp in the UEFA Super Cup shootout. Keeper Adrian was off his line, but the German boss was lollopping onto the pitch to congratulate the Spaniard. Good luck overturning that.

 

5. Head-to-headaches

The most important one. It’s great that head-to-head records between teams level on points, goal difference, goals for and goals against now decide league position (despite such an occurrence never having happened come season’s end), but WHAT DO WE DO AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEASON, YOU FIENDS? Will nobody think of poor Wolves propping up the table on alphabetical order? Why is the Premier League so biased towards Arsenal? And who are the psychopaths who think it should AFC Bournemouth?

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/premier-league-handball-new-rules-var-goal-kick-attacking-wall

[jumbo747]

Ian Holloway, top UK football manager, has the answer. Apparently it's Brexit - that'll clear this VAR thing up nicely.

 

 

[Always Next Year]

It is what it is, some weeks it will benefit you other weeks it won’t. But agree it’s still down to human error,I see it one way you see it another.

[foxinsocks]

Scap it asap ... it ruons the emotions

[st albans fox]

3 hours ago, jumbo747 said:

Ian Holloway, top UK football manager, has the answer. Apparently it's Brexit - that'll clear this VAR thing up nicely.

 

 

why do they employ professional pundits who don’t understand the laws of the game ??

 

Yeah - I know about Merson but sky won’t get rid of him on compassionate grounds ...

Edited 21 August 2019 by st albans fox

[Corky]

Today again showed that the fans in the ground need better guidance. The checking of the red card for Tielemans was very confusing as nothing untoward appeared to have happened, there were no mass protests from Bournemouth so we waited for 90 seconds/ 2 minutes for a decision. No red card was given and plenty were left none the wiser as to what had occurred, Wilson carried on and we just assumed it was a coming together where one player was worse off then the game continued. The incident wasn't shown afterwards either.

[StanSP]

Just now, Corky said:

Today again showed that the fans in the ground need better guidance. The checking of the red card for Tielemans was very confusing as nothing untoward appeared to have happened, there were no mass protests from Bournemouth so we waited for 90 seconds/ 2 minutes for a decision. No red card was given and plenty were left none the wiser as to what had occurred, Wilson carried on and we just assumed it was a coming together where one player was worse off then the game continued. The incident wasn't shown afterwards either.

Yep. It was only until I got home and saw some tweets and stuff about it I realised Tielemans had done what he did or was involved to such an extent. 

Because like you say there was nothing untoward, I perhaps thought it might have been a stray elbow somewhere else on the pitch that was being checked. I had no idea it was even Tielemans involved.