Corona Virus

[Tuna]

5 minutes ago, Izzy said:

People love a good blame don't they.

 

Not sure what it really achieves, but blame away til your hearts content...

 

It doesn't help the current situation does it?

We all want the government to succeed in what they are doing.

 

[Leicester_Loyal]

482 deaths in England today.

Of the 482 new deaths announced today:

- 118 occurred on 18 April

- 243 occurred on 17 April

- 62 occurred on 16 April
 

The figures also show 56 of the deaths took place between April 1 and April 15, and the remaining three deaths occurred in March, with the earliest new death taking place on 20 March, NHS England said.

The figures published today show 8 April currently has the highest total for the most hospital deaths occurring on a single day - 801 - although this could change in future updates.

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

What are you taking about? If China has created this virus, then they are obviously to blame. If they have covered up figures, they are obviously to blame. If the WHO didn't put faith in Chinese figures and put that information out, things could have been a lot different. Likewise Boris could have done things differently, he could have attended more meetings, he could have prepared slightly earlier. It's all easy to say now though isn't it? If I had invested in Bitcoin many years ago, things would be a lot different for me too.

 

Everyone should take a portion of the blame for this whole situation.

Agreeing that the matter is complex and that your last sentence is correct, nothing more.

 

Most people on here seem to understand that, but unfortunately the same can't be said for the greater world in general and some parts of it in particular, which is what I was highlighting.

 

NB. With respect to blaming right now, I don't think that's a good idea either - but again, that's not really stopping folks like the current protestors Stateside, for instance.

 

 

[Guest Kopfkino]

On 16/04/2020 at 02:00, leicsmac said:

so the WHO aren't just incompetent as an institution, they're now actively malicious?

Yeah no definitely. If you're only capable of binary thinking then yeah sure thing. Safe to say I don't need to waste my time on the rest of it. 

[st albans fox]

The numbers look much better today but we’ve been here before on sun/mon 

[Mike Oxlong]

 

You can have too much of looking at the other sofa during this lockdown 

[Izzy]

3 minutes ago, Tuna said:

 

It doesn't help the current situation does it?

We all want the government to succeed in what they are doing.

 

It’s not just the government, it seems everyone’s to blame.

 

Blame Boris

Blame the Chinese 

Blame Trump

Blame the media

Blame the WHO

etc etc

 

Its all a bit tedious really...

[Leicester_Loyal]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Agreeing that the matter is complex and that your last sentence is correct, nothing more.

 

Most people on here seem to understand that, but unfortunately the same can't be said for the greater world in general and some parts of it in particular, which is what I was highlighting.

 

NB. With respect to blaming right now, I don't think that's a good idea either - but again, that's not really stopping folks like the current protestors Stateside, for instance.

 

 

Apologies that may have come across a little harsher than I meant!

 

We can look at the blame etc. afterwards, and I have no doubt that all the parties will be getting a lot of flack for it.

[reynard]

Just now, st albans fox said:

The numbers look much better today but we’ve been here before on sun/mon 

yes we will need to see how things pan out next Tuesday/Wednesday.

Though we did 21k tests the number of new infections was the second highest recorded in a single day and that despite over 3 weeks of the lockdown.

[st albans fox]

Just now, reynard said:

yes we will need to see how things pan out next Tuesday/Wednesday.

Though we did 21k tests the number of new infections was the second highest recorded in a single day and that despite over 3 weeks of the lockdown.

The assumption being that this is a result of the additional testing .... frontline staff/care homes wouldn’t be requesting a test now unless they thought there was a suspected case 

[Dr The Singh]

Just now, Izzy said:

It’s not just the government, it seems everyone’s to blame.

 

Blame Boris

Blame the Chinese 

Blame Trump

Blame the media

Blame the WHO

etc etc

 

Its all a bit tedious really...

I blame Foxestalk....I was living my lockdown in the ignorance of what was going on In the world.

 

All I'm thinking now is.....what's going on now is like a fooking b grade soap opera, of a remake of the epic series Mahabharata.   

[BlueSi13]

46 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Things could have definitely been done differently and Boris himself will know this. However, he's followed scientific advice hasn't he? We were told in January by the WHO that human to human transmission was impossible, so there's absolutely no chance that any Government in this country would be preparing for what was to come then.

 

As always Scousefox is his usual self. I hope he's rejecting those evils Tories offer of 80% pay while this is going on

Just imagine what the press would have been like if he hadn't 

 

Either way positive news today in terms of recorded deaths, a 33% drop vs yesterday (lower than the last two Sundays).  Hope this trend continues 

[reynard]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

The assumption being that this is a result of the additional testing .... frontline staff/care homes wouldn’t be requesting a test now unless they thought there was a suspected case 

Let's hope so and the detail does indicate this may be true. Infection rate was at 36% for those people tested. We're still so far away from testing enough though.

[yorkie1999]

23 minutes ago, Izzy said:

People love a good blame don't they.

 

Not sure what it really achieves, but blame away til your hearts content...

When this is over, all we need to ask ourselves is what would we do next time it happens, whatever is different is where the blame lies.

[Nalis]

9 minutes ago, Izzy said:

It’s not just the government, it seems everyone’s to blame.

 

Blame Boris

Blame the Chinese 

Blame Trump

Blame the media

Blame the WHO

etc etc

 

Its all a bit tedious really...

I know the point you are making and I agree to a certain extent.

 

The blame game usually doesnt help if its for point scoring but I think for those who can influence to constructively criticise if it means improving the approach on handling this then its surely a good thing, when appropiate?

[yorkie1999]

The're on about paying front line workers an extra 29 quid a day, not even 3 packs of fags a day for putting your life at risk. How about double wages.

[bovril]

18 minutes ago, Tuna said:

 

It doesn't help the current situation does it?

We all want the government to succeed in what they are doing.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Izzy said:

It’s not just the government, it seems everyone’s to blame.

 

Blame Boris

Blame the Chinese 

Blame Trump

Blame the media

Blame the WHO

etc etc

 

Its all a bit tedious really...

It's also about holding people to account. I mean if the government hadn't changed tack and continued to keep things open while thousands more people died, would we have sat here and told people not to "play politics"? 

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Yeah no definitely. If you're only capable of binary thinking then yeah sure thing. Safe to say I don't need to waste my time on the rest of it. 

Interesting. The post to which that reply was directed did seem to be rather binary in that way in of itself, too.

 

Still, the current circumstances appear to be making practically everyone short-fused so best leave it there.

[Wymsey]

Wonder, when this situation is all over, in what areas of life will the government propose tax increases on the public?

[Nalis]

7 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Wonder, when this situation is all over, in what areas of life will the government propose tax increases on the public?

Probably not for a couple of generations, the debts will be passed on like they've always been. Whether thats the right thing to do or not morally, I dont know.

[Guest Kopfkino]

On 16/04/2020 at 10:37, Alf Bentley said:

That is the disparity that I wanted to highlight in your posts. You (correctly) criticise China for its concealment. You criticise the WHO for its failings and delays - and make a good case for this. But then you don't want to prematurely criticise delays or failings by Western governments, even after it had become clear from other sources that human-to-human transmission was happening or when, on 30th Jan, the WHO belatedly declared it a Public Health Emergency of International Concern.

 

I'm criticising the WHO from a structural point of view, that what is the point of an organisation that can't actually perform its primary function at the start of a pandemic. That it was seemingly played by China and might possibly be subject to some form of 'capture' by China means its not fit for purpose. If it was largely unable to question China in a key phase of the pandemic then why is it being defended like the Vatican in the 1700s? It's not really useful from an institutional design point of view As for criticising China, its the barbarism of its actions. 

 

My point with holding off on criticism for other governments is you do not know the causal effect of the structures different governments are operating in. The point then extends out that until you understand why certain things happened and how structures, institutions, historical events, and societal design then you don't really know what the criticism should be. And if you don't seek to understand that, you won't learn after the event because you end up believing it to be the fault of individuals but you don't get close to understanding why individuals cocked up. 

 

 

They are the same point about structural issues. I did not blame individuals within WHO, it's just a far simpler organisation to look at than an entire country and its government. 

It's easy to blame politicians, it's much harder to understand how government actually works. I don't see the disparity personally

[urban.spaceman]

36 minutes ago, Izzy said:

People love a good blame don't they.

 

Not sure what it really achieves, but blame away til your hearts content...

Something Stephen Fry said in a debate a couple of years ago that has stayed with me.

 

"I believe one of the greatest failings in modern culture is to prefer to be right, than to be effective."

 

These days it's all about winning the argument and being morally superior, especially in hindsight, and if you don't agree you're a fascist.

[Leicester_Loyal]

14 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

The're on about paying front line workers an extra 29 quid a day, not even 3 packs of fags a day for putting your life at risk. How about double wages.

After all this is over NHS workers on the frontlne should definitely get a pay increase, there's no doubt about that. £29 a day though, over a 5 day week, over the course of 52 week year is about 7.5k, which is a huge increase. Healthcare workers know what they are signing up for when they take the job, and I say this as someone who has a close family member who is on the frontline. I'm confident once this is all over they'll be getting a payrise, hopefully a few percent as a minimum.

[StanSP]

 

 

[yorkie1999]

9 minutes ago, StanSP said:

 

 

That came out about a year ago.