Corona Virus

[Alf Bentley]

5 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Sorry, blame me, I have unintentionally taken us into banned topic territory (Politics) 

 

Not according to Mark's definition in the message at the top. You've not complained about a country, a politician, a party and/or its voters.

 

I did consider replying to that message by praising China, Xi Jinping, the Chinese Communist Party and its, er, voters.......

but decided that would be needlessly provocative and that I didn't want to get banned.  

[SpacedX]

3 minutes ago, bovril said:

This is one of the problems with the UK though. We don't need a Churchill figure, we just needed better decision making.

If you were to identify the main facet and strength associated with his leadership, it would be his resolution/decision making. 

[BlueSi13]

Doesn't the Times article just confirm that the Government were just following official scientific advice via SAGE and NERVTAG the whole time?  

 

It's now clear that both were guilty of not fully grasping the seriousness of the situation until it was too late, however based on the data that was coming out of China and the WHO it's pretty understandable (this thread is worth reading):

 

Not saying the Government is not at fault, far from it, if anything it sounds as if they were following their own official guidance too blindly and too passively.  But this is far more complex and intricate than any of us on this football forum understands.   

[Dr The Singh]

18 minutes ago, The Blur said:

Considering the amount of people posting that they miss Nandos on social media,  I am actually dreading likes of Nandos opening,   I can imagine the queues flouting social distancing rules upon the opening day.

 

I wonder whether if the major chain restaurants would be looking at introducing an online booking system given the likehood of reduced tables due to social distancing measures and it would be in everyone's best interests to reduce queues as well.   Is it feasible to commission website developers and to have the new booking systems embedded in their websites/interface etc in the space of few weeks should there be ease of lockdown restrictions for restaurants in May as an example?

Loads of my local restaurants/take away joints have started online collection bookings.  

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, Line-X said:

If you were to identify the main facet and strength associated with his leadership, it would be his resolution/decision making. 

Yeah and he's been dead over half a century and the war ended 75 years ago.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

Yeah and he's been dead over half a century and the war ended 75 years ago.

For some, the war is never over.

[SpacedX]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

Yeah and he's been dead over half a century and the war ended 75 years ago.

He has and it did. I haven't at any stage suggested we need another of his ilk, that was a different era, but it doesn't detract from the fact that he was remembered for his decision making which was my sole point. 

[SpacedX]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

For some, the war is never over.

Hiroo Onoda

[Nick]

In my assessment the article is written with a host of tabloid bias and lacks fact checking of claims which are not balanced or substantially evidenced.

 

For me though there are two issues it presents.

 

1. The period of not learning from other countries actions and findings and then following a blueprint for a different type of pandemic.

 

2. The interesting political statement by The Times and Sunday Times printing such a story - it smacks of some weight of dissatisfaction from the press regarding the government’s handling of the news coverage element / transparency or at least some issue between the owners of the publication and the government.

 

The rest of the article is pretty much inflammatory - almost as if the quality of the journalism was sacrificed to stir a pot for economic/political reasons only known to the editor and the owners.

[Stivo]

54 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

If they’ve put their trust in a Turkish supplier of clothing then they’re in for a shock .....if they were promised today then I expect they will turn up early may !!! 

It’s been delayed...

[bovril]

1 minute ago, Line-X said:

He has and it did. I haven't at any stage suggested we need another of his ilk, that was a different era, but it doesn't detract from the fact that he was remembered for his decision making which was my sole point. 

Sure, and my point wasn't about Churchill really. Just that the country seems to struggle at the moment to make rational decisions based on what's good for its people and our neighbours. We're blinded by this Churchillian image of us going it alone against the enemy. 

[sdb]

I swear everything that's been reported in the Sunday Times today has been known for weeks? 

 

How anyone can still rate Johnson is a mystery to me but I still have mates on facebook who post gushy nonsense about him daily. I think getting it himself seems to have excused him of years of incompetence for some people. Frightening. 

 

Edit- just seen I'm off topic, apologies!!

