Our Internationals 2020/21

[Foxxed]

Ooh. An injury and covid. Good things come in threes though.

[The whole world smiles]

3 minutes ago, shen said:

It's a bit random really. I'd just started seriously following English football and I had international friends who had family allegiances to Man Utd and Arsenal. As a young kid I wanted a team to follow as well and after a fun game of USM98 where I randomly picked Leicester, I wanted to check them out IRL. I was smitten by O'Neill and the success the team had had despite being unfancied and having almost exclusively British players - the underdog story was appealing to a Dane, as you could imagine. And never looked back ever since.

What a decision that was! Enough heartbreak to make you truly appreciate the glory we have had in a way man United and Liverpool fans could never understand

 

but not too much heartbreak and misery for too long so you end up questioning your life aka Coventry City! 

 

Have you been to any games through the years? 

[shen]

5 minutes ago, wyw said:

 

i'm having a heart attack fuuuuuuuuuuu

 

It's a bit mad. Tonny Vilhena (Netherlands), Thomas Kaminski (Belgium), Robert Skov (Denmark) and Munas Dabbur (Israel) have all also tested positive. The last two both play for Hoffenheim and they have sent their entire squad into quarantine after Bruun Larsen, Kramaric, Rudy and Belfodil also tested positive.

[Stinkenzo]

Through the eyes of UEFA the Nations League is a major tournament, certainly major enough for them not to just throw it in the bin because some old farts don't like change and will never admit to giving it a watch and/or liking it.

 

The extra friendly is absolutely bizarre though

[volpeazzurro]

42 minutes ago, gw_leics772 said:

After this break he will have likely played more games for them in about 3 weeks than for us since the season started! That is the reality, and as a non proud non irishman, I'm questioning it. 

We are so up on rotation and resting and we appear to be resting him mostly for them. 

You are entitled to your opinion. I'm asking a question of others. I can live with being in the minority and sounding like I'm not "caring" enough, but this the the brass tacks of it from what I can see and wondered what other people's take on it is. 

It's an emotive and subjective one this isn't it! (Having argued about it with a mate about it earlier today).

 

I can fully understand the ambition and pride to represent your country. However, the Premiership is the bread and butter. If a club has paid several million pounds to buy a player, pay him £50-100,000 per week then essentially he belongs to them to some extent. If a player is managing an injury then its absolutely a no go for me. If Evans and Fofana, both carrying niggles subsequently can't play for a few weeks it could have a big impact on our season and  if it was Vardy out for any length of time if he was still playing, it doesn't bare thinking about. 

 

European places or even relegation for various clubs could sometimes be gambled on meaningless friendlies. 

[shen]

6 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

What a decision that was! Enough heartbreak to make you truly appreciate the glory we have had in a way man United and Liverpool fans could never understand

 

but not too much heartbreak and misery for too long so you end up questioning your life aka Coventry City! 

 

Have you been to any games through the years? 

I think there was more than enough heartbreak with two relegations and the Watford debacle. Admittedly I was spared the play-off spectacles of the nineties, but still.
I've had plenty of weird looks throughout the years and the question "But..why?!" thrown at me many times when I mention who I support. Ever since the title win, I've had to convince people I hadn't just recently jumped on the bandwagon.

Unfortunately, I've only ever seen the team once live (with @MC Prussian) and that was when they played in Copenhagen during the CL campaign.
Still have my maiden visit to the KP stadium on my bucket list!

[les-tah]

51 minutes ago, Smudge said:

 

Looks like an impact injury and bruised muscle hopefully.. put him out for maybe turkey game but back for Liverpool.

[KFS]

27 minutes ago, les-tah said:

Looks like an impact injury and bruised muscle hopefully.. put him out for maybe turkey game but back for Liverpool.

Yeah if Covid doesn’t get him and Cags !

 

 

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 hour ago, shen said:

It's UEFA, not FIFA. Nations League was invented exactly because of the feedback that clubs (and international federations) wanted friendlies to be more meaningful. Now there's actually something at stake in those games, but still some are complaining? I will refer to my post further up as a counterargument, but it really just boils down to money and no parties willing to compromise.
FYI the friendlies that are being played now are postponed fixtures from about half a year ago.

 

I’m not complaining about the tournament per se. Sorry if you thought that. I think it was a good idea and one which has rekindled interest in the international game - I enjoy the competitive nature which is sometimes lacking from friendlies. However, this is a weird season and we do have a more established international tournament to take place come the summer - I think it’s key for that to go ahead. It’s club over international football - something’s got to give. Personally, I felt the league cup may be one that should’ve been re-jigged this year. 
 

To sum it up, I think with the injuries, positive tests and congestion of fixtures, something perhaps needs to be done to secure that football does continue with the competitive edge we all expect. Not a dig at the tournaments or innovation. Maybe in hindsight more time should’ve been given to how this shorter football calendar should’ve been handled to protect the game and still keep the fans fed with the many different forms of the games as possible. 

[shen]

8 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

I’m not complaining about the tournament per se. Sorry if you thought that. I think it was a good idea and one which has rekindled interest in the international game - I enjoy the competitive nature which is sometimes lacking from friendlies. However, this is a weird season and we do have a more established international tournament to take place come the summer - I think it’s key for that to go ahead. It’s club over international football - something’s got to give. Personally, I felt the league cup may be one that should’ve been re-jigged this year. 
 

To sum it up, I think with the injuries, positive tests and congestion of fixtures, something perhaps needs to be done to secure that football does continue with the competitive edge we all expect. Not a dig at the tournaments or innovation. Maybe in hindsight more time should’ve been given to how this shorter football calendar should’ve been handled to protect the game and still keep the fans fed with the many different forms of the games as possible. 

Completely agree. Which also makes the timing of the supposed European super league reveal by Bartomeu and Project Big Picture even more jarring, because it just emphasizes that the big clubs only think about themselves and their revenue. If anything, it proves that clubs will not cut down on their schedules unless their incentivised to do so. International football doesn't have near the same amount of money in it, but it is such an important part of football heritage and culture, which clubs also benefit from, so I'm not necessarily in the camp of 'club over international football'.

[Leicester_Loyal]

We'll lose at least one player through Covid isolation or an injury every international break, we may as well get used to it.

[Vardinio'sCat]

2 hours ago, shen said:

It's UEFA, not FIFA. Nations League was invented exactly because of the feedback that clubs (and international federations) wanted friendlies to be more meaningful. Now there's actually something at stake in those games, but still some are complaining? I will refer to my post further up as a counterargument, but it really just boils down to money and no parties willing to compromise.
FYI the friendlies that are being played now are postponed fixtures from about half a year ago.

 

It's a bit random really. I'd just started seriously following English football and I had international friends who had family allegiances to Man Utd and Arsenal. As a young kid I wanted a team to follow as well and after a fun game of USM98 where I randomly picked Leicester, I wanted to check them out IRL. I was smitten by O'Neill and the success the team had had despite being unfancied and having almost exclusively British players - the underdog story was appealing to a Dane, as you could imagine. And never looked back ever since.

 

A man of taste and discernment, clearly.

[NaijaFox]

3 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

I can’t work out why FIFA are so adamant on these internationals. I can understand Euro qualifiers, there’s a prestigious tournament to maintain. However, nation leagues and friendlies - why ? Players are dropping like flies. Fixture congestion and no money as no fans. What is the point. Just doesn’t seem like there’s any point.

 

3 hours ago, MarriedaLeicesterGirl said:

They would have to pay back TV money.

It's not just about TV money.

 

"These internationals" include the World Cup 2022 qualifiers for South American nations (FIFA and CONMEBOL) and AFCON qualifiers for African nations (CAF), which will likely play a role in their seedings for the final phase of their World Cup qualifiers. It would have also involved the World Cup qualifiers for Asia, which also doubles as qualifiers for the Asian Cup, if that had not been postponed (but still has to be during the season, as it must be completed by June 2021).

 

One could reasonably surmise that the each of WC, AFCON and Asian Cup is probably just as much a "prestigious tournament" for the countries involved as the Euros is for you.

 

Edited 12 November 2020 by NaijaFox

[Guest SO1]

On 06/11/2020 at 14:40, Detroit Blues said:

Some clarifications on the US Men's National Team (USMNT) posts. Why was Odunze called in?

 

Most of the players  selected were from European clubs due to COVID. This is not the squad that would be called up, for example, if we played a world cup qualifier. 

 

Second, this summer the US will participate in three concurrent competitions. The senior squad will be called in for the the Nations League (Semi-Final and Final), we'll have a "B Team" that plays against CONCACAF competition in the 2021 Gold Cup, and many of our U-23 players will be called in for the Olympics. We haven't qualified for the Olympics in the last two cycles, so it is considered a high priority.

 

In addition, due to COVID, the US Men's National Team hasn't played a single game since February 1st, 2020. That squad was a domestic only team because the camp takes place during the domestic off-season, which is outside the FIFA international break window. The last time our European club players have been called up was in November 2019. So we need to get a look at as many European based players as we can, for both the senior squad and the Olympic team. 

 

 

I think promising depends entirely on the context of what is expected. As an example, England is expected to field a team of world class players, and truly compete to win the World Cup. America is not

 

In the past, the US National team has generally qualified for world cup and then overperformed in international competition relative to the talent of the player pool based on team cohesion / tenacity. Our rag-tag group of players won the group England was in during the 2010 World Cup (shout out to Rob Green).  Our best players would play for smaller clubs in Europe, but most of the roster would be filled out by players from MLS. 

 

We've seen a trend / evolution of young Americans going to Europe over the last 5-6 years. Early pioneers would go over to Germany/Holland/Belgium to play for clubs that were willing to take a chance on developing young American players because they could get them for very cheap. In the last year or two, these early pioneers have proved themselves and have gotten transfers to  bigger clubs like Chelsea, Juventus, Barcelona, etc. Their clubs have replaced by bringing in more young American players. The best example is Pulisic leaving Dortmund and being replaced by Gio Reyna. But the key takeaway is that there are many 16-22 year old players that you've probably never heard of, playing in Europe and developing the technical skill and tactical awareness that American players rarely gain from playing in MLS. 

 

This is why we are in uncharted territory.  These players return to the US's youth teams to play in a modern / possession based system.  They've been successful at youth competitions like the U-20 world cup, making it to the quarterfinals in the last 3 cycles. The last part of the evolution, is to see if it translates to the senior team. The upcoming friendly against Wales is like Day 1 of working toward being a good team for 2022. 

 

 

 

Hmmm. Maybe it will be worth following if they play in a modern/possession based system as you say. Absolutely stunned when watching Marsch at RB Salzburg. Still hope for American football. I'll believe it when I see it and not fall asleep during it.

Edited 12 November 2020 by SO1

[CloudFox]

6 hours ago, NaijaFox said:

 

It's not just about TV money.

 

"These internationals" include the World Cup 2022 qualifiers for South American nations (FIFA and CONMEBOL) and AFCON qualifiers for African nations (CAF), which will likely play a role in their seedings for the final phase of their World Cup qualifiers. It would have also involved the World Cup qualifiers for Asia, which also doubles as qualifiers for the Asian Cup, if that had not been postponed (but still has to be during the season, as it must be completed by June 2021).

 

One could reasonably surmise that the each of WC, AFCON and Asian Cup is probably just as much a "prestigious tournament" for the countries involved as the Euros is for you.

 

You're completely right. Qualifiers and play offs I get, it's the friendlies that exasperate me right now.

[NaijaFox]

9 hours ago, The whole world smiles said:

Don't really get the outrage with the under injury he's not fully match fit. He's not done a full 90 yet he didn't feature at all v wolves. It was actually doing us a favour that he was playing tonight. Just an unfortunate injury not one you could put down to the crazy schedule as he has only started two European games for us so far! 

There's hardly "outrage" over Under playing for Turkey. On the contrary, most were glad about it.

However, there's near-universal dismay (distinction with a difference) over his injury. Injury is not inevitable.

[NaijaFox]

9 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

It's an emotive and subjective one this isn't it! (Having argued about it with a mate about it earlier today).

 

I can fully understand the ambition and pride to represent your country. However, the Premiership is the bread and butter. If a club has paid several million pounds to buy a player, pay him £50-100,000 per week then essentially he belongs to them to some extent. If a player is managing an injury then its absolutely a no go for me. If Evans and Fofana, both carrying niggles subsequently can't play for a few weeks it could have a big impact on our season and  if it was Vardy out for any length of time if he was still playing, it doesn't bare thinking about. 

 

European places or even relegation for various clubs could sometimes be gambled on meaningless friendlies. 

Since slavery is no longer legal , clubs sign players with the firm knowledge, understanding and agreement that they would be available for international games (unless and until they formally retire from same).

 

Furthermore, non-EU foreign players in the EPL have to play (or have played) a certain number of internationals over the most recent two-year (I think) period to qualify for a UK work permit. Let's take the good with the 'bad' (I personally do not consider international football a bad thing).

 

PS: Btw, national teams do not have the power to compel an injured player to play. However, they can request that their own medical staff verify such injuries (one supposes that the idea is to prevent clubs proclaiming dubious injuries). 

[volpeazzurro]

6 minutes ago, NaijaFox said:

Since slavery is no longer legal , clubs sign players with the firm knowledge, understanding and agreement that they would be available for international games (unless and until they formally retire from same).

 

Furthermore, non-EU foreign players in the EPL have to play (or have played) a certain number of internationals over the most recent two-year (I think) period to qualify for a UK work permit. Let's take the good with the 'bad' (I personally do not consider international football a bad thing).

 

PS: Btw, national teams do not have the power to compel an injured player to play. However, they can request that their own medical staff verify such injuries (one supposes that the idea is to prevent clubs proclaiming dubious injuries). 

I don't disagree to some extent and understand the arguments but, when a player like Evans has a dodgy back which he appeared to aggravate in the last match, then theres Fofana's supposed knee problem also, at what point should a club step in because understandably, a player will always usually want to play. Under is supposedly now injured to some degree playing international football and if Evans and Fofana get crocked that could really derail our good start. At what point does the club, who invest millions, come before player and country. If a player is nursing injury the risk increases significantly yet they no doubt they still expect to draw their full wages. Important internationals may be one thing but meaningless friendlies quite another, particularly in a pandemic. It's not all about what the player wants surely, they appear completely cosseted with no comeback. To me, if a player goes ahead when knowingly carrying injury and subsequently puts himself out of club football for several weeks he should forfeit his wages until fit. Club always comes first for me. International football is usually a drab diversion the quality of football on show often questionable. 

[harpendenfox]

8 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

We'll lose at least one player through Covid isolation or an injury every international break, we may as well get used to it.

This is the last international break for a few months thank goodness

[NaijaFox]

31 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

I don't disagree to some extent and understand the arguments but, when a player like Evans has a dodgy back which he appeared to aggravate in the last match, then theres Fofana's supposed knee problem also, at what point should a club step in because understandably, a player will always usually want to play. Under is supposedly now injured to some degree playing international football and if Evans and Fofana get crocked that could really derail our good start. At what point does the club, who invest millions, come before player and country. If a player is nursing injury the risk increases significantly yet they no doubt they still expect to draw their full wages. Important internationals may be one thing but meaningless friendlies quite another, particularly in a pandemic. It's not all about what the player wants surely, they appear completely cosseted with no comeback. To me, if a player goes ahead when knowingly carrying injury and subsequently puts himself out of club football for several weeks he should forfeit his wages until fit. Club always comes first for me. International football is usually a drab diversion the quality of football on show often questionable. 

As already noted, lots of players depend on international football for work eligibility, and so many others for visibility, reputation and marketability. Being an international can actually translate into real Euros for so many players (and even career longevity for some). 

 

Nonetheless, I seriously doubt that injured players (including even those with minor injuries) would insist on playing any and all international games, and neither is there any rational reason to believe that national teams would want injured players to play for them - unless in absolutely crucial competitive games. Even then, as previously noted, nations cannot compel injured players to play. The most they can do is to insist on verifying the injury.

 

PS: Btw, there are hardly any substantively "meaningless" friendlies, since national teams use friendlies for the same reason that clubs do - preparation for competitive games. Nonetheless, given the Covid season, common sense should have ideally kept friendlies to the barest minimum this season, even if not completely eliminated them (as there still would be a need to prepare for the Euros almost immediately post-season).   

Edited 12 November 2020 by NaijaFox

[Mickyblueeyes]

7 hours ago, NaijaFox said:

 

It's not just about TV money.

 

"These internationals" include the World Cup 2022 qualifiers for South American nations (FIFA and CONMEBOL) and AFCON qualifiers for African nations (CAF), which will likely play a role in their seedings for the final phase of their World Cup qualifiers. It would have also involved the World Cup qualifiers for Asia, which also doubles as qualifiers for the Asian Cup, if that had not been postponed (but still has to be during the season, as it must be completed by June 2021).

 

One could reasonably surmise that the each of WC, AFCON and Asian Cup is probably just as much a "prestigious tournament" for the countries involved as the Euros is for you.

 

Read what I’ve said - I’m talking specifically about friendlies and the nations league. I can understand the games being played for major and historic tournament qualification. What I’m suggesting is in these uncertain times, games that perhaps could give way are ones where we do not lose a prestigious (And historic) knock out tournament at the end of it - with these current times - a national tournament can only be good. 
 

The nation league could perhaps be postponed for a year (as the euros were) without losing anything. 
 

On your final paragraph.  My background means I have interest in AFCON as much as the Euros. Unfortunately the team I follow never qualifies! 

[NaijaFox]

13 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Read what I’ve said - I’m talking specifically about friendlies and the nations league. I can understand the games being played for major and historic tournament qualification. What I’m suggesting is in these uncertain times, games that perhaps could give way are ones where we do not lose a prestigious (And historic) knock out tournament at the end of it - with these current times - a national tournament can only be good. 
 

The nation league could perhaps be postponed for a year (as the euros were) without losing anything. 
 

On your final paragraph.  My background means I have interest in AFCON as much as the Euros. Unfortunately the team I follow never qualifies! 

We could be both holding substantively the same position (see my other posts on the thread), but you did say "these internationals" (as I specifically highlighted) rather than friendlies. Cheers.

[Scotch]

24 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Read what I’ve said - I’m talking specifically about friendlies and the nations league. I can understand the games being played for major and historic tournament qualification. What I’m suggesting is in these uncertain times, games that perhaps could give way are ones where we do not lose a prestigious (And historic) knock out tournament at the end of it - with these current times - a national tournament can only be good. 
 

The nation league could perhaps be postponed for a year (as the euros were) without losing anything. 
 

On your final paragraph.  My background means I have interest in AFCON as much as the Euros. Unfortunately the team I follow never qualifies! 

The nations league can and does lead to qualification for one of the big tournaments though....

[leicesterseddon]

Surely Evans won’t play in all three NI games this time?

 

I mean obviously he’ll play in the Euros qualifier tonight, but the other two?

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 hour ago, Foxy_Bear said:

The nations league can and does lead to qualification for one of the big tournaments though....

Good point, well made sir. I didn't realise they allowed a form of qualification to the major tournaments. Point still stands on the friendlies being played. 

 

1 hour ago, NaijaFox said:

We could be both holding substantively the same position (see my other posts on the thread), but you did say "these internationals" (as I specifically highlighted) rather than friendlies. Cheers.

I did go on to reference friendlies (and the Nation League but have been corrected on that point). You assumed that I was belittling other competitive international tournaments in comparison to the Euros.