Edited 19 April 2020 by sdb

[sdb]

Also, dont get drawn into paying for a Times subscription. Seen lots of people going on about that today but a) it's just sharing news which is done every day, b) it's a Murdoch paper and c) as someone who accidentally subscribed once, it's the biggest ball ache to get out of it you could ever imagine!!

[Leicester_Loyal]

Things could have definitely been done differently and Boris himself will know this. However, he's followed scientific advice hasn't he? We were told in January by the WHO that human to human transmission was impossible, so there's absolutely no chance that any Government in this country would be preparing for what was to come then.

 

As always Scousefox is his usual self. I hope he's rejecting those evils Tories offer of 80% pay while this is going on

[SpacedX]

Just now, bovril said:

Sure, and my point wasn't about Churchill really. Just that the country seems to struggle at the moment to make rational decisions based on what's good for its people and our neighbours. We're blinded by this Churchillian image of us going it alone against the enemy. 

I would suggest that the Churchillian image that you refer to was on the contrary, one of solidarity and community stoicism. Far from going it alone, war time was about unity, camaraderie and mutual support. So in the absence of rational decisions, perhaps that sort of decisive leadership is precisely what we need? 

 

I think the way that we have become more insular as a society has bred many of the maladies that have been highlighted on this thread over the last few months. Earlier it was suggested that Thatcherism was the root of this change ingrained into the nation and where I think that's partially true, I think it goes much deeper than that. 

[Dr The Singh]

14 minutes ago, Stivo said:

It’s been delayed...

Until early May?

[Alf Bentley]

5 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Things could have definitely been done differently and Boris himself will know this. However, he's followed scientific advice hasn't he? We were told in January by the WHO that human to human transmission was impossible, so there's absolutely no chance that any Government in this country would be preparing for what was to come then.

 

 

While the WHO deserves some criticism, this doesn't support your claim above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization's_response_to_the_2019–20_coronavirus_pandemic

• On 10 January, WHO issued a comprehensive package of guidance to countries on how to test for potential cases. By this date, the WHO warned of the risk of human-to-human transmission.
• [...]
• On 14 January, the WHO told in a press briefing that "it is possible that there is limited human-to-human transmission, potentially among families, but it is very clear right now that we have no sustained human-to-human transmission" On the same day, the WHO's Twitter account reported that "preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission", though in a press briefing on the same day, the WHO recommended countries to take precautions due to the human-to-human transmission during earlier SARS and MERS outbreaks.
• On 20 January, the WHO released a tweet that it was "now very clear from the latest information that there is at least some human-to-human transmission" that has occurred, given that healthcare workers had been infected.
• On 22 January, WHO issued a statement stating that the data "suggests that human-to-human transmission is taking place in Wuhan", and called for more investigation.
• [...]
  
• On 27 January, the WHO assessed the risk of the outbreak to be "high at the global level".
• On 30 January, the emergency committee reconvened, and advised that the outbreak constituted a Public Health Emergency of International Concern. The WHO warned that "all countries should be prepared for containment"

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-52344540/coronavirus-us-protests-against-and-for-lockdown-restrictions

 

Meanwhile, over the pond, American Exceptionalism at its finest!

[st albans fox]

Just a note on PPE, for much of February, no one knew when China would re open and start manufacturing again on a proper scale. So it wasn’t really an option to order PPE from China at that time. and by the time their production returned to reasonable levels (by 10th March), the whole world was going after PPE 

 

it’s a little simplistic to say that we did nothing during February on PPE as it really wasn’t straightforward re procurement at that time. 
 

The mistakes were made first half March in not grasping the nettle once it became clear how bad this was going to get ..........

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

While the WHO deserves some criticism, this doesn't support your claim above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization's_response_to_the_2019–20_coronavirus_pandemic

• On 10 January, WHO issued a comprehensive package of guidance to countries on how to test for potential cases. By this date, the WHO warned of the risk of human-to-human transmission.
• [...]
• On 14 January, the WHO told in a press briefing that "it is possible that there is limited human-to-human transmission, potentially among families, but it is very clear right now that we have no sustained human-to-human transmission" On the same day, the WHO's Twitter account reported that "preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission", though in a press briefing on the same day, the WHO recommended countries to take precautions due to the human-to-human transmission during earlier SARS and MERS outbreaks.
• On 20 January, the WHO released a tweet that it was "now very clear from the latest information that there is at least some human-to-human transmission" that has occurred, given that healthcare workers had been infected.
• On 22 January, WHO issued a statement stating that the data "suggests that human-to-human transmission is taking place in Wuhan", and called for more investigation.
• [...]
• On 27 January, the WHO assessed the risk of the outbreak to be "high at the global level".
• On 30 January, the emergency committee reconvened, and advised that the outbreak constituted a Public Health Emergency of International Concern. The WHO warned that "all countries should be prepared for containment"

Unfortunately, when you're a self-interested national leader or someone heavily invested in the idea of nationalism, then fallibility, either when obvious or ambiguous cannot be implied in any way, shape or form.

 

Thus, the blame game at either another nation (China) or an NGO (like the WHO) for the whole thing before asserting any accountability on oneself is the way to go. Truth (which is indeed much more complex than all that but I do believe we have some pretty smart people on here capable of understanding at least some of the intricacies of the matter) sadly doesn't seem to come into it.

 

 

[Leicester_Loyal]

4 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

While the WHO deserves some criticism, this doesn't support your claim above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization's_response_to_the_2019–20_coronavirus_pandemic

• On 10 January, WHO issued a comprehensive package of guidance to countries on how to test for potential cases. By this date, the WHO warned of the risk of human-to-human transmission.
• [...]
• On 14 January, the WHO told in a press briefing that "it is possible that there is limited human-to-human transmission, potentially among families, but it is very clear right now that we have no sustained human-to-human transmission" On the same day, the WHO's Twitter account reported that "preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission", though in a press briefing on the same day, the WHO recommended countries to take precautions due to the human-to-human transmission during earlier SARS and MERS outbreaks.
• On 20 January, the WHO released a tweet that it was "now very clear from the latest information that there is at least some human-to-human transmission" that has occurred, given that healthcare workers had been infected.
• On 22 January, WHO issued a statement stating that the data "suggests that human-to-human transmission is taking place in Wuhan", and called for more investigation.
• [...]
• On 27 January, the WHO assessed the risk of the outbreak to be "high at the global level".
• On 30 January, the emergency committee reconvened, and advised that the outbreak constituted a Public Health Emergency of International Concern. The WHO warned that "all countries should be prepared for containment"

Fair enough my wording wasn't the best, I should have said we were told there was no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission. If they say that, it's unlikely any Government will start to spend tens of millions of precautions, or they'd be critisied for wasting public money.

[Leicester_Loyal]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Unfortunately, when you're a self-interested national leader or someone heavily invested in the idea of nationalism, then fallibility, either when obvious or ambiguous cannot be implied in any way, shape or form.

 

Thus, the blame game at either another nation (China) or an NGO (like the WHO) for the whole thing before asserting any accountability on oneself is the way to go. Truth (which is indeed much more complex than all that but I do believe we have some pretty smart people on here capable of understanding at least some of the intricacies of the matter) sadly doesn't seem to come into it.

 

 

What are you taking about? If China has created this virus, then they are obviously to blame. If they have covered up figures, they are obviously to blame. If the WHO didn't put faith in Chinese figures and put that information out, things could have been a lot different. Likewise Boris could have done things differently, he could have attended more meetings, he could have prepared slightly earlier. It's all easy to say now though isn't it? If I had invested in Bitcoin many years ago, things would be a lot different for me too.

 

Everyone should take a portion of the blame for this whole situation.

Edited 19 April 2020 by Leicester_Loyal

[Izzy]

People love a good blame don't they.

 

Not sure what it really achieves, but blame away til your hearts content...

[Mike Oxlong]

3 minutes ago, Izzy said:

People love a good blame don't they.

 

Not sure what it really achieves, but blame away til your hearts content...

One person’s blame is another person’s accountability. 

[davieG]

Just now, Izzy said:

People love a good blame don't they.

 

Not sure what it really achieves, but blame away til your hearts content...

Lest we forget we get the politicians we deserve, why anyone would want to be one with all the negativity, career ruining journos, social media lies I have no idea